Apparently Episcopalians Are Not the Right Kind Of Christian

[kpmom]

I was reading a Christian homeschooling forum that I like to lurk on, and came across a post about Christians, well *Evangelical* Christians specifically, not being represented at the 9/11 program at the National Cathedral in D.C.

 

The way these posters carry on about Christians being vilified and not being represented, I wondered if they realized the National Cathedral is an Episcopal Cathedral, and the Dean of the Cathedral, who will be at the program, is an Episcopal priest.

 

But of course if it's not *their* brand of Christianity it doesn't count.

 

I had to laugh at one poster who said they were obviously worried about someone mentioning Jesus.

Just who do they think Episcopalians worship???

 

Here's the link to the discussion;

 

chfweb.net/index.php?t=msg&th=76549&start=0&S=dc39695f36ad4d29ef2b88cb5a6ad02f

[keen23]

That's a sad, but typical viewpoint. Unless you are that very specific brand of Evangelical Christian that the poster is, then you aren't the "right" kind of Christian. It doesn't matter if your theology varies only a little from them, or a lot, you just aren't "right" and are most likely going to hell.

And doncha know, Episcopals are basically Catholics...ebil, ebil Catholics disguised as Protestants.

[Joykins]

There were no Mormons either, apparently.

[changemanagement]

I read that yesterday. The religious artifacts in the National Cathedral would probably upset the evangelicals anyway. BTW, I'm an Episcopalian and my daughter had her confirmation ceremony in the National Cathedral. It's a beautiful structure.

[SamuraiKatz]

Ummm....the Southern Baptists wouldn't let the Episcopalians (or any other denomination) barge in on one of their church sponsored events...so i'm not just not seeing the "persecution" here. :roll:

[Stickers]

Is it only me, or does it seem like Christians are the ones who are vilified for 9/11?

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Um

:shock:

It's probably not only you, I'm sure there are other crazy people out there. But yeah I'd like her to say that to anyone with brown skin living in America. They don't get singled out because they look Christian.

[MamaJunebug]

Perhaps I can shed some light on a progressively-more-muddled discussion (said humbly, believe it or not ;) )

After 9/11/2001, an interfaith prayer service was organized in Yankee Stadium. As I understand it, every major religious group was invited and the only ones not to attend were the Southern Baptist Convention. SBC interprets the Bible, their Scripture, as instructing followers of Jesus not to pray with folks who are not praying to God as the Bible describes God.

The reason for this is that it sends a confusing double message to onlookers: Baptists say that Jesus, son of God, is the only way to salvation, yet they pray alongside folks who don't believe in Jesus as the only way to salvation.

Historically, the Lutheran church-Missouri Synod had/has the same practice. Thus it was quite controversial when an LCMS pastor - who is also the equivalnet of a bishop in the LCMS hierarchy - not only participated in the interfaith prayer service, but came up with a spiffy phrase to describe the event. It was something along the lines of, "God has turned a field of dreams into a house of prayer," etc.

As a member of a congregation allied with the LCMS at the time, I was well aware of the division and controversy this caused. Folks in LCMS seem to be pretty evenly split as to whether the LCMS pastor's participation and prayer was a good or bad thing.

Meanwhile, unlike the SBC and the (official position of) LCMS, the Episcopal church in USA, along with Methodists, some non-Phillipsian Presbyterians and other liberal denominations apparently long ago decided that "we all worship the same God" even if other folks' defintion of God does not include Jesus or His saving works.

So for people comfortable in those denominations, an interfaith service -- counting Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, et.al. -- is no problem, in fact is a desirable thing.

For people comfortable in the official LCMS, SBC and the brand of evangelicals described in the initial post, here, such a service is to be avoided.

[ETA, I suspect there may be branches of Judaism and Islam, among others, that reject the idea of praying alongside Gentiles or infidels, believing Christians to be misguided in their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, Jews to be misguided in their rejection of Allah, and Muslims to be misguided in their rejection of Jesus and/or their devotion to Allah. it would be interesting to know how such groups - if they exist - respond to an invitation to an interfaith prayer event.]

So anyhow, WRT the variety of traditions within Christian denominations, that's what's at the base of things. I hope this has cleared things up, if not, let me know and i'll try not to muddy things further.

[FaustianSlip]

Right, but then they've really got no room to bitch when an Episcopal church holding an Episcopal service (even if it is an ecumenical one) doesn't include them when, evidently, they wouldn't be willing to attend, anyway. What are the Episcopalians supposed to do, vacate the building so the SBC can have a two-hour, patriotic, fundie extravaganza? No one's stopping the SBC or whomever from having their own services, and I doubt they'd want a bunch of Episcopalians turning up and being all egalitarian and ecumenical and G-d knows what else. Once again, the fundies start gnashing their teeth and crying persecution when they don't actually seem at all aware of what the word really means.

And no, most fundies don't consider Episcopalians Christians at all- certainly not "real" Christians. My mother gets really frosted when people say something like, "Are you a Christian?" because it's almost invariably code for, "Are you a born-again, Republican-voting fundie?" which she is, uh, not. It's like the grating my teeth start doing when I read some Orthodox blog carrying on about how they're "Torah Jews." Whatever. :roll:

[MamaJunebug]

Ah. Faustian, I see I responded to a subject that wasn't really on the table. Typical Junebuggian faux pas!

I am fairly familiar w the reaction of some when they find out I'm Lutheran. Just too close to the Roman Catholics for comfort, and I like it that way! :). Was telling my The Spousal Unit that of the other non-RC Christian denominations, Episopalianism is closest to doctrine as we understand it.

[kpmom]

Forgive the slightly off-topic;

MJB, are Episcopalians and Lutherans "in communion" with each other? I thought I remember hearing or reading that.

[FaustianSlip]

No, MJB, that was interesting. And if anything, it just makes the SBC look more ridiculous for complaining that they weren't included in this thing at the National Cathedral, since they were invited and declined to attend the ecumenical service immediately after 9/11. Ironically, trad Catholics won't worship with other denominations for similar reasons- there are periodic discussions about it on Fisheaters. I'm sure the SBC would be horrified by the similarity. Ahem.

The problem is that the Lutherans, Episcopalians et al are just too sane and humane for the likes of the SBC.

[contrary]

fortunately, we episcopalians can only go to hell if we use the wrong fork.

[FaustianSlip]

Or forget to bring a corkscrew to coffee hour!

[Hane]

fortunately, we episcopalians can only go to hell if we use the wrong fork.

*rim shot*

In the late '90s, my daughter was a paid soloist at an affluent Episcopalian church in the ritzy part of Connecticut. I used to say that the way to be excommunicated from that parish would be (if you were male) showing up not wearing a navy blazer with brass buttons or (if you were female) showing up wearing something other than Laura Ashley.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Outside of DC, I run into a lot of people who think National Cathedral is basically a national, interdenominational house of prayer or maybe a national monument. They have no idea it's a functioning Episcopal church. Looking at it that way, I can kind of see how some would expect the 9/11 service to include clergy from different denominations. However, I also suspect that some of these posters don't count Episcopals as christians.

[jenny_islander]

@Hane: Wow! I grew up with Episcopalians who only dressed up for weddings, if that. But then we're a fishing town--the richest folks in town wear crusty Carhartts and Xtratuf boots to work.

[contrary]

Or forget to bring a corkscrew to coffee hour!

HAHAHA. oh, i am so absconding with that.

like my momma always said, wherever there's four episcopalians, you can always find a fifth!

[jenny_islander]

That's another thing that I never heard. But there had better be coffee, fresh and hot, and at least three different kinds of tea, and some kind of nibble--preferably homemade.

[contrary]

oh, we had booze at every coffee hour and potluck.

[Austin]

Growing up, adults I knew would refer to them as the whiskey-palians. lol

[prairiemuffin]

Just for my own confirmation, is the Episcopalian Church simply the American Version of the Church of England? Are there other differences as well?

TIA!

[contrary]

yes. it's the american arm of the church of england/anglican church.

[Daenerys]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Um

:shock:

It's probably not only you, I'm sure there are other crazy people out there. But yeah I'd like her to say that to anyone with brown skin living in America. They don't get singled out because they look Christian.

If anything, I would say that extremist Christians have used 9/11 as a springboard to push their views onto the masses. You only need to look at how much more openly 'Christian' the Right in America is becoming, with attempts to limit abortion access and the teaching of evolution / sex education in schools.

[Hane]

@Hane: Wow! I grew up with Episcopalians who only dressed up for weddings, if that. But then we're a fishing town--the richest folks in town wear crusty Carhartts and Xtratuf boots to work.

The ones in my town (in the blue-collar-inner-city part of Connecticut) sound a lot like yours. One has a predominantly working-class Latino congregation, and, at local festivals, you have to get in line EARLY to get one of their heavenly pernil*-rice/beans-greens plates.

The Gold Coast one, not so much.

*slow-roasted marinated pork shoulder (*drool*)

[Katiebug]

Forgive the slightly off-topic;

MJB, are Episcopalians and Lutherans "in communion" with each other? I thought I remember hearing or reading that.

Not MJB, but a Lutheran of the ELCA variety. The ELCA is in full communion with the Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church USA, the Reformed Church in America, the United Church of Christ, and the United Methodist Church. Oh, and also the other churches in the Lutheran World Federation. Basically being in full communion means that there's mutual recognition between the ELCA and each of those bodies - so if our congregation's pastor is on vacation we could ask a local Methodist minister to officiate on a Sunday rather than getting a fill pastor from synod.

The Lutheran World Federation also has some sort of document of understanding with the Roman Catholic Church, and apparently next month there will be another document signed by both sides.

I remember hearing about Pastor Benke and the fallout of the Yankee Stadium prayer service. Lutherans are in the minority in this part of the country (predominantly Roman Catholic) and there are 3 ELCA churches for every LCMS church in our area. I was in college at the time of 9/11 and attended an LCMS church because it was within walking distance of campus and the closest ELCA congregation was several miles away (I didn't have a car). The pastor of the LCMS congregation had always quietly allowed ELCA students who attended regularly to take communion at his church, which was nice of him - I realized after the 9/11 prayer service issue that he could have gotten in trouble for what he and his church were doing for students.