What to say to a fundy-lite friend?

[Jingerbread]

I have a friend who used to not be fundy at all.  In high school, she got pregnant, and she and the dad got married when they were 17, and it's been a rough ride since then.  They both became Catholic fundies.  She's allowed to work, and their oldest daughter is allowed to date with a chaperone (and even hug!), and the kids go to public school, but otherwise very fundy.  Her soul will be damned if she leaves someone who abuses her in all ways but physical.  She wishes she would have been a single mother since there's forgiveness for that, but not for divorce.

Her oldest daughter got engaged yesterday, and she says she has to be happy for her daughter otherwise she'd be a hypocrite for being married at 17 when her parents had to sign, while disapproving of her daughter being engaged at 16 with the plan to be married this summer, right after she turns 17, and refusing to sign for her.  I think there's nothing wrong with telling your minor child you made a mistake jumping into marriage so fast, so I don't think she's a hypocrite.

She's trying to be a supportive mom to avoid the label of a hypocrite.  This is so important to her since she believes the only people Jesus hates are hypocrites.  She's putting together an engagement party for two weeks from today, and I am on the guest list.  

We were best friends in high school, when I was the church-going Christian and she thought religion was stupid, and it's funny how that's changed.  Our friendship was challenged, and even ended for a couple years, because of how both of us shifting to the other side made us look at each other and ourselves.  But in high school, I was the first person to be told she might be pregnant, and was with her when she took a pregnancy test in the school bathroom.  I was the only person to know for a couple weeks that she was pregnant while she worked up guts to tell her parents and the father.  So I've been there from the start.

But it doesn't feel right to support a teen marriage that has its basis in any sort of fundamentalism.  I'm not sure what to say to my friend because of this.  I don't know if I should decline the invitation and not say why, decline the invitation and say why, or ignore my gut and heart and go celebrate and call this upcoming wedding a great thing.  If the daughter's as fertile as her mother, she'll be a mother herself by graduation, if she even stays in school.  The boy wants an at-home wife, and no, he doesn't have a way to support a wife and child, or even himself.  He just turned 17 earlier this month.

Guide me, FJ.  I feel like I'm stepping in a mine field where any small misstep could lead to an explosion.

 

[LadyPriss]

Your friend is an adult.  If she asks for your opinion, that's when you can say something.  But I wouldn't go further than saying 'don't you think it's a bit early?' or 'do you think she is ready?'  

I'd say go to the engagement party.  You never know what may happen between now and the summer.  

[bean]

I agree with LadyPriss, I'd go to the party. Be a safe, non judgemental place where your friend can talk. Odds are pretty good that her daughter is making a mistake, but nobody is doing anything illegal and if your friend feels judged by you, she'll distance herself. And you aren't likely to change anybody's mind by protesting anyway. 

I feel for you though, it's got to be a tough situation to watch!

[Gimme a Free RV]

It's hard to stand by and watch people you love make mistakes.  (I know all to well.)

I think @LadyPriss gave an excellent response.  Sometimes, we just have to smile and "be there" for our loved ones, even if we don't agree with their decisions.  

[Rubaiyat]

As hard as it sounds like it is (I'd be going bugnuts) I'm on board the Hang in There But Try to Stay Neutral train.  It's entirely possibly - even likely - that this situation will end in tears and heartache, and your friend will need a sympathetic ear, or an escape plan!  It feels impossible to turn to people who said "I told you so" (and that's not at all what you're saying!) but it's much softer landing when you run to a friend who's stood by you even when they didn't agree with your foolishness.  

It would be so much easier if she were making a smaller stupid decision, like buying a used El Camino with her college money!?  Why can't we all be smarter stupid teenagers?!?  Says the woman who barely made it through her 20s with her...anything...in tact!  Every time my lovely fudie-light friend tells me that "Jesus saves," I think "whelp, that should save her [my friend] some heartache."  Heh.   

[doggie]

as others say sometimes the best you can do is grin and bear it. just like a good christian 

[scozzle]

1 hour ago, Jingerbread said:

But it doesn't feel right to support a teen marriage that has its basis in any sort of fundamentalism.  I'm not sure what to say to my friend because of this.

While your friend and her family might emulate what we understand to be a fundy-type lifestyle, her circumstances seem by no means typical of Catholicism. Your friend's daughter might be wanting to get married at such a young age because of the religious culture she has been raised in, but her mother should be under no theological/doctrinal obligation to support her daughter's marriage. 

This sort of dilemma, as difficult as it might be when there is such a conflict, must come down to your relationship with your friend. Clearly you feel very strongly on this matter (and justifiable so) and it is legitimate to voice your concerns on the matter. In this sort of situation, is that really going to achieve anything though? While getting married so young seems unwise, its neither illegal nor immoral. It would seem to me that you would be better off supporting your friend through your attendance (the poor woman sounds like she could really benefit from it) than cause a potential rift in your relationship at a time in which she is already "losing" someone very precious to her.

[SolomonFundy]

You can love and support a person without loving or supporting their lifestyle. 

You've been friends with this woman since you were a child yourself, and in that time, it sounds like the two of you have rarely (if ever) been on the same page ideologically. Yet, you call her "friend", and are close enough to receive a phone call about her daughter's engagement on the day after the event takes place. You've been able to preserve this friendship despite having grave reservations about her life choices and belief system for the past two decades.

If you value your friendship enough to remain in contact all of this time, I suspect you care enough to feel a genuine sense of regret about declining an invitation for this party. If you do feel that way, then I personally think you should go and support your friend and her child. You don't have to endorse or like their choices in order to accept an invitation. The celebration is meant to honor the love between two young people (however ill-advised by most standards), not a belief system. You're there for your friend and her daughter, not as a representative for the Logic and Reason Delegation.

 

If, after consideration, you come to the conclusion that you can not attend this party because of your misgivings, I would call as soon as possible and tell her that you have a pre-existing commitment that will prevent you from attending. It's really not appropriate to tell your friend the truth about why you don't want to go. Unless you have reason to believe than any aspect of this engagement is illegal or non-consensual, I think civility is the best course of action, whether you go or choose to sit it out. 

 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I agree with the above posters. But I would try to  make her reason through something she may be willing to listen to.  You could ask what their priest and their friends parishioners think about this marriage, marrying at 16 is not required by Catholicism and would be frowned upon by any Catholic (even fundie) of my knowledge.  Or if she doesn't feel a bigger hypocrite witholding from her daughter an advice she would like someone had given to her teen self. If you want her to listen to you though, she must feel you are very understanding,  sympathetic and non-judgemental towards her or her daughter. BTW if she thinks that the marriage is a shitty idea but is saying it's wonderful,  well that's an outright lie, not something Jeebus approved of.

[lawfulevil]

If it's any comfort, I knew a lot of couples who got "engaged" in high school- some with rings and all. Including me. A few even had parent-hosted "engagement parties". Most of us were no longer together by senior prom.

Why? I think it was really common in my high school due to the idea that marriage = having sex. My parents still have a, uh, charming letter from that ex about why we should get back together. It's a page and a half of mostly plagiarized poetry, but the last (most honest) line is "I'm tired of being a virgin".

The absolute worst thing you can do is publicly disapprove- that just gives the young couple a common enemy. That ex and I lasted just over a year, and I think it was only because our parents loathed each other (and us as a couple) and kept us apart as much as humanly possible. If they'd just let it run its course we'd have been sick of each other in 6 weeks.

[Jingerbread]

What makes this so tricky for me is that we've been able to openly disagree with each other on pretty much everything from abortion to gay rights, and have preferred honesty to lying.  We can call each other out on some pretty major things, and it's been okay, and has strengthened our friendship in the end.  Making an appearance of support is kind of like lying, and that's really hard when our friendship has been about pretty brutal honesty.  I wouldn't have any problem telling her my extreme misgivings if it wasn't for how clearly she already seems to have them herself.  When her reason for support is that she was married so young herself and not being supportive would make her, in her eyes, a hypocrite, this time it doesn't feel I can be honest since she's in a fragile place, but she also trusts that I'll be honest.  This is the first time when it feels like neither direction is the right direction.  Going and giving an appearance of support is what we'd consider to a lie between us, but not going would support the misgivings I know she has and might make her need support herself.  I can't be sure right now if what she even might be hoping for is for me to tell her this is a bad idea so maybe she can feel okay saying it herself.  It's a rock and a hard place for both of us.  It also doesn't help that her husband is a raging asshole with a black belt and he's put holes in the wall, though hasn't hit anyone yet.  Her daughter might be motivated by this being a chance to get out of the house, which adds another element of complication.  Of course I support the kid wanting to get away, but she's going to trap herself in another situation that's hard to get out of.

I know this isn't typical of Catholicism.  I was never Catholic, but my extended family is, and when an aunt got married at 18, everyone said that was very young.

Unless I get sick (fingers crossed for the flu again), maybe I'll tell her that I've got unspecified misgivings, but will be there, then show up a bit late to minimize how long I'm there.  Is that an okay compromise?

[lawlifelgbt]

I'm actually not opposed to young marriage or young(er) child-having, since I believe a lasting relationship helps people mature, and it's good to grow together. Also, having children young significantly enhances fertility and reduces chances of genetic diseases, disability, or having a health condition or medication that the mother has that could harm the baby. I believe society should support things like debt-free college and house-buying assistance so people can marry and have kids young if they like. People rise to the expectations and roles expected of them, and marriage and children, I think, helps make more functional, mature adults, rather than the stereotypical "coddled" Millenial (oh, how I hate that idea!)

I also married young and with parental disapproval. But, when I mean "young", I am meaning that I was 23, and that a "young" marriage is somewhere around 21-26. But 18 is WAY too young. My grandmother married at 19 and my mother at 22, but this was before higher education was considered a necessity to get a living-wage job (and parents did finish college first). But, given how crucial education is now, and how much college and just finishing forming one's prefrontal cortex can change a person, I don't think that anyone should get married before graduating (or nearly being done) with higher ed.

Could you raise misgivings in the context of the daughter's plans for the future and what they might do? Maybe college isn't on the daughter's radar, but she might have other plans or it could be better to take more time to mature first. If your friend is intelligent, you could even tell her what I said- the prefrontal cortex, involving judgment and planning, does not finish forming and maturing until about 21, so her daughter may not be in a good headspace to make this decision.

But, overall, I would avoid fighting and try to remain supportive of, at least, your friend. She's in a tough spot and doesn't need more drama.

[EmCatlyn]

50 minutes ago, Jingerbread said:

What makes this so tricky for me is that we've been able to openly disagree with each other on pretty much everything from abortion to gay rights, and have preferred honesty to lying.  We can call each other out on some pretty major things, and it's been okay, and has strengthened our friendship in the end.  Making an appearance of support is kind of like lying, and that's really hard when our friendship has been about pretty brutal honesty.  I wouldn't have any problem telling her my extreme misgivings if it wasn't for how clearly she already seems to have them herself.  When her reason for support is that she was married so young herself and not being supportive would make her, in her eyes, a hypocrite, this time it doesn't feel I can be honest since she's in a fragile place, but she also trusts that I'll be honest.  This is the first time when it feels like neither direction is the right direction.  Going and giving an appearance of support is what we'd consider to a lie between us, but not going would support the misgivings I know she has and might make her need support herself.  I can't be sure right now if what she even might be hoping for is for me to tell her this is a bad idea so maybe she can feel okay saying it herself.  It's a rock and a hard place for both of us.  It also doesn't help that her husband is a raging asshole with a black belt and he's put holes in the wall, though hasn't hit anyone yet.  Her daughter might be motivated by this being a chance to get out of the house, which adds another element of complication.  Of course I support the kid wanting to get away, but she's going to trap herself in another situation that's hard to get out of.

I know this isn't typical of Catholicism.  I was never Catholic, but my extended family is, and when an aunt got married at 18, everyone said that was very young.

Unless I get sick (fingers crossed for the flu again), maybe I'll tell her that I've got unspecified misgivings, but will be there, then show up a bit late to minimize how long I'm there.  Is that an okay compromise?

 

You are the best judge of what your friendship can endure, but I think if you convey your misgivings and encourage your friend to think through the situation without coming across as judgmental, you may help your friend and her daughter.  

I agree with those who say that you should not tell your friend you won't go to the party because you have misgivings.  But you could say to your friend that you will go to the party because you wish the engaged girl all the best in life, but that you are concerned about such a young marriage.

From what you told us, your friend got married so young because she was pregnant.  Her daughter is not pregnant, is she?  Then it is not hypocritical for her to say to her daughter that marrying before you are old enough to vote is a bad idea.

As someone else has pointed out, the mother is in a really good position to discuss the disadvantages of a too-young marriage and the problems young mothers face.  Financial considerations and (if it applies) the importance of finishing highschool are two reasons that the parental voice of experience can bring forward for delaying the marriage another year.

JMHO

[Jingerbread]

Lawwifelgbt, I agree that getting married in early and mis 20's isn't a bad thing.  People usually know who they are as adults and how they respond to different stressful situations, but aren't so set in their ways that learning to bend later is very hard.  If her daughter was 21, 22, 23, in that range, I don't think there'd be any concerns from anyone.  Just recently, we discussed brain development and whether or not the age of majority and voting should be raised to the age of 21.  She thinks at least the voting age should be raised.  So she knows that the brain is still developing, even later than just 21.

Her daughter wanted to go to school to become a doctor.  She's now excited instead to be starting a family in what will be her junior year of high school.  She's a sophomore this year, and her intended husband is a supposedly-graduated homeschooler.  Because of his beliefs, which allow hugs but no higher education, she won't be pursuing medical school.  Her mom's crushed by this, and that is something she has no problem admitting.  The boy has no job, but wants to start a farm.

Em, I do wish this kid the best in life.  It's so rare for 16-year-old romances to last the distance (her parents' marriage would have ended if they didn't believe divorce would damn them to an eternity in hell, and her mom said that to me just a few days ago, before this engagement) that I'm doubly concerned about how they'll be trying to have a baby right away who'll be in the middle of all of this too.  I might not even be quite as concerned if they weren't both being raised to believe that divorce damns you to burn for an eternity.  She's fundamental Catholic, and he's fundamental Baptist.  His public Facebook page praises Gothard.  They have no escape route if it doesn't work, or he gets abusive.   They wanted to get married in April, which'll be their first anniversary of dating, but her dad, who's thrilled with this, talked them into agreeing to push it back to mid June.  She's definitely not pregnant already.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think all the fundies we discuss are doing something right.  They expect at least the boy to be able to support a family, at least at the start.  Would any of them be excited about a 17-year-old without a job marrying a 16-year-old?  Even if the girl wasn't Catholic.

My friend is coming over after church later.  She messaged just a half hour ago or so.  She's usually in bed.  It's hard for me, but I know it's got to be harder for her.

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

Just wow!  My parents were married at 15 and 16 in 1954, not out of a religious obligation or due to a pregnancy (I came along 8 years later), but because both came from horrible homes.  It was a given that if I married young it would be unacceptable to them, and knowing their circumstances I never saw it as hypocritical.  Although, when I wanted to stay out past curfew I would use the "At least I'm not married!" line (and it never worked -  )
Best of luck to you Jingerbread!

[QuittersTry]

Edit, just read your second post more closely. Are they getting married Catholic or Baptist? If daughter is getting married Baptist, it is not a sacramental marriage, and she is going to hell for pre-marital sex.  Marriage licenses and a church wedding outside the faith dont count. So your friend doesn't sound so religious to me, IMHO. Talk about being hypocritical!!!!! Sounds like your friend is letting a lot of outsiders influence her. I would tell her to get back to her Catholic roots!!!

I think you need to be there for your friend and not worry about if that looks like "support" to the daughter. 

----------

Advice for a Catholic couple...

When is the couple doing pre-cana? Are they doing a weekend retreat or individual sessions with the parish priest? The one thing about Catholics and sacraments is that rules are not easily bent. Pre-cana is required and it goes very deeply into financial planning, goal setting,  compatibility,  etc. Much less into family planning, pre-marital  sex than an outsider would think. 

From the church's pov, the only way to avoid divorce and annulments is to throughly vet all mariages before they take place. Literally, the priest has to ask if there is any mental or physical defect that would prevent consumation (dude, can you get it up?) to avoid grounds for annulment...lol!

[FoxyMoxie]

That isn't quite true re non-Catholic marriages - a blessing/non-legal sacramental wedding by a Catholic priest or deacon after a civil ceremony is considered sufficient, in many Catholic countries this is a necessity since everyone must have a civil marriage as their legal marriage (eg in France). 

[Closed Womb]

Jingerbread,

From your second post, where you reiterated/expanded upon your position, and didn't really take into account people's advice, I'd say you know what you want to do.  Do what makes you feel comfortable, period. 

If I've misunderstood and you really do want advice over agreement: I'm with the majority on this one.  I would (and have been) a supportive friend even when people are making (legal, non-abusive) decisions that I think are mistakes -- sometimes BIG mistakes.  And, you know what, sometimes those big mistakes actually work out.  My friends affair with her  BIL turning into lifelong love and marriage?  Didn't see that one coming, thought I'd have to be picking up pieces.  Move in with booty call after a few rounds of sex and no dates and it turns into loving relationship?  Color me shocked -- I thought he was using her as a live in babysitter.  Mind you, more often than not, I have a good read on the situation.  But in addition to everything everyone else has said, this could be her highly, highly unlikely path to happiness, be it through true love or escaping the home. 

FWIW: I know a woman who got married at 15 and loved him until the day he died, some 40 happy years later.  Granted, it was the 70's when they got married...and, yes, I mean the 1970s, not the 1870.    

[Anonymousguest]

I think you have to decide, and maybe already have, which is more important, your relationship with your friend or your convictions not to support ( even if just by appearance)  something you don't agree with. You have to make the decision that it's best for you. In a few years when this marriage has  taken place or not, and has succeeded or not, will you be more glad that you supported your friend and daughter, or that you didn't support teen marriage? This is the same thing those who disagree with gay marriage as an institution face right? Do they attend a wedding they may not agree with just because they love their friend/family , or do they refuse to participate because to do so would condone action and some how make them culpable?

Given what you have said regarding the nature of your relationship, it seems to me you should be able to tell your friend how you feel without being offensive. It also doesn't appear that either the young marriage or the mother's allowing it are religiously motivated.

[bean]

Wow, sounds like your friend is in a really tough spot. It sounds to me like the real issue is her marriage to an asshole and this situation is a symptom of it. What you're saying is she knows it's a bad idea but if she says anything to her daughter, then she has to admit she wishes she wouldn't still be married to him, right? Oof. 

Since you and your friend have always been blunt with each other, then by all means say "you know I think this is crazy right?" And see if you can work with her to figure out an angle for her to express misgivings to her daughter without talking trash about her husband ("yes, it worked out for your dad and me, but it doesn't for so many people, we just got lucky (cough cough)"). And encourage her to make sure that the kids are talking through tough questions (maybe she can find them a pre-marriage book of some kind, or better yet - make them do pre-marriage counseling). And hope that someone changes their mind before the wedding. The fact that her husband is so excited about it makes it doubly tough though - he must be some piece of work!

So, I'd say speak your mind when she brings it up, but don't harp on it (there's no way you're the only one who thinks it's a bad idea), go to the party, and cross your fingers that somehow the wedding is cancelled. 

One little mantra that has helped me when friends are going through tough times is "I don't have the power to fix this, all I can do is be a friend right now." 

[Anonymousguest]

My husband and I got married young, and we have let our kids know how hard it was in the beginning and don't at all agree with a marriage until both parties are "ready" in all the ways to give it the best chance. For the individual couple that could mean different things. But I don't think any of my kids have gotten the impression I'd have to let them get married because I did. I think that would indicate a fundamental flaw in parenting. We want our kids to have better, easier lives than it's and to learn from the wisdom we gathered through life. I wouldn't allow my underage children to drink just because I did, or any number of child/teen/young adult indiscretions.

[QuittersTry]

2 hours ago, FoxyMoxie said:

That isn't quite true re non-Catholic marriages - a blessing/non-legal sacramental wedding by a Catholic priest or deacon after a civil ceremony is considered sufficient, in many Catholic countries this is a necessity since everyone must have a civil marriage as their legal marriage (eg in France). 

Yes, I know...but Baptist guy doesn't know that...it's called Catholic guilt! Use it to your advantage. But any priest who would witness the wedding would still want them to do pre-cana, etc.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I would agree with the folks saying to go to the party to be there for your friend. However, as someone who grew up  fundie, I would say that as a true friend, you are in a position to be able to reach your friend in a way that others on the outside cannot. So, maybe you can talk to her about this wedding. Her telling her daughter that young marriage isn't always the best idea isn't hypocritical; it's helping the daughter avoid some of mom's mistakes and hopefully have a happier life than her parents did.

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, Jingerbread said:

Lawwifelgbt, I agree that getting married in early and mis 20's isn't a bad thing.  People usually know who they are as adults and how they respond to different stressful situations, but aren't so set in their ways that learning to bend later is very hard.  If her daughter was 21, 22, 23, in that range, I don't think there'd be any concerns from anyone.  Just recently, we discussed brain development and whether or not the age of majority and voting should be raised to the age of 21.  She thinks at least the voting age should be raised.  So she knows that the brain is still developing, even later than just 21.

Her daughter wanted to go to school to become a doctor.  She's now excited instead to be starting a family in what will be her junior year of high school.  She's a sophomore this year, and her intended husband is a supposedly-graduated homeschooler.  Because of his beliefs, which allow hugs but no higher education, she won't be pursuing medical school.  Her mom's crushed by this, and that is something she has no problem admitting.  The boy has no job, but wants to start a farm.

Em, I do wish this kid the best in life.  It's so rare for 16-year-old romances to last the distance (her parents' marriage would have ended if they didn't believe divorce would damn them to an eternity in hell, and her mom said that to me just a few days ago, before this engagement) that I'm doubly concerned about how they'll be trying to have a baby right away who'll be in the middle of all of this too.  I might not even be quite as concerned if they weren't both being raised to believe that divorce damns you to burn for an eternity.  She's fundamental Catholic, and he's fundamental Baptist.  His public Facebook page praises Gothard.  They have no escape route if it doesn't work, or he gets abusive.   They wanted to get married in April, which'll be their first anniversary of dating, but her dad, who's thrilled with this, talked them into agreeing to push it back to mid June.  She's definitely not pregnant already.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think all the fundies we discuss are doing something right.  They expect at least the boy to be able to support a family, at least at the start.  Would any of them be excited about a 17-year-old without a job marrying a 16-year-old?  Even if the girl wasn't Catholic.

My friend is coming over after church later.  She messaged just a half hour ago or so.  She's usually in bed.  It's hard for me, but I know it's got to be harder for her.

There isn't much your friend can do if the girl's father approves. But It is not unrealistic to hope that if they delay the wedding they will change their minds.  If she were my kid, that is what I would be doing.

When my daughter was 16, she was totally in love with this guy and couldn't imagine living without him (and no, they weren't having sex--she told me years later about losing her virginity and it was to her college boyfriend).  Anyway, something fairly trivial happened and they reconsidered the relationship.   They were no longer together (though they have remained friends) by highschool graduation.  Time is Important in a situation like this.  The guy should get a job and the girl should graduate highschool.

I hope your friend can bring herself to slow things down as much as possible.  It is not hypocrisy to tell your kid the truth.  The hypocrisy is in pretending everything is okay, when you have misgivings.

You are being a good friend to give her your support whatever she decides. A friend can do no more.

[MoonFace]

Sometimes you just need to smile and say, "Isn't that nice?" when your brain is screaming WHAT THE *^#^&@ ARE YOU THINKING???

 

Go and be supportive to your friend.   

It would be fine to for her to say to her daughter, Listen, I've made many mistakes in my life and I would hate to see you make the same ones.   While I don't regret having YOU, I do regret that I was so young when it happened. 

Considering they are fundie catholics will the daughter not use birth control?