Speaking of being PC...

[Eighth-of-eleven]

Sometimes tw, ss, and yes, even a little pc can be helpful to someone desperately attempting to re engage into "normal society" perhaps even move on to graduate school to advance her nursing career after many years of serving her community, lovingly, joyfully, gratefully...untill a horrible assault.

I have always considered myself tough,living in the Bush in alaska, working in the ccu, er, in acute care hospitals and for the last ten years until the last two years ago as a nurse in a maximum security psychiatric hospital.

I say this, and perhaps repeat this, to say that though I do consider myself responsible for my own recovery, and I do NOT expect those of you who resent your expectations that I may feel the need to be somehow "coddled" by an appreciation of tw,and ss, I inadvertently ran into a situation that did trigger my complex ptsd and it did put this tough, personally responsible nurse into a dissociative fugue state requiring 3 days of hospitalization, lumbar puncture, catherter,mri, skull series, tgisxlast August ( dissociative fugue state number 5 causing actual brain damage now) because i was so dissociated the hospital did not know what to do with a coma like state until the neurologist and my neuropsychologist were able to intervene and keep me from being locked down in a psych unit.

Sometimes people are fragile and need tw, ss, maybe not forever, I certainly hope not, I do everything in my power to help myself, I now have two medic alert bracelets, one with my name and personal info, because of global amnesia it took a week for me to remember my name and where I lived, and another with my diagnoses and access codes for medical personnel, I keep going to class, I keep writing, I keep using what ever skills I have, my brain is now physically damaged (broca's area, why I don't write as well as I used to) but I am not lazy, coddled, weak or asking for anyone's speshul snowflake babying, just a little tw, ss, sometimes. And when i am wandering, I have identification and communication for medicalc staff so that I dont wind up in jail as a Jane doe, which happened two years ago, before i was able to get the treatment needed. A tw, or ss may help me avoid another dissociative fugue state again, which may be helpful to this tough non coddling asking nurse, Thank you very much.

[violynn]

Sometimes tw, ss, and yes, even a little pc can be helpful to someone desperately attempting to re engage into "normal society" perhaps even move on to graduate school to advance her nursing career after many years of serving her community, lovingly, joyfully, gratefully...untill a horrible assault.

I have always considered myself tough,living in the Bush in alaska, working in the ccu, er, in acute care hospitals and for the last ten years until the last two years ago as a nurse in a maximum security psychiatric hospital.

I say this, and perhaps repeat this, to say that though I do consider myself responsible for my own recovery, and I do NOT expect those of you who resent your expectations that I may feel the need to be somehow "coddled" by an appreciation of tw,and ss, I inadvertently ran into a situation that did trigger my complex ptsd and it did put this tough, personally responsible nurse into a dissociative fugue state requiring 3 days of hospitalization, lumbar puncture, catherter,mri, skull series, tgisxlast August ( dissociative fugue state number 5 causing actual brain damage now) because i was so dissociated the hospital did not know what to do with a coma like state until the neurologist and my neuropsychologist were able to intervene and keep me from being locked down in a psych unit.

Sometimes people are fragile and need tw, ss, maybe not forever, I certainly hope not, I do everything in my power to help myself, I now have two medic alert bracelets, one with my name and personal info, because of global amnesia it took a week for me to remember my name and where I lived, and another with my diagnoses and access codes for medical personnel, I keep going to class, I keep writing, I keep using what ever skills I have, my brain is now physically damaged (broca's area, why I don't write as well as I used to) but I am not lazy, coddled, weak or asking for anyone's speshul snowflake babying, just a little tw, ss, sometimes. And when i am wandering, I have identification and communication for medicalc staff so that I dont wind up in jail as a Jane doe, which happened two years ago, before i was able to get the treatment needed. A tw, or ss may help me avoid another dissociative fugue state again, which may be helpful to this tough non coddling asking nurse, Thank you very much.

FundieFarmer and 8th of 11 told their stories so I don't need to (sorry if someone else has and I don't remember) bore anyone with mine as well. TW's AID in recovery from PTSD, not damage it. We're not asking/expecting every one every where to tiptoe around whispering in corners behind closed doors. Simply that it'd be helpful if a sign was perhaps posted warning about content that could be triggering. My recovery was set back months because of lack of a simple content statement, at a time when going backward really impaired my ability to heal and obliterated any sense of security I was struggling to regain. No one has asked to be a special snowflake, and btw, some of you are really using that phrase past all usefulness. Ratings for movies, tv programs and cd's come with a warning about appropriateness of the material for young people, and that is fine, but tacking on an additional warning in other forms of media is too much to ask? That seems contradictory.

People here with a much better ability to write their thoughts out coherently than mine are doing a wonderful job discussing this subject. I'll bow out now, tl;dr Thank you, FF and eighth of eleven for communicating so honestly and clearly what my mumbling brain wants to say.

ETA for riffles

[Palimpsest]

When people engage in deliberately oppositional, disruptive, and rude behavior on a forum or in real life they are usually desperately seeking attention. Any attention, even negative attention, will do.

As with toddlers throwing tantrums, it is important not to reinforce those undesirable and unwanted behaviors by engaging with people desperate for attention in any way.

We seem to have three or four people here now who are reinforcing each others unfortunate behaviors, but the rest of us should not encourage them. It's probably best to ignore them in the hopes that we are just observing an extinction burst.

There have been many excellent contributions to this thread. Let's focus on the thoughtful, polite and informational posts not the name-calling ones. :)

[latraviata]

When people engage in deliberately oppositional, disruptive, and rude behavior on a forum or in real life they are usually desperately seeking attention. Any attention, even negative attention, will do.

As with toddlers throwing tantrums, it is important not to reinforce those undesirable and unwanted behaviors by engaging with people desperate for attention in any way.

We seem to have three or four people here now who are reinforcing each others unfortunate behaviors, but the rest of us should not encourage them. It's probably best to ignore them in the hopes that we are just observing an extinction burst.

There have been many excellent contributions to this thread. Let's focus on the thoughtful, polite and informational posts not the name-calling ones. :)

And that includes racist, bigot, nazi and islamophobe??

[FundieFarmer]

The TV/media content warning thing is really resonating with me. I think it's a great example. Here's my take on their value, from a PTSD perspective. Please share if it looks different for a condition you may have.

TWs and TV warnings were actually the subject of a significant amount of ire a few seasons ago with Reign. The main protagonist was assaulted, and the show did not release a trigger warning beforehand. The ads merely showed a siege on the castle, so many viewers thought the mature warning was meant for the siege, and nothing else. Plus, there wasn't anything leading up to the assault. It was sudden, and shocking, and the Reign community erupted. It was right after my assault, and I was horrified, and like ViolynnKelly, set back for a good bit.

Had there been TWs about the nature of the content, I would never have turned it on at that point in my recovery. Sometimes it's like that with TWs for me: a way to avoid. Avoidance. Sometimes I see them at the top of the post, and think, "I'll wade in. If I can't, I'm out." Management. And sometimes, it's just information for me to brace myself if I do want to discuss a topic, or read a post, or watch a show with a subplot.

So I think it goes like this for me. I see the warning, I move forward knowing what's coming or I avoid. You don't see the warning, sometimes you're shocked anyway. That's when you have to have the tools and resources to deal with it anyway. Maybe not in the ideal way you'd like, but it's important to equip yourself for those resources anyway, for when you miss or don't have a content warning.

ETA: I was also thinking I'm seeing equipping yourself with those resources as a way to "deal" and "move forward" to a new normal with PTSD, while I see Terrie is talking about them as a way to manage a situation that does not change even with those tools. Is that right, Terrie? I can see how it would be irritating to say they're to "move forward" when they're being used from a situation that is structured differently, like OCD.

[violynn]

The TV/media content warning thing is really resonating with me. I think it's a great example. Here's my take on their value, from a PTSD perspective. Please share if it looks different for a condition you may have.

TWs and TV warnings were actually the subject of a significant amount of ire a few seasons ago with Reign. The main protagonist was assaulted, and the show did not release a trigger warning beforehand. The ads merely showed a siege on the castle, so many viewers thought the mature warning was meant for the siege, and nothing else. Plus, there wasn't anything leading up to the assault. It was sudden, and shocking, and the Reign community erupted. It was right after my assault, and I was horrified, and like ViolynnKelly, set back for a good bit.

Had there been TWs about the nature of the content, I would never have turned it on at that point in my recovery. Sometimes it's like that with TWs for me: a way to avoid. Avoidance. Sometimes I see them at the top of the post, and think, "I'll wade in. If I can't, I'm out." Management. And sometimes, it's just information for me to brace myself if I do want to discuss a topic, or read a post, or watch a show with a subplot.

So I think it goes like this for me. I see the warning, I move forward knowing what's coming or I avoid. You don't see the warning, sometimes you're shocked anyway. That's when you have to have the tools and resources to deal with it anyway. Maybe not in the ideal way you'd like, but it's important to equip yourself for those resources anyway, for when you miss or don't have a content warning.

ETA: I was also thinking I'm seeing equipping yourself with those resources as a way to "deal" and "move forward" to a new normal with PTSD, while I see Terrie is talking about them as a way to manage a situation that does not change even with those tools. Is that right, Terrie? I can see how it would be irritating to say they're to "move forward" when they're being used from a situation that is structured differently, like OCD.

:clap:

[Rubyroo]

I posted my experiences a couple pages back and I'd like to reiterate the points I made: some people can prepare themselves mentally and not be affected but only if they know its coming. Trigger warnings are part of self care. The proper way to deal with them is to remove yourself, not stop the show.

Also since we're getting into trigger warnings on TV, does anyone here reddit? When posts there are tagged nsfw for nsfl, that's sort of trigger warnings, but also warnings for people who can't do gore or are at work. But it doesn't change the content, it just allows the person to chose whether they should be opening that link right now. And it's extremely necessary for those browsing at work.

Trigger warnings are part of self care to make sure you keep yourself in the right state of mind. It's not coddling anymore than a diabetic asking for nutritional information (thanks to whoever made that analogy a few pages back). The diabetic is responsible for their own health but they still need to ask the person who made the food what is in it so they don't screw up their blood sugar when there isn't a nutritional label.

[sockinshoe]

And that includes racist, bigot, nazi and islamophobe??

For someone who sure seems to want everyone to forget about that incident (where you posted some unbelievably xenophobic material), you sure bring it up a lot. You also seem to enjoy hurling insults at people who think differently... Although you allege you're being marginalized for your differing opinions. I mean really, latraviata, referring to survivors as "professional victims" is unbecoming of someone who has been soooo victimized by others.

[latraviata]

For someone who sure seems to want everyone to forget about that incident (where you posted some unbelievably xenophobic material), you sure bring it up a lot. You also seem to enjoy hurling insults at people who think differently... Although you allege you're being marginalized for your differing opinions. I mean really, latraviata, referring to survivors as "professional victims" is unbecoming of someone who has been soooo victimized by others.

That is an example of selective indignation! How many times the incident of that faulty link is going to be used? And even if I had posted the link knowingly, that justifies the use of swear words, so suddenly we are no longer polite and nuanced? Moreover, the words were used long before I placed the infamous link.

Yes professional victim (I didn't use plurals), if I needed TWs for all my personal traumata, which I will not elaborate, because it is none of anyone's business there must be a sign next to my bed, the moment I wake up. I never claimed to be soooooo victimised by others and I never will, that is not in my nature. I am not a victim and I refuse to act like one.

It is not my idea not to use any swear words.

[FundieFarmer]

LaTraviata, I totally understand where you are coming from, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, whether or not others agree. More power to you for not needing to utilize TWs or other similar aids. As I've said, I certainly think that is a very good point for to reach in healing, if it is possible.

But I do have to say, your attitude concerns me, knowing that you were/are a psychologist/psychiatrist. If you are currently counseling and that is your perspective, please reconsider. It does far more damage than I think you understand.

[nausicaa]

tell me how to have a proper discussion!!!

Te racist/islamophobe spell doesn't work anymore, nor does the generalisation card.

We have passed that station. Gone are the days that we started our criticism with, "I know they are many hardworking law abiding....." I am talking about the ones........Everybody with half a brain understands that one prefers to address a problem and it doesn't always apply to everybody, to a hell of a lot it does though, but not everybody! Anyway thanks for your sermon, lecture, you choose.

Your comment in an earlier thread, word for word:

"All 1,6 billion Muslims, yes pretty much, even here in Europe in their closed sharia communities."

That is not you just addressing a problem without a wordy, unnecessary disclaimer, that is you lumping in millions of people into one dangerously negative stereotype.

And how can you rail at us Americans for not understanding Muslim communities in Europe, when you assume your experience with Dutch Muslim communities is the representative for all Muslims in the world?

[latraviata]

Your comment in an earlier thread, word for word:

"All 1,6 billion Muslims, yes pretty much, even here in Europe in their closed sharia communities."

That is not you just addressing a problem without a wordy, unnecessary disclaimer, that is you lumping in millions of people into one dangerously negative stereotype.

And how can you rail at us Americans for not understanding Muslim communities in Europe, when you assume your experience with Dutch Muslim communities is the representative for all Muslims in the world?

Yes and you are unable to read any sarcasm in this?

Are we having this discussion again?

I am out.

[latraviata]

LaTraviata, I totally understand where you are coming from, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, whether or not others agree. More power to you for not needing to utilize TWs or other similar aids. As I've said, I certainly think that is a very good point for to reach in healing, if it is possible.

But I do have to say, your attitude concerns me, knowing that you were/are a psychologist/psychiatrist. If you are currently counseling and that is your perspective, please reconsider. It does far more damage than I think you understand.

You may have doubts about my skills as a psychologist, (which I find rather presumptuous) believe it or not, but there is a huge cultural difference between the US and the Netherlands, we hardly do WTs and use a completely different methods to deal with personal traumata.

One of the advantages of retirement and not to wear the professional hat anymore, I can freely say what I think.

Am I on the Dr Phil forum???

[nausicaa]

That is an example of selective indignation! How many times the incident of that faulty link is going to be used? And even if I had posted the link knowingly, that justifies the use of swear words, so suddenly we are no longer polite and nuanced? Moreover, the words were used long before I placed the infamous link.

Yes professional victim (I didn't use plurals), if I needed TWs for all my personal traumata, which I will not elaborate, because it is none of anyone's business there must be a sign next to my bed, the moment I wake up. I never claimed to be soooooo victimised by others and I never will, that is not in my nature. I am not a victim and I refuse to act like one.

It is not my idea not to use any swear words.

I can understand your frustration at feeling like one mistake you made is being brought up again and again.

But at least for me, it's that it wasn't just a "faulty link." You praised a man who a simple Google search reveals is essentially a white supremacist.

You recommended and linked to his website, the first page of which is covered in conspiracy theories, anti-Semitic material, and obviously unprofessional content (George $oros?). You then posted a few videos about immigrants to Europe that were laughably biased propaganda.

Look, I disagree with pretty much every point PregnantPornStar had to make on the Islam threads, but girlfriend was at least referencing valid and legit sources for her arguments.

I'm more concerned about the fact that you supposedly have a PhD, yet lack the basic ability to vet sources over the internet. How did you not see through the Alfred Vierling site after one glance at it? For me, you have not adequately addressed that issue.

[nausicaa]

Yes and you are unable to read any sarcasm in this?

Are we having this discussion again?

I am out.

Maybe it's just my American thickness and complete lack of a sense of humor (on top of everything, I'm southern :o !), but I reread your quote in context, and it still doesn't seem to be sarcasm. It doesn't make any sense as sarcasm.

You were disagreeing with my opinion about the variety amongst Islamic beliefs. Why would you suddenly use sarcasm that would support my point?

[latraviata]

Maybe it's just my American thickness and complete lack of a sense of humor (on top of everything, I'm southern :o !), but I reread your quote in context, and it still doesn't seem to be sarcasm. It doesn't make any sense as sarcasm.

You were disagreeing with my opinion about the variety amongst Islamic beliefs. Why would you suddenly use sarcasm that would support my point?

I will stone myself to death shortly.

The entire event will be filmed by an unbiased and reliable party, such as, the Independent, Dutch News.nl, also including the official declaration of my death by a politically unprejudiced. and PC physician.

The berieved will, after a thorough screening for political correctness, publish the footage on Free Jinger with a trigger warning, as recorded testamentary by (compos mentis) the undersigned.

Latraviata

[FakePigtails]

I figured she'd manage to outdo her previous questioning of whether I wanted her to kill herself when I brought up the same points a week or two ago.

[FundieFarmer]

You may have doubts about my skills as a psychologist, (which I find rather presumptuous) believe it or not, but there is a huge cultural difference between the US and the Netherlands, we hardly do WTs and use a completely different methods to deal with personal traumata.

One of the advantages of retirement and not to wear the professional hat anymore, I can freely say what I think.

Am I on the Dr Phil forum???

I don't mean to be presumptuous. I speak as a patient who had a counselor say similar things to me. It did a fair amount of damage, because I wasn't ready for it. I just would hate for anyone else to go through that, especially in what is supposed to be a safe setting.

If you don't mind expounding, what are the differences in practice that you use in the Netherlands? I'm interested in the differences in cultural approaches to this issue.

[nausicaa]

I will stone myself to death shortly.

The entire event will be filmed by an unbiased and reliable party, such as, the Independent, Dutch News.nl, also including the official declaration of my death by a politically unprejudiced. and PC physician.

The berieved will, after a thorough screening for political correctness, publish the footage on Free Jinger with a trigger warning, as recorded testamentary by (compos mentis) the undersigned.

Latraviata

How on earth did any of my comments above justify this response?

I was really making an effort to be fair, avoid ad hominem attacks, and not be glib. I also think I made it very clear what I have an issue with. I don't need you self-flagellating for all eternity, why the hell would I want that? I am interested in an answer to why you couldn't see through the Alfred Vierling website sooner. Obviously you are not required to give an answer, but I don't understand the justification for the comment above.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

As a professional I had to learn (sometimes the hard way, it happens to invest a lot on a person's possibility to change and never see said change happen) that when people aren't ready and/or aren't willing (for fear or whatever reason) to go on and conquer the next step in their healing process there's no way you can make them do that step, whatever strategy/therapy/philosophy you apply. With this I absolutely don't mean that strategies/therapies aren't useful, on the contrary, I only mean that you can only offer an help from the outside, the person will act his/her change. As Terrie already stated all too well, it is arrogant, presumptuous and demeaning to think you can make someone change as it is to make choices for someone else. Also as explained 8of1, sometimes it can be totally counter productive, sending an unprepared person spiralling uncontrollably backwards and doing a lot more damage than good.

I try to explain with an example. When I was a child, more or less around 8yo, I went with my class accompanied by our teacher to the Natural History Museum. I had a lot of fun until we arrived in front of a sort of glass cage (don't know the English term) with the skeleton of some ancient man. At the time I was scared to death by skeletons (I grew up, now it's very difficult to scare me) and, profiting of being very short (I am still), I kept my distance and didn't looked at it. The teacher, an old style, sometimes very harsh, male teacher, noticed my moves, asked me why and I explained I was scared and didn't want to look. Since he strongly believed in not coddling children, facing fears etc, he took me in his arms and lifted me up to make me look. I closed my eyes and saw nothing (no damage was caused to me, but you can bet I never trusted that teacher again).

This is what happens when people are unprepared and/or unwilling to face something. Sometimes they simply walk away, close their ears or their eyes, sometimes they suffer a lot because taken by surprise they don't manage to shield themselves, sometimes, as described very well by 8of11, their brain goes in shut down (a defensive mechanism), with a more or less severe fallout, experiencing more or less severe cognitive dissonances or disconnection.

Clearly we cannot help when this happens for a chance, it's none's fault, it happens. But when we are in a situation where we know, or we suspect, that a tw can be useful for someone to be better prepared and have a choice, why taking away that choice? When we know all too well that, if people aren't ready for a change, whatever we make them hear or see cannot have a positive impact? Let people decide if they are ready or not.

With this I tried to explain why the "coddling" argument doesn't make sense to me.

Just to clarify, I repeat it for the millionth time, I am not for censoring anything and even less for pc driven TWs, if TWs start to be issued for nothing whatever benefit can come from a well meant tw gets lost.

[Whoosh]

This post may well go over like a lead balloon with many people, but I am gonna roll with it anyway. Although I have been internet diagnosed from across the pond as a "professional victim", I actually have a pretty thick skin and am prepared for all manner of responses (or perhaps none at all).

I think there is a lot of truth to the fact that there are cultural differences when it comes to attitudes and opinions about things like trigger warnings. I think it is worthwhile for everyone to try to keep that in mind and to recognize that open and honest discussions about how certain issues are viewed across cultures can be great and a huge opportunity to learn and to expand our views.

That said, I am fairly certain that depression and PTSD are recognized as two entirely different disorders - even in Europe. When I encounter a purported PhD level retired mental health professional who seems incapable of recognizing or acknowledging the difference between these two very different disorders, I tend to think there is something more going on than mere cultural differences or differences in how one views a particular issue. When similar behavior occurs across several topics, that hypothesis becomes stronger. If I were conversing with someone with very little knowledge about mental health issues, I might point out the fact that the person confused the two disorders and try to explain the difference between the two. When someone has clearly been exposed to this information and (one would assume) had a solid understanding of the differences in the past and yet currently seems unable to recognize the distinction between the two, I tend to think that lack of knowledge or awareness is not the issue and there is something else going on.

In that type of situation (being the victim coddling sap that I am), I typically tend to cut the person some slack when it comes to other issues. I am not saying that we should suddenly pretend that PTSD and depression are the same thing or that it is suddenly OK to post hate speech, but my reaction to such behavior is informed by my larger understanding of what might be going on.

Just my hypersensitive two cents based on a few months worth of reading on FJ. No one needs to agree or care.

[sawasdee]

Woosh - I take my (metaphorical) hat off to you - a more tolerant and empathetic response than I could even imagine!

[latraviata]

I don't mean to be presumptuous. I speak as a patient who had a counselor say similar things to me. It did a fair amount of damage, because I wasn't ready for it. I just would hate for anyone else to go through that, especially in what is supposed to be a safe setting.

If you don't mind expounding, what are the differences in practice that you use in the Netherlands? I'm interested in the differences in cultural approaches to this issue.

What did I say to my patients? What do you know about how I treated my patients, you think the same as I speak to my beloved coFJers?

Expounding the differences in methods? I don't mean this in a rude way, but Google it. I don't feel like explaining anything at all. Not the infamous link, my PhD's nor my Professorship.

[sawasdee]

What did I say to my patients? What do you know about how I treated my patients, you think the same as I speak to my beloved coFJers?

Expounding the differences in methods? I don't mean this in a rude way, but Google it. I don't feel like explaining anything at all. Not the infamous link, my PhD's nor my Professorship.

????????WTF? So................don't question me, it's rude. Ok, got that...............no questions, any queries to your declarations, just google.Ok - got it... :?

ETA riffles

[nausicaa]

What did I say to my patients? What do you know about how I treated my patients, you think the same as I speak to my beloved coFJers?

Expounding the differences in methods? I don't mean this in a rude way, but Google it. I don't feel like explaining anything at all. Not the infamous link, my PhD's nor my Professorship.

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