Bates Family - Part 4

[HermioneSparrow]

I have hope for them, too. Chad seems like a great guy fundie or not, so I don't see him pushing Erin to pop a lot of babies, also Erin seems smart TO ME, unlike other fundies but who knows? We'll just have to wait and see...

[grandmadugger]

Chad seemed visibly upset when the doctor was explaining about the uterus issues Erin had during delivery.  I just can't see a guy who looked so upset by that would force his wife to have more children.

[Georgiana]

Unlike many other fundie wives, Erin has a lot of drive for accomplishments outside of the home AND an identity apart from bearing children.  I think for many fundie wives, even if their husbands wanted them to stop having children, they would resist because being continually pregnant/nursing/weaning is WHO THEY ARE.  

Erin has a ministry besides making babies.  A purpose outside of her home, a way to spend her time and be social and be an individual without having a mega-family.  I think that it will be easier for her to give up the mega-family dream because she doesn't need it the way Michelle and the Duggar women seem to.  She's distinguished herself on her own.  

[grandmadugger]

Unlike many other fundie wives, Erin has a lot of drive for accomplishments outside of the home AND an identity apart from bearing children.  I think for many fundie wives, even if their husbands wanted them to stop having children, they would resist because being continually pregnant/nursing/weaning is WHO THEY ARE.  

Erin has a ministry besides making babies.  A purpose outside of her home, a way to spend her time and be social and be an individual without having a mega-family.  I think that it will be easier for her to give up the mega-family dream because she doesn't need it the way Michelle and the Duggar women seem to.  She's distinguished herself on her own.  

And that's the one nice thing about the Bates.  They allowed their children to have identities.  It may have been because they needed money coming in but their children aren't cookie cutters.  The Bates children have a better chance when they break free because of this. 

[formergothardite]

The Bates gave their children very limited identity though. If Erin had not been talented and had a passion for piano(I feel sorry for the Duggar children because it is clear that none of them are particularly musically talented yet they were forced into it because it is an approved activity) and instead had a passion for something that wasn't ATI approved the Bates would have shut her down in a second. 

[doubleT]

I'm not a Bates leg humper or anything like that, but Gil and Kelly have differed from the Duggar and Maxwell headships in the way of offering and even encouraging higher education for their children.  Zach and Lawson were allowed to pursue careers outside of the family business and all the children have all been able to take classes at Crown College if they wanted to.  Now maybe it is only because Gil can't support them all or doesn't have enough work to employee all the boys in the tree trimming business, but for whatever reason, they are supportive of it and from my point of view (non fundie), its a good thing.  Carlin and Tori certainly have had a lot more freedom and opportunities than Jinger and Joy have had. 

 

[singsingsing]

I wouldn't be so optimistic. Whenever this discussion comes up I think of Jen Fulwiler who was a highly intelligent, well-educated atheist who converted to conservative Catholicism after the birth of her first child. It was during either her second or third pregnancy that she found out she had a life-threatening blood clotting disorder. Not sure if it's the same one Erin has, but it's at least as bad, if not worse. Luckily for her, she's a Catholic, so she can at least use NFP to avoid future pregnancies, right? LOL! Nope, she went on to have several more kids, paying for the insanely expensive shots she had to give herself in the stomach every day, at one point ending up in the hospital with blood clots in both lungs, and still joking about how she's bad at NFP. Literally, she jokes about this. She thinks it's cute. And after the last pregnancy that almost ended her life and her son's life and left her husband without a wife and her children without a mother, she made an extra special little blog post about how she'd 'never say never' to more babies. 

So yeah. I hope to God that Erin listens to her doctors and takes this very seriously. But for now I have a hard time believing that she will.

[Eponine]

I'm not a Bates leg humper or anything like that, but Gil and Kelly have differed from the Duggar and Maxwell headships in the way of offering and even encouraging higher education for their children.  Zach and Lawson were allowed to pursue careers outside of the family business and all the children have all been able to take classes at Crown College if they wanted to.  Now maybe it is only because Gil can't support them all or doesn't have enough work to employee all the boys in the tree trimming business, but for whatever reason, they are supportive of it and from my point of view (non fundie), its a good thing.  Carlin and Tori certainly have had a lot more freedom and opportunities than Jinger and Joy have had. 

 

This should probably be: "encouraging higher education for their [male] children," and the same goes for career choices. I mean yes, the older girls were able to take classes at Crown College, but what if Erin had wanted to be a scientist or doctor rather than a music teacher? They probably would have allowed her to take classes in "appropriate" subjects only, and I seriously doubt they would have encouraged her career path if that were the case.

While I agree that the Bates seem to give their girls a bit more freedom than some of the other fundie families, we shouldn't forget that the Bates girls are still incredibly restricted compared to most young women in the US. Erin happened to have a passion that fit in well with fundie culture - she would have a much harder time holding onto her "career" if it had been in most other fields. I'd be interested to see what would happen if one of the younger girls develops an interest in a non-fundie-approved area - I'm sure they'd be discouraged as quickly as they would be in Duggarland.

(Not knocking being a piano teacher - I'm one myself!)

[justoneoftwo]

I wouldn't be so optimistic. Whenever this discussion comes up I think of Jen Fulwiler who was a highly intelligent, well-educated atheist who converted to conservative Catholicism after the birth of her first child. It was during either her second or third pregnancy that she found out she had a life-threatening blood clotting disorder. Not sure if it's the same one Erin has, but it's at least as bad, if not worse. Luckily for her, she's a Catholic, so she can at least use NFP to avoid future pregnancies, right? LOL! Nope, she went on to have several more kids, paying for the insanely expensive shots she had to give herself in the stomach every day, at one point ending up in the hospital with blood clots in both lungs, and still joking about how she's bad at NFP. Literally, she jokes about this. She thinks it's cute. And after the last pregnancy that almost ended her life and her son's life and left her husband without a wife and her children without a mother, she made an extra special little blog post about how she'd 'never say never' to more babies. 

So yeah. I hope to God that Erin listens to her doctors and takes this very seriously. But for now I have a hard time believing that she will.

My optimism is cautious, based only on the fact that they hinted at believing doctors.  Its totally possible she will be even crazier instead.  

[Charliemae]

quoting myself because it's on topic:  

1. These people are terrifying. They are so much more palatable than the Duggars. It's hard to remember that they have the same dangerous belief system.  

2. Branding is powerful. The Duggar brand is all about being a solid family unit and all the differences a big family has.  The Bates brand is just your average American family that happens to have 19 kids. They can really suck you in. 

3. The openness about their religion somehow feels even more deceitful. They really pass themselves off as everyday run of the mill mainstream Christians. There is just enough God and prayer, but no mentions of their unique religious beliefs, or how involved they are in the system. Gill is never mentioned as a church leader.

4. Oh my word Carlin is obnoxious! I mean if you put me in front of a camera at that age it would have been pretty bad. But Damn that child is hard to watch.

I have to go so I'll call this part one of my Bates debriefing.

 

I never followed up on this.  Here is the thing.  We can snark on insignificant detail tell the cows come home.  At the root, these two families have identical dangerous beliefs.  The patriarchs have different strengths and weakness sand we see that come through in their mega families.  Those differences are insignificant.  If anything the Bates are higher up on the Gathard ladder.  If anything they are worse than the Duaggrs. 

[HereticHick]

I am curious if "aspiring country singer" Lawson snuck over to a friend's house (or maybe to Zach & Whit's house) to watch the Country Music Awards show last night on tv. I can totally see Zach and Whit watching tv (& letting their siblings sleep over & watch). Alyssa, too.

[Charliemae]

I am curious if "aspiring country singer" Lawson snuck over to a friend's house (or maybe to Zach & Whit's house) to watch the Country Music Awards show last night on tv. I can totally see Zach and Whit watching tv (& letting their siblings sleep over & watch). Alyssa, too.

I have my own suspicion that an rebelliousness Zach had ended when he became a God, Patriarch father. 

[doubleT]

This should probably be: "encouraging higher education for their [male] children," and the same goes for career choices. I mean yes, the older girls were able to take classes at Crown College, but what if Erin had wanted to be a scientist or doctor rather than a music teacher? They probably would have allowed her to take classes in "appropriate" subjects only, and I seriously doubt they would have encouraged her career path if that were the case.

While I agree that the Bates seem to give their girls a bit more freedom than some of the other fundie families, we shouldn't forget that the Bates girls are still incredibly restricted compared to most young women in the US. Erin happened to have a passion that fit in well with fundie culture - she would have a much harder time holding onto her "career" if it had been in most other fields. I'd be interested to see what would happen if one of the younger girls develops an interest in a non-fundie-approved area - I'm sure they'd be discouraged as quickly as they would be in Duggarland.

(Not knocking being a piano teacher - I'm one myself!)

No, I certainly didn't forget any of what you wrote when I posted above.  In fact, I think the males can probably only study certain things too.  I'm sure the parents have to agree to the career that the boys choose and even the classes they take. 

 

[Georgiana]

While the Bates do encourage "college education" for their kids, they encourage only an extremely small and non-accredited institution.  Lack of accreditation means that credits from Crown College mean next to nothing in the world outside of the extremely Fundie Christian.  You cannot be a doctor, lawyer, etc. because those professions require an education from an accredited university.  Tori would probably run into issues with her Education degree if she wanted to use it in an actual school.

Remember: Erin got a FULL RIDE scholarship to a University that her parents encouraged her to turn down because of the scary outside world.  Is she in a better position now than most fundie wives?  Yes.  But going to a program like U of Tenn would have put her even further ahead.  She could have been a concert pianist.  She could have been so many things with her talent.  They ALL could be.

But we'll never know what they could have been because of their parents' beliefs.  

[formergothardite]

Gil and Kelly are good at giving the illusion that they give their kids more freedom, when really their kids have followed the ATI path more than the Duggars have. 

[singsingsing]

I never got the impression that Zach was really rebellious, anyway. I think he got burned by his failed courtship, then he happened to meet a girl on his own he really liked, and said, "Screw it, I'm doing this my way." But his way wasn't really all that divergent from his parents', and in the end that was enough for him. Still hope they'll go fundie lite (or better) of course...

Did Erin actually get a full ride scholarship? I remember in the Josh & Anna Wedding episode she said some lady had just offered her a scholarship after hearing her play, but was it ever a formal thing? (I don't watch Bringing Up Bates, so I have no idea if it was mentioned on their show or something)

[HereticHick]

I would very much like to know more about Erin's  alleged "full ride scholarship" to the University of Tennessee, because I have doubts that a Bates child could get admitted to UT. Here are the freshman admission requirements:

http://admissions.utk.edu/apply/requirements/

• 4 units of English
• 2 units of algebra
• 1 unit of geometry
• 1 unit of trigonometry, calculus, statistics, or other advanced math
• 1 unit of biology
• 1 unit of chemistry or physics
• 1 unit of additional science
• 1 unit of American history
• 1 unit of European history, world history, or world geography
• 2 units of a single foreign language
• 1 unit of visual or performing arts

[mango_fandango]

Aren't the only courses available at Crown Jeebus-related anyway? There's the seminary/Bible school, the School of Education (where Tori takes classes IIRC) and the Music Conservatory, among others. I don't think there are any science/medicine degrees there. Like doubleT says, I bet G and K would have some kind of say in what they do. The kids are allowed to be Emergency Medical Responders or whatever they're called, and some of the Bateses volunteer with the Fire Department (including Michael, well, she used to anyway) but I doubt the guys would be allowed to be legit doctors.

I echo what others say about the Bateses in general. I bet they took notice of the Duggars and consequently try to market themselves as more personable whilst still retaining their beliefs. Both the Duggars and Bateses are part of the same poisonous cult, but the Bateses seem nicer. Which, as others have said, makes them more dangerous. 

[Seven Severn]

The Bates gave their children very limited identity though. If Erin had not been talented and had a passion for piano(I feel sorry for the Duggar children because it is clear that none of them are particularly musically talented yet they were forced into it because it is an approved activity) and instead had a passion for something that wasn't ATI approved the Bates would have shut her down in a second. 

Whaddya mean "none of them are particularly musically talented"? Have you forgotten? Jana is a concert pianist!

[formergothardite]

HeretickHick, I just noticed your location and it made me laugh. 

[Coconut Flan]

Did Erin actually get a full ride scholarship? I remember in the Josh & Anna Wedding episode she said some lady had just offered her a scholarship after hearing her play, but was it ever a formal thing? (I don't watch Bringing Up Bates, so I have no idea if it was mentioned on their show or something).

All I ever remembered hearing was scholarship which could be $200 if admitted.  It's only been in internet commentary after the fact that I've seen the full ride mentioned.  I highly doubt there are many (if any) full ride music scholarships offered at UT.   

[Georgiana]

I could be wrong.  I thought it was a full scholarship, but I'm not sure where I heard that.  

[for_the_Kitties]

I'm pretty sure her piano teacher is a professor at U of T and helped her get the scholarship and admitted into the music program - this is, however, all contingent on if she even got into U of T. I do not think the scholarship amount was ever specified. 

Sure, she may have been able to get in to U of T, and take remedial courses to catch up on the core subjects all while taking her music coursework. It may have taken her a few extra years to graduate but it would not have been impossible for her. 

[HermioneSparrow]

I remember the scholarship but i don't remember if it was a full ride. Sigh... Yes, The Bates are as awful as the Duggars, it's sad cause i think Erin is very talented.. She could have been a great concert pianist.

I'm mad when parents limit their kids, in this case all of these fundies have crippled those kids... I just finished my degree in Education and i've had so many opportunities, I think Tori could have been a great teacher in the real world... Sadly, she won't get the chance to at least try.

[AngelGirl8811]

I remember the scholarship but i don't remember if it was a full ride. Sigh... Yes, The Bates are as awful as the Duggars, it's sad cause i think Erin is very talented.. She could have been a great concert pianist.

I'm mad when parents limit their kids, in this case all of these fundies have crippled those kids... I just finished my degree in Education and i've had so many opportunities, I think Tori could have been a great teacher in the real world... Sadly, she won't get the chance to at least try.

There's so much what if, all of these kids could have been great things but they'll never get a chance because of their parents.