What to say to a fundy-lite friend?

[ADoyle90815]

34 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

Sometimes you just need to smile and say, "Isn't that nice?" when your brain is screaming WHAT THE *^#^&@ ARE YOU THINKING???

 

Go and be supportive to your friend.   

It would be fine to for her to say to her daughter, Listen, I've made many mistakes in my life and I would hate to see you make the same ones.   While I don't regret having YOU, I do regret that I was so young when it happened. 

Considering they are fundie catholics will the daughter not use birth control?    

 

That's true, sometimes when you just smile at certain things, your brain is screaming "WTF ARE YOU THINKING???" I'd probably go and support the friend, since if that friend needs to vent, I'd prefer to be there if necessary.

[Jingerbread]

I thought I already said somewhere above that I'd go and show up later to minimize my time there, but there's an update.

She came over after early mass today, and just left a few minutes ago.  She has an out on the hypocrisy front.  The boy wants her daughter to convert to baptist, and her daughter isn't really comfortable with that part, and no, this didn't come out until last night!  My friend thought the wedding would happen in the Catholic church.  I'm not really sure how that works, and we didn't get into it, but my parents, one Catholic and one Baptist, managed to have something done so their marriage, with didn't actually happen inside a church, was acknowledged by the Catholic church. I didn't even think until just now about how the religions of the kids match the religions of my parents, only the fundy bits of my childhood were very light. 

And so my friend no longer feels hypocritical trying to talk her out of it, and her daughter's pretty startled that she is expected to make a religious change she doesn't want.   Daughter was on board with giving up college to start having kids, but changing religions is a bigger deal.  So now there's a crack.

My friend started crying in relief since she no longer has to try to suppress her feelings about this.  She does't want her daughter trapped the way religion's trapped her, and she said something that hit me hard.  She's jealous of people who don't share her beliefs since people like me can take the actions necessary to have happier lives without fear of damnation.  I didn't feel required to stay with my ex when things got bad the way she feel trapped, and that she thinks her daughter would feel trapped because of the way she had to raise her because of religion.

It's hard to believe that a church headed by someone who says that churches that don't help should be taxed can have people on another extreme end like this.  But Baptists range from joyous people who dance and are "moved by the spirit" in churches on down to Gothard's followers who see any body movement as tempting into sin.

[QuittersTry]

^^^^^^ figured that would happen...sigh some Catholics forget that they're not only conservatives in town. 

 

Seriously, your friend needs to read everything from Vatican ii on ward about repentance and forgiveness of sin. I don't think she understands "damnation" right. Maybe guilt, but that is her choice, not what the Catholic Church actually teaches any more.

 

Pope Francis is actually working quite diligently to help divorced Catholics stay in good standing with the church. Most divorces do not qualify for annulments, divorcees lusting or having a sexual relationship out of marriage is a sin, you can't take communion if you are sinning, not taking communion/not honoring the Sabbath every Sunday is a sin. So you can see how potentially good Catholics get stuck in "sin limbo" upon divorce. 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-weighs-response-to-setback-on-divorce-issue-1445809918

[Jingerbread]

I wish I could read that article.  It's saying to sign in.  Some other friends of ours from high school go to her same church, and aren't so strict on most things.  I don't get why she is.  Isn's abuse considered unevenly yoked?

[QuittersTry]

Google the words in the link and you should be able to read it outside the pay wall ( I don't have a wsj subscription either). I googled "pope francis divorce".  I think your friend has a case of Catholic martyr syndrome. She likes feeling trapped by her religion so she doesn't have to take action or go outside her comfort zone. It's proly a coping mechanism she learned way back when she found herself "whoops pregnant." She really needs your help now more than ever!!!!

[onlyme]

I haven't read all the comments above, so forgive me if I repeat anything. But I thought I would give my experience, as my oldest friend from high school could have written this post about me around 20 years ago. I was the one that went into fundy-land after our very close teen age years of aspiring to be Dead Heads together, partying, having our first apt. together etc.

In short, I think I dove into fundy-land because of the guilt I felt over damage in my family I was blaming myself for, and because I freaked myself out with how self destructive I was in high school. I think fundy-land kept me safe. 

I know there were lots of times I really hurt her. We did drift pretty far apart, but she was always my friend and we always considered ourselves friends. If I invited her to something, she would come. I wasn't confrontational, but we did argue over stuff like the Iraq war. And I did judge her for some of her life decisions and I'm sure she rolled her eyes at me more than once. But still, we were friends. For years we would talk maybe once or twice a year. 

Now I have repented, lol, of all the fundy-dom stuff, and as fate, God, life, the universe, would have it, she lives down the street from me. We've been able to talk a lot about what I went through. She's the only close person I have in my life that knew me "before" and that has been so valuable to me. She knew my family, knew all my problems, etc. She's said things like "I have you back!"

I do think people who had other thought patterns before fundy-land have a better chance of escaping. I have things I can go back to. And it's helpful to me to have someone who can relate to me as I was as a 20 yr old (which was very alternative, free spirit, into art..) rather than only be able to talk to me as a fundy. I just don't insert agreements where they expect, laugh at the same things, anything like that anymore. 

So, just saying, you never know.

[DaffyDill]

I think the longer the wedding is delayed, the more likely it is that the relationship between the two teens will just run it's natural course, and possibly end anyway.

The more adults try and intervene and push them apart, the more the kids will cling together; teens can be contrary little beings.

Tacitly supporting them doesn't actually encourage them, but doesn't make them even more attractive to one another and drive them together to spite their parents.

[bean]

What a relief that an issue has come up without her having to take a really uncomfortable stand. 

And if the engagement stays  on anyway and the party is still a thing, I think your plan to go for a short time is totally reasonable. You're supporting your friend, but not whooping it up like you're actually excited about it.

Crossing my fingers for you that the situation resolves itself. And that maybe your friend decides "to hell with damnation, I want to be happy now."

[Jingerbread]

Brief update: Friend's husband is no longer so onboard, and it's because the boy expects the bride-to-be to leave Catholicism.  Friend's husband isn't willing to sign for one year now, instead of June.  Daughter's pretty mad about that, and swears they're getting married anyway, but she's still not comfortable leaving her religion as a mandatory thing.

Bean, I'm trying to talk her into talking to her priest.  I don't think the bible requires staying together even when there's abuse.  I think that abuse and a spouse no longer believing are the two grounds for divorce being acceptable.

[princessmahina]

32 minutes ago, Jingerbread said:

Brief update: Friend's husband is no longer so onboard, and it's because the boy expects the bride-to-be to leave Catholicism.  Friend's husband isn't willing to sign for one year now, instead of June.  Daughter's pretty mad about that, and swears they're getting married anyway, but she's still not comfortable leaving her religion as a mandatory thing.

Bean, I'm trying to talk her into talking to her priest.  I don't think the bible requires staying together even when there's abuse.  I think that abuse and a spouse no longer believing are the two grounds for divorce being acceptable.

Has your friend checked out all the grounds for an annulment? If she married because she was pregnant, I think that's considered grounds:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Sep1998/feature1.asp#F3

It seems as though both pregnancy and abuse would fall under #1, "Lack of Discretion."

[socalrules]

Although the daughter is fighting it, she might actually be relieved that her parents are against it. When you are a teenager, you dig your heels in for every fight but it doesn't mean that you aren't looking for someone to give you an out. 

[Jingerbread]

Thanks, Mahina.  I'll be sending that to her in a minute.  Her being pregnant was 100% of why they got married.

[Idolatry]

Don't underestimate this girl's intelligence or her ability to make choices for herself.  It's not like she's been locked on a compound like the Duggars.  She's been at public school, had the internet, seen enough to know enough to make her own choices.  At 14, once exposed to public school, I knew I needed out that crap religion, and I would do anything to get there.  It took me years to execute that mission.

Even if she does get married and pregnant this young, you know that this does not doom her, and she can still make plenty of non-fundie choices.  I guess I don't see the daughter's choices as that big of a deal, like you do.  Getting married that young generally results in a rude awakening of some sort and some tough life choices.  Those choices might be to be fundie, as lots of people do chose intentionally.

Now, her mother sounds like a trainwreck.  I would have exited that friendship a loooong time ago.  But if you made it this far, shut your mouth and go to the party and just drop the whole topic.  I assume you have a vagina, so your opinion isn't very valuable anyway.

[Jingerbread]

1 hour ago, Idolatry said:

Don't underestimate this girl's intelligence or her ability to make choices for herself.  It's not like she's been locked on a compound like the Duggars.  She's been at public school, had the internet, seen enough to know enough to make her own choices.  At 14, once exposed to public school, I knew I needed out that crap religion, and I would do anything to get there.  It took me years to execute that mission.

Even if she does get married and pregnant this young, you know that this does not doom her, and she can still make plenty of non-fundie choices.  I guess I don't see the daughter's choices as that big of a deal, like you do.  Getting married that young generally results in a rude awakening of some sort and some tough life choices.  Those choices might be to be fundie, as lots of people do chose intentionally.

Now, her mother sounds like a trainwreck.  I would have exited that friendship a loooong time ago.  But if you made it this far, shut your mouth and go to the party and just drop the whole topic.  I assume you have a vagina, so your opinion isn't very valuable anyway.

At 16, the brain is still years away from full development.  It's definitely a big deal with teenaged children want to get married and pregnant before they can support even themselves.  No one should be supporting anyone conceiving babies on purpose if they can't already support themselves.  I'm not sure where you fall on the socioeconomic spectrum, but many young adults who are years older than these kids are struggling to find jobs and childcare.  Do you really think teens are going to be capable of providing for a baby?  How many individual teens can support a spouse and kid?  If they both work, how will they pay for childcare?  The choices of teenagers become the responsibility of parents.  Getting married as a teen these days isn't like getting married as a teen fifty years ago.  Times are very different, and many adults with many more years of work experience are struggling just to not starve to death.  What change can teens expect to have unless the plan is to have their parents support their kids?  I think it's a travesty to support kids having kids and not see a problem with it.

[QuittersTry]

Jingerbread, so glad you are encouraging your friend to speak to her priest. I am sure he is completely unaware of the guilt and pain she is carrying with her. It is a totally unnecessary burden. There is nothing in the Catholic religion  that says she physically has to stay with her husband. Its the sexual sin that comes after divorce that the church objects to. Your friend could always separate from the husband and remain celibate.

Just fyi, annulments take years to arrange from start to finish. Most Catholics get legally divorced/separated before hearing back from Rome.

Even if your friend cannot get an annulment, I know many divorced Catholics who have amazing faith and are confident in their salvation. Women whose husbands abandoned them (and men whose wives did the abandoning), who developed addictions, who ruined family finances. How did they sin, simply by choosing  the wrong partner?

For example, a close family friend---her husband became addicted to porn, had several affairs, couldn't hold a job and spent money lavishly while unemployed. None of it was grounds for an annulment.  She spoke openly to her priest, he told her to protect herself (and her children) legally and financially first, worry about the church later. The church is not an institution for pain and suffering!

[Hane]

@QuittersTry, thank you for your one-zillion-percent-accurate commentary on Roman Catholic law and marriage/divorce/annulment. I have been through all of it (was a devout Catholic until my fifties): pre-Cana, sacramental marriage, divorce, annulment process, remarriage in a civil ceremony, "blessing" of the marriage by my priest. (And then another divorce and not bothering with the annulment process because I was just OVER it by then.)

When my parents got engaged back in the '40s, Mom was Catholic and Dad was Baptist. Mom would have been content to marry in the rectory, as "mixed" couples did back then, but Dad was interested in the Catholic religion and decided to convert out of the old-fashioned conviction that a "gentleman" followed his wife's faith--so they had a nuptial Mass at church.

i think Jingerbread's friend is making shizz up in her head about Catholic teachings, and should be having some in-depth discussion with her priest. She also should be reading the new Catholic catechism that came out under John Paul II.

I wish I knew what this gal's priest is thinking about this whole trainwreck.

[QuittersTry]

Yes, either that or her husband is using common misinterpretations of Catholic doctrine to control his wife. The whole thing really pisses me off.

[louisa05]

When I worked at Christian school, there was a couple that had been dating through most of high school. He was about to graduate and she was a junior, so they decided they should just get married that summer. Their parents went along with this whole thing and an engagement was announced in about March. 

However, the school had a written policy that married students could not attend. No exceptions. Her parents went to the school board begging for an exception so they could get married in June and she could still come for her senior year. The board, quite sensibly, said no. (And being honest, I figured they would allow it--everyone there was always preaching that young marriage is the best way to prevent premarital sex). 

The girl chose graduating with her class at the school she had attended since 2nd grade over the quick marriage and they declared that they would delay their wedding by one year. He went to a college in the same city. 

They broke up in October of her senior year and by the time of the fake-prom (no dancing but a cheesy formal event was held anyway), she had a new boyfriend. 

A delay may be the end of the whole thing. 

[QuittersTry]

Yeah...to me, the cultural implications of marrying outside of Catholicism are going to be too high for the daughter to get married anytime soon. It's very naive of this woman to not anticipate that there would be pressure for her daughter to convert. It all sounds very "Romeo & Juliet" now, but the young couple really needs a good pre-marital counseling program. 

They are already hitting speed bumps over where/which denomination the wedding will be. What about children's baptism...is it done as an infant or as a young adult? Will male babies be circumcised? Which parents (grandparents) do you spend Christmas Day with? Is there a santa for the kids? What about Easter Sunday? Is there an Easter egg hunt? Do the children go trick or treating? Celebrate feast days? Have patron Saints? 

Right now, one of the few religious views that they share is "no pre-marital sex". That is what is keeping them together now.  After marriage, that conviction will be irrelevant to them as a couple.

Keep dating, keep the ring but call it a "promise ring", finish school, figure what kind of marriage they BOTH want.

[manda b]

I just couldn't imagine being sixteen years old and wanting to make a life long commitment to somebody who was just seventeen.

[Hane]

31 minutes ago, manda b said:

I just couldn't imagine being sixteen years old and wanting to make a life long commitment to somebody who was just seventeen.

Me neither. When I was in high school in the late '60s, I knew two married girls, neither of whom "had to because she was pregnant." One came from a very conservative Russian Orthodox family, and one was just a wingnut.

[manda b]

43 minutes ago, Hane said:

Me neither. When I was in high school in the late '60s, I knew two married girls, neither of whom "had to because she was pregnant." One came from a very conservative Russian Orthodox family, and one was just a wingnut.

I was doing good to get dressed and be at school on time...

[elliha]

I don't think they should get married so young but I do think you can find your life partner that early sometimes. In my family my sister and two oldest brothers all found their partner when they and their partner were between 15 and 19. None of them married before their early twenties though. All of them are still married. My youngest brother and me found our partners at 25 and 27 and while I am married and do not plan to divorce my brother divorced his wife about 2 years ago. 

[Jingerbread]

12 hours ago, QuittersTry said:

Yes, either that or her husband is using common misinterpretations of Catholic doctrine to control his wife. The whole thing really pisses me off.

This is what I think is going on.  In the last few years, she's gone from favoring women's rights more (though still not abortion) to women are submissive to men in all things, and she's stopped thinking independently and no longer makes decisions without consulting her husband.  I know there's more going on than she's telling me.

She's going to talk to her priest this weekend.  I've offered to go with her, and she said she'll let me know if she does.  At least, for right now, the wedding is stalled, and that's now openly a relief to her.  I hope her priest will give her relief too.

[Mama Mia]

On December 29, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Jingerbread said:

At 16, the brain is still years away from full development.  It's definitely a big deal with teenaged children want to get married and pregnant before they can support even themselves.  No one should be supporting anyone conceiving babies on purpose if they can't already support themselves.  I'm not sure where you fall on the socioeconomic spectrum, but many young adults who are years older than these kids are struggling to find jobs and childcare.  Do you really think teens are going to be capable of providing for a baby?  How many individual teens can support a spouse and kid?  If they both work, how will they pay for childcare?  The choices of teenagers become the responsibility of parents.  Getting married as a teen these days isn't like getting married as a teen fifty years ago.  Times are very different, and many adults with many more years of work experience are struggling just to not starve to death.  What change can teens expect to have unless the plan is to have their parents support their kids?  I think it's a travesty to support kids having kids and not see a problem with it.

You seem to have REALLY strong opinions about this. Given how vehmenently oppose you are to teen/ young marriage and parenting I'm really surprised you've been able to keep your feelings from your friend. 

Im curious as to why you are so upset at the idea that parents would help support their young   Adult children and their kids - if it is desired by all involved? Childcare , in particular, is often provided by extended family, or switched off between spouses. In my area it is not all that uncommon for multiple generations to live together - on purpose! Or for the middle aged grandparents to provide the extras,  grand and great grands to provide childcare ---and know their kids will Help them with what they need . As long as the young parents are working towards something, and not just partying, what is wrong with that?