Letters to Dave

[Austin]

Sorry for more posting, but there are always at least two sides to any story. Here is Naomi's side. She claims that there is no affair and that Dave was/is just trying to leave his marriage:

http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes ... ry_to_the/

Sometimes The Bad Guys Win by Naomi Dunford

In 1985, a New York woman named Roseanne decided to leave her marriage to start a new life.

Her husband didn’t like that idea too much. Divorce was wrong.

He told her he wouldn’t let her leave. He told her he wouldn’t let her divorce him. He told her she could run, but he would always find her, and they would stay married, like they should be.

She left anyway. She went to stay with her mom in Florida. She could only bring two of the kids, so the others stayed with her husband.

Her husband came to find her and drag her back to the family.

She left again.

Her husband came to find her and drag her back to her family.

She left again.

All this driving back and forth from Florida to New York was starting to impact her husband’s work schedule, and she wasn’t seeing sense anyway.

He hired someone to go down to Florida and kill her.

They tried. Botched the job.

He hired someone ELSE to go down to Florida and kill her.

They tried. Botched the job.

He hired ANOTHER person to go down to Florida and kill her.

The police knew about it before she did. They warned her that she was being targeted. She tried to lay low.

According to the Sun-Sentinel, a regional Florida newspaper:

“On July 29, 1986, while she sipped coffee with her mother, Roseanne Navarro was gunned down by a killer who walked into her mobile home west of Lake Worth. She was 37.â€

Roseanne’s 11-year-old daughter, Christine, wrapped her arms around her mother and held her while she died.

Anthony Navarro Sr. was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. He is serving a life sentence in Greenhaven Correctional Facility in the state of New York. Flash forward to November 2010.

My best friend, Dave Navarro, decides to leave his marriage.

His brother, Anthony Navarro Jr., gets wind of it and leaves a solemn voicemail on Dave’s answering machine. “I’ve heard some very disturbing newsâ€, he says.

Dave is distraught. He doesn’t want to talk to his brother. He needs space. He needs time to think. He comes from a Christian home. He lives in the Bible belt. Divorce scares him.

Anthony is angry. He says that as the elder of the family, he cannot permit Dave to get divorced. He calls it generational sin. He says Dave’s soul is in jeopardy. He must save it.

Anthony sends Dave a couple of texts:

“If you choose not to be part of the conversation, the battle for your soul, and the future of your family begins tonight.â€

“At midnight www.letterstodavenavarro.com will launch with all the SEO force I can muster. As I said last night, the ball is in your court. Love you.â€

Dave tries to ignore it. He calls a lawyer who specializes in collaborative divorce. He thinks they can keep it nice. He thinks maybe Anthony will go away.

Dave goes to pick up his oldest son for a Tae Kwon Do lesson and Anthony is hiding behind the corner. Blocks Dave’s car in. Tells him he’s not allowed to get divorced. It’s wrong, and he won’t allow it. He is the elder, and he will be respected. Finally, Anthony’s wife tells him to let Dave leave, and he does.

Two weeks later, Dave drops off the two younger boys after a dinner visit. Waiting for him around the corner are Anthony and four police officers. They tell Dave his brother has filed to have him involuntarily committed. He is handcuffed and put into a police car and taken to a mental institution, where they explain that Anthony has said he’s on drugs and a danger to himself and others.

After a few hours of paperwork and a medical exam, Dave is released. A police officer hands Dave the cap to his back tire, says Anthony gave it to an employee at the mall where Dave had been picked up. Says Anthony was telling people he was going to let the air out of Dave’s tires.

When Dave got out of the institution, his tires would be deflated, it would be dark, and he would be completely alone.

The officer gives him a ride back with apologies and suggests a restraining order against Anthony.

Anthony gets in touch with Dave to tell him he’s only just begun. If he comes home now, all the madness will stop. Dave can still be forgiven, he says.

Dave is scared. Anthony Jr. has always looked up to his father. He has always maintained that his father was either completely innocent, or completely justified.

Dave figures he should leave town for a while and let the dust settle.

Anthony starts getting in touch with Dave’s business contacts, directing them to the website, beseeching them to tell him to be a man and go back home. Dave tries to lay low.

One of our colleagues, Nathan Hangen, tweets about Anthony’s website and sends him his first real burst of traffic.

Anthony is finally getting traffic and steps up his game. He publishes post after post, accusing Dave – and letting others accuse in the comments – of leaving the family penniless. Of racketeering. Of fraud. Of tax evasion. Of drug addiction. Of soliciting prostitutes.

[Austin]

More from Naomi:

Part 2

Dave and I run a promotion together. Anthony concludes Dave and I are having an affair. He puts this on his website and starts getting in touch with MY business contacts. He emails my husband, Jamie, with his sympathy. He tells Jamie they must all stand together and support one another during this painful time.

Nathan and a few other people Dave and I saw at BlogWorld chime in and tell Anthony that based on what they saw at the conference, they can all but guarantee we are having an affair. Then, on February 17th, 2011, Anthony sends this email. The words are Anthony’s. The emphasis is mine.

“Psalms 69:5

O God, you know my folly;

the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you.

Jeremiah 3:25

Let us lie down in our shame, and let our dishonor cover us. For we have sinned against the Lord our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day, and we have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God.â€

Brother, no matter how fast you run, you cannot run from your sin, nor its penalty. Come back to the light, come back into the circle of blessing. You need not continue to live like a fugitive… Like a coward.

Adultery is the greatest sin addressed in the bible. Realize, Dave, that you are committing adultery… Against your wife, Alison; against your children, and against God. You are guilty of the same sin as our mother and it cost her her life in the end… It cost her her soul. Her selfishness was her downfall. Do not fall into the same trap… The same spiral… The same death… The same eternity.

Why do you not even talk? Are you so ashamed? You can turn back to the right path, and you can be forgiven.

It’s not too late. Yet.

-Anthonyâ€

Dave’s lawyer gets involved. Anthony doesn’t post for a while. Anthony’s wife assures Dave, and Dave’s lawyer, that Anthony is done now.

Dave thinks it’s safe to come back to town.

Anthony starts again. A commentator on his website says they’re “waiting in ambush†for us. Anthony wants to meet them in person to find out more about their plans.

Another commentator on his website suggests Anthony get in touch with saltydroid.info, a website devoted to taking down internet scammers.

“Salty†takes the case.

He posts about Dave. He posts about me.

And then the death threats started coming.

I had stolen another woman’s husband. That was adultery. I have to die.

The products I sell are scams. That is lying. I have to die.

I hang out with other scammers. That is collusion. I have to die, and so do they. To answer your questions

We’ve received over 100,000 visitors over the last 48 hours and an outpouring of support that defies my imagination. Thank you. For everything. You know who you are.

I thank those of you with 5 followers and 500,000 followers. I thank those of you who forwarded my post to your mothers and sisters and daughters. I thank movie director Kevin Smith for tweeting about this and giving Jamie a very bright spot in an otherwise very dark day.

I thank Lyndsy in rural Arkansas who offered his spare room and the use of his many rifles.

I thank my friends and colleagues who told me they knew about this all along but didn’t want to bother me with internet smut.

I thank my friends and colleagues who told me they knew about this all along but couldn’t defend Dave and me because they didn’t want to get the perpetrators angry at them.

Thank you to all of you. I have never felt so blessed.

A few answers:

Yes, I have contacted the police.

No, I don’t have a handgun because they’re not legal in Canada.

No, I cannot get a restraining order because there is nobody to restrain and nothing to restrain them from.

No, I can’t sue anybody because nothing that has been done publicly is in violation of any enforceable law.

Yes, I know death threats don’t qualify under the First Amendment. (The death threats did not come from the owners of the websites, but from their fans.)

Yes, I have heard that you shouldn’t name names or feed the trolls.

Yes, I have heard that if I don’t name names, nobody will believe me.

Yes, I have heard that this is nobody’s business but mine.

Yes, I have heard that this is everybody’s business.

Yes, I have heard that I should have talked about this months ago.

Yes, I have heard that I should have laid low and waited for it to pass. My point, and I do have one.

Many of Dave’s colleagues and customers saw Anthony’s website, saw that Dave never responded, and took that to mean he was guilty.

I don’t know if it ever occurred to them that Dave’s sons are old enough to read, and he didn’t want to add anything more to the pile of hatred and vitriol already out there for anyone with a computer to see. I don’t know if it ever occurred to them that the only advice we give to people in situations like this is, “Don’t feed the trolls.â€

I guess the more honest advice is, “Don’t feed the trolls unless I’m really interested in the gossip.â€

Dave has been vilified. He has been crucified in the court of public opinion. Every move he makes gets him attacked more and more. His customers have abandoned him because they think he is as evil as his brother makes him out to be.

He will probably never do any real business in this industry again.

There is no way for him to win. It’s not safe to go back to Raleigh. He may never see his boys again. They will likely be brainwashed to believe that it was his fault, just like his father and brother brainwashed HIM to believe that his mother simply didn’t love him enough to stay.

The last time Dave spoke to his mother, he was rude to her. Both Anthony Sr. and Anthony Jr. had told him to be as mean as he could. They told him she didn’t love him, and that’s why she left. Dave was nine years old.

Sometimes you can win, and sometimes you can’t. Sometimes life has clear cut answers, and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes you don’t feed the trolls, but they feed themselves anyway.

I don’t know if Roseanne Navarro contacted the police. I know they contacted her, though.

I don’t know if she had a restraining order.

I don’t know if she tried to sue.

I don’t know if she bought a handgun.

I’d love to ask her, but she’s dead.

What I DO know is that Roseanne Navarro laid low and waited for it to pass.

She didn’t feed the trolls. Share

[slickcat79]

Ew. Just when I thought the NCFIC'ers were the biggest weirdos around here :shock: This whole situation is jacked up, and I'm sorry those boys have to go through it. They'll probably grow up to be as scary as creepy Anthony and his father.

[PBrooke]

...Not to flounce, but I posted Naomi's side of the story in one of the very first posts on this thread. I don't know if I'm on ignore by half the forum or what, but I feel like this keeps happening in threads.

Eh, I'm probably just PMSing, and cross from hurricane cleanup. Consider this a vent.

[Austin]

Sorry, PBrooke. I didn't see it and I rarely click on links for which no excerpt is provided anyway (that's just me, personally - not saying it's necessary to provide an excerpt).

Didn't mean to usurp you at all and I do not have you on ignore - lol.

[formergothardite]

...Not to flounce, but I posted Naomi's side of the story in one of the very first posts on this thread. I don't know if I'm on ignore by half the forum or what, but I feel like this keeps happening in threads.

Eh, I'm probably just PMSing, and cross from hurricane cleanup. Consider this a vent.

If it makes you feel any better, I kept trying to comment on it, but for some reason my phone wouldn't let me so I had to wait to use the computer.

These people sound scary and I have no idea what I would do if I was that lady in a situation where someone I worked with had crazy relatives who did things like this.

[The Archivist]

Okay, so I want to 'fess up some on why I posted this here - because I am really torn about this situation, and which side to believe, and what's right and what's wrong.

I only posted the tip of the iceberg here (the letterstodavenavarro.com site and the info about the killing of Rosemary Navarro) because I figured that would be the part most relevant to FJer (due to fundiness), and that you all would dig out the rest like the capable internet detectives you are, and we could discuss it here. Looks like that's what happened, so yay!

Sorry for not telling the whole story upfront, but I didn't want to give it my own personalized spin right at the start of the thread. Now that y'all have come to your own conclusions about stuff, I'll give you my take:

1) Dave's family is fucking creepy and possibly wacko-fundie.

2) Dave's dad had his mom killed (verifiable fact), and that history could be reason enough for him to run and hide if he wants to divorce his wife.

3) Dave and Naomi likely had some seriously shady or unethical business dealings (see Salty Droid's chatlog exposé: http://saltydroid.info/spider-shit-storm/ - not breaking the link because SD won't give a shit if we talk about him.)

4) Could that chatlog have been faked? I guess so. Likely? Probably not fake.

5) Salty Droid's history as internet detective (and LAWYER) who has a bone to pick with internet marketers is pretty solid, though I never heard of him till day before yesterday.

6) Salty Droid's site is rather juvenile, and his fans rather rabid.

7) Naomi may indeed have received death threats, esp. given the Navarro family history and/or the rabid nature of said fans.

8) OR Naomi may have inferred threats from real fear of Navarro's family.

9) OR Naomi may have invented the death threats out of whole cloth & posted a feminist-call-to-arms on her blog to deflect attention from Salty Droid's exposé.

10) Either way, her original post on the topic: ittybiz.com/death-threats-online/ - takes shit out of context, provides no proof of anything, and is pretty damn biased.

11) Salty Droid (and commenters) are equally biased - they are CONVINCED that NO ONE can EVER make money on the internet, and that all people who sell services about online marketing are SCAM ARTISTS. Many of the commenters reek of sour grapes.

[formergothardite]

I just skimmed the chat log, but did he prove it was real? It looked like anybody could have written that (including a crazy psycho brother), but maybe I am missing something. And from reading the letters to Dave and reading the background of this family, I totally believe the death threats.

[The Archivist]

He didn't prove the chatlog was real - but if you read some on the background of the SaltyDroid blog (check the About page and click all the links you find) you'll see he's actually a reasonably credible source.

I...I don't know what to think about the death threats. Do I think women are (sometimes, often) relentlessly harassed and bullied on the internet just for being women? Yes.

Is it likely this situation would result in anonymous online death threats to Naomi? Yes.

Is Naomi also a master of spin who could easily write something like that to distract from the issue of her business dealings and (alleged) tax evasion? Yes.

To be honest, I don't know WHAT to believe. I am totally confused and upset by all of this.

ETA: I guess I think it's possible, even plausible, that BOTH sides of the story are true: Dave's family is psycho, Naomi received death threats, AND that Naomi and Dave had some shady business crap going on that deserved to be called out.

To add to the confusion, what she said about her website being hacked and redirected to saltydroid.info appears to be false. With the alleged hacking, her archives are conveniently no longer available (except through Wayback Machine - which is also confusing, because you can EASILY, with a simple robots.txt file, block all your archives from appearing there. So who the hell knows?)

[Austin]

Well, I never heard of any of these people before today, but I think the bottom line is that you probably can't ever know the answers to all of your questions unless the people involved speak up and tell the whole truth. But even so, it will be their truth. It sounds like a complicated, mangled ball of wax to me.

I read all of Anthony Jr.'s letters and he creeps me out big-time. There's only so many ways you can say the same stuff, and his tone seemed ominous to me at times. To read that his father felt justified in killing his wife/ex-wife and the mother of his children because she didn't want to stay married to his father, a murder which his little daughter witnessed according to reports, is bone-chilling to me.

I've read that Anthony, Jr. supports his father's position vis-a-vis his now-murdered mother. So if that's true, then this is a family for whom leaving one's marriage is a capital crime. And at one point in Anthony, Jr.'s writings to his brother, he tells him that adultery is the worst sin in the bible. (Really? - news to me), so he's like an obsessed dog with a bone and I think he's going to hound Dave to the ends of the earth if he can get away with it.

Impressions (FWIW - you'll still need $2.95 for a grande latte at Starbux - lol):

1. Dave wanted out of his marriage. He left his wife and kids and moved somewhere else.

2. I believe that Anthony, Jr. probably was menacing when Dave came by to see his children/drop them off.

3. I can't imagine what Anthony Jr could have told the cops to have them haul Dave off to the mental hospital. . . I was not under the impression that was a particularly easy to thing to do, even when a family member is obviously BSC, so I don't know about that. Not saying it didn't happen, but would like more details.

4. I don't get the impression that Dave is having an affair with Naomi. Just a gut feeling.

5. Anthony, Jr. will harass Dave until time eternal because that was his example (and that would be the best-case scenario), and he feels he is completely justified. Hopefully, he would not want to face the consequences of going down the road his father went down. Anthony will continue to try to ruin Dave financially (sounds like he has, as Naomi mentions that he'll probably never be able to work in that sector again), which will only hurts Dave's ability to support his kids.

6. I have no opinion on the issue of Naomi's or Dave's business being on the level. You say you purchased something from them. Did you get what you paid for?

In any case, lots of business people are shady (think Wall Street, for instance) but that doesn't make them deserve the kind of treatment Dave is getting from his brother. Unless there is actually an affair between Dave & Naomi, I'm not sure it's all that relevant. Apparently, Dave was making his living this way before he left Alison, and it doesn't sound like Alison was complaining then (that I could find, anyway). It sounds like Anthony's beef with Dave is that he can't control him, and can't make him come back to his wife. It does not sound like this started out over disapproval of Dave's business practices.

There's probably pieces and parts of truth in everybody's stories. It's just hard to know which is which.

eta: clarity

[The Archivist]

Absolutely NO ONE in this situation deserves death threats. No matter what else went on - affairs, bad business, whatever. Death threats are never okay.

Aside from gossip value, I truly could not care less if Naomi and Dave are having an affair, or if Dave left his wife in the lurch, or whatever. Aside from just speculating for fun, there is no reasn for me to talk about those things at all. Except I'm a FJer, so I care about the weird fundiness and the weird patriarchal family-marriage-control dynamic just on general principles - which is why I initially only introduced that bit to the thread.

[Austin]

Well, yeah, I can see why you'd care about that part the most.

OTOH, my only interest is the speculation for the sake of itself, and the fundie overtones to the whole thing, as you mention.

I hope that you didn't get ripped off. I read some of Dave's blogs and idk, but the posts I read all seemed to contain sound, if somewhat generic, business/motivational advice. I'm sure you have to pay for the advice that would be specific to you. I did not follow the Naomi-business rabbit hole.

[Kitchen Princess]

Did Alison write any letters on the letters to Dave site? (I don't have time to read, sorry.)

I think Anthony Jr is a scary dude and I think Alison is probably afraid of him, too.

[Angri-la]

Wait, isn't Dave Navarro the guy who was in Jane's Addiction and, married to Carmen Electra? Wrong Dave... I could almost understand a strung out rocker behaving like this, but a "Godly" man?

Eta: I couldn't resist. I know I added nothing, but I hope I made someone giggle, besides me.

[Austin]

Did Alison write any letters on the letters to Dave site? (I don't have time to read, sorry.)

I think Anthony Jr is a scary dude and I think Alison is probably afraid of him, too.

Yes, there is one letter on the site from Alison to Dave:

http://letterstodavenavarro.com/letter-from-alison

[clarinetpower]

Dang. I was hoping for him.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I am sooooooooo defrauded. Someone call Christine O'Donnell because I have lust in my heart!!

Sorry for the OT but I love me some Dave Navarro

[Angri-la]

See! I am not the only one...mmm thanks for defrauding me. Bath and bedtime were a real blessing to me tonight, I tell you what! Praise the lord for crabby children and shirtless eye candy!