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Bates Family - Part 4


Coconut Flan

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Gil and Kelly Bates have 19 kids and a TV show, just like the Duggars used to, only their show is on UP, a Christian channel. Four of the kids are married now with three grandchildren already arrived. We get Michaela and Brandon's wedding next season it seems.

 

 

 

Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24788

Part 2: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25345

Part 3: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26562

 

Archive: viewforum.php?f=101

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Was a little too late to respond to MissBitters post in the last thread, but I agree with her predictions and the one that I think has the shakiest future is Michael and Brandon due to his income being wholly derived from Gothard.

This ATI stuff is just coming to the time where it's showing how unsustainable it can be as the SOTDRT alum come of age and have to support families when most are ill equipped to earn a living. May be wishful thinking but I don't this cult remaining financially solvent long term. Not enough for people like Brandon and David Waller to fill quivers in a spendy COL area where they are now.

When (not if, it is to be hoped) this house of cards comes tumbling down does Brandon have transferable skills by which he can continue to support a large family if he had to get a secular job? Market worth won't include the unspoken stipend and housing benefits they get for being the best kook aid drinkers.

If the people working for Gothard are smart they will have an accurate assessment of their true marketable skills and worth and not accumulate kids and a lifestyle beyond what that would support. Because Gothard has money and if this circus tent collapsed tomorrow he's just fine...the young families like M&B and the Wallers are truly fucked.

(Also MissBitters - love, love, love the avatar!)

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There are enough other fundamentalist organizations to absorb a lot of the younger IBLP types, and a lot of them do have marketable skills (web design, computer work) they have just channeled into IBLP. Josh Duggar was able to parlay being part of a mega family that were ATI poster children into a job at the FRC (of course we all know that ended badly), but there are other fundie groups that would employ them if/when IBLP folds. Brandon did earn some sort of degree in pastoral studies so he could potentially become a missionary or youth pastor or something for the right church. The issue becomes like any other in industry - if the company you work for goes down in flames, does the taint of it reflect on you as well? In the case of ATI/IBLP it's an issue of not only is it your employment, it's also your lifestyle including your social life and your relationships which makes it harder to separate from simply being your job. Time will tell. Did any of the Vision Forum people go on to productive lives?

And let me say it's probably a typo, but "kook aid" really fits for these people!

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There are enough other fundamentalist organizations to absorb a lot of the younger IBLP types, and a lot of them do have marketable skills (web design, computer work) they have just channeled into IBLP. Josh Duggar was able to parlay being part of a mega family that were ATI poster children into a job at the FRC (of course we all know that ended badly), but there are other fundie groups that would employ them if/when IBLP folds. Brandon did earn some sort of degree in pastoral studies so he could potentially become a missionary or youth pastor or something for the right church. The issue becomes like any other in industry - if the company you work for goes down in flames, does the taint of it reflect on you as well? In the case of ATI/IBLP it's an issue of not only is it your employment, it's also your lifestyle including your social life and your relationships which makes it harder to separate from simply being your job. Time will tell. Did any of the Vision Forum people go on to productive lives?

And let me say it's probably a typo, but "kook aid" really fits for these people!

That makes a lot of sense. To my knowledge no one had verified this but given how expensive housing is in the area of Gothard HQ the speculation that either they live in Gothard owned homes or there is some other ILBP housing assistance makes sense to me.

Doesn't mean it's happening, but given how expensive the area is (even in nearby areas which are less pricey) it would be incredibly difficult to adequately house a full quiver on even decent middle class income without some kind of break. But as of now David and Pris only have 2 kids and with Michael and Brandon it's just the two of them so maybe they ship employees somewhere with easier access to affordable housing once they need something big and affordable.

If Michael were my daughter (and I had lost my mind and expected her to never work and have eleventy babies on faith) I'd be nervous that her sole means of support was employed by what could well be a sinking ship. But there are no guarantees with any job and I shouldn't be sitting here questioning whether strangers have a plan B.

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Brandon doesn't seem like someone who would enjoy having a houseful of chaos with tons of kids. He seems to be someone who would like some peace and quiet and order in his life. Michael seems like she really wants kids, but she may not necessarily want 19. I think she will fully submit to Brandon on this and they will space out their kids, probably using a form of NFP.

I don't think any of the kids will have more than 6 kids. They all seem to really love kids and enjoy being part of a big family, but I think they will quickly realize how expensive it is, and Gil has the the grifting market cornered in that part of TN. The local economy wouldn't be able to support 17 or so Bates kids grifting on the regular to support a megafamily.

If that is the plan, they will need to disperse geographically.

Is it my imagination, or did Lawson hit at a courtship in the season finale? They were clever about having the train whistle blowing while he talked about it, but it seemed like a it was meant to be the season's cliff hanger.

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Do we know if the Bates parents have the same crazy views on puberty and normal teen aged hormonal rushes? Do they go to extremes to prevent their kids from masturbating like the Duggars have? DO they teach that normal sexual urges are sinful?

I get the feeling that they are more relaxed with their kids have male/female friendships and have even acknowledged that their kids have had crushes on other kids. I even seem to remember Tori or one of the more outspoken girls commenting on some boy being "hot" or cute. And I have never heard that kind of thing form the Duggar kids.

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Do we know if the Bates parents have the same crazy views on puberty and normal teen aged hormonal rushes? Do they go to extremes to prevent their kids from masturbating like the Duggars have? DO they teach that normal sexual urges are sinful?

I get the feeling that they are more relaxed with their kids have male/female friendships and have even acknowledged that their kids have had crushes on other kids. I even seem to remember Tori or one of the more outspoken girls commenting on some boy being "hot" or cute. And I have never heard that kind of thing form the Duggar kids.

They really aren't. Kelly, who uses horrible, abusive baby training by Ezzo, also uses his books on teaching about sex. It is basically you don't tell your kids anything till they are about to get married, because you want them to be "innocent". They also teach all the regular awful ATI teachings on sex, masturbation and shit like that. No, they aren't any better, they just know how to look better on television so people forget their crazy side.

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I wonder if living in IBLP housing is a requirement for working there. Could Brandon and MIchella say,we are going to buy/rent our own place or is it a mandatory thing? Or is they pay so little that employees have to take the housing to survive? I know of two houses and a multi unit building in the immediate area by the HQ that belongs to IBLP. And it is not a cheap area, property price or tax wise. A guy I dated in HS lived in the area, the area is very nice.

Also, it looks like some children who were raised under the IBLP/ATI principles are starting to back away from them. Zach, Alyssa and Erin seem to all be going fundie light and will Gothard be able to support his employees in this way (housing) if people are not flocking to join or stay (and pay for programming/seminars). Will they keep using the home school curriculum or find a new way of education their kids? Will they force their kids to ALERT or JTTH?

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Brandon doesn't seem like someone who would enjoy having a houseful of chaos with tons of kids. He seems to be someone who would like some peace and quiet and order in his life. Michael seems like she really wants kids, but she may not necessarily want 19. I think she will fully submit to Brandon on this and they will space out their kids, probably using a form of NFP.

Michaela stated that she wanted "as many kids as possible." I think she and Brandon are probably like-minded on this issue. They haven't just drunk the kool-aid- they've marinated in it.

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I'm from Chicago and we moved to the East coast in part because it was pricey to live there, but it was the commute and traffic that did us in. Housing is much more expensive where we live now, but our taxes are way less than they were in Illinois where the taxing bodies are a mess. From what I can tell of the interiors of the houses from the pictures they've posted (I am thinking the Wallers and the Staddons for example), they live in older ranches that are fixed up but definitely not ones that were part of the massive suburban sprawl of subdivisions that sprung up in the '90s in places like Plainfield and Naperville.

It is possible IBLP bought a stock of houses in the area a couple of decades ago - I did a search for David Waller and Robert Staddon and they are listed as in houses in Hinsdale and Oak Brook respectively, with the Staddon house worth about $600K per Zillow and the address listed for Waller as oddly a strip of land with no house (also per Zillow) but which revealed the house next door as "TP-d" [toilet paper in the trees] on the day the Google street view car drove by. It is highly doubtful that either of these two IBLP toadies would ever be able to live in these houses on the salaries they draw from IBLP, so there must be some sort of housing perk, either by providing housing or seriously subsidizing it.

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Michaela stated that she wanted "as many kids as possible." I think she and Brandon are probably like-minded on this issue. They haven't just drunk the kool-aid- they've marinated in it.

I agree that Michaela wants a bunch of kids. They only thing that I think will prevent her from coming close to having 19 like her mother is that she married at age 25 1/2. Unless she has some multiples, & we don't have family evidence of that, it is extremely unlikely that she will have 19, or even 17 kids, before her ovaries give up the ghost.

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I wonder if living in IBLP housing is a requirement for working there. Could Brandon and MIchella say,we are going to buy/rent our own place or is it a mandatory thing? Or is they pay so little that employees have to take the housing to survive? I know of two houses and a multi unit building in the immediate area by the HQ that belongs to IBLP. And it is not a cheap area, property price or tax wise. A guy I dated in HS lived in the area, the area is very nice.

Also, it looks like some children who were raised under the IBLP/ATI principles are starting to back away from them. Zach, Alyssa and Erin seem to all be going fundie light and will Gothard be able to support his employees in this way (housing) if people are not flocking to join or stay (and pay for programming/seminars). Will they keep using the home school curriculum or find a new way of education their kids? Will they force their kids to ALERT or JTTH?

Yep. Oak Brook itself has an median household income of $134k and median housing unit (including condos and town homes) of $715k plus. The mean single family home is 1 mil. However property taxes are amongst the lowest in the county because of the mall and how business heavy it is.

I live in a suburb about 20 miles south of that (also known for its mall) and the property taxes are a lot lower than the surrounding suburbs because of the mall offset so I was curious and looked to see if it was the same for Oak Brook.

Even though my suburb is considerably more affordable than Oak Brook the Gothardites should know the traffic on LaGrange is a nightmare and would keep them much too far from their helpmeets and quivers. I worked in Oak Brook temporarily years ago and so take it from me, fundies, this isn't the place for you. (although the next time I'm pissed at a PP protest fucking up traffic I'm going to look for TFDW's fluorescent hair.

Of course there are cheaper options in nearby Westmont of Oak Brook Terrace, but overall its not an area where you'd want to start out if you didn't have much money. (I know you know this, BDM, just rambling as some people aren't familiar with the area.)

i wonder if the Christmas video the Wallers posted a while back, in front of the fireplace, was in their home. It looked pretty nice from the bit that was shown. And I have no interest in knowing exactly where they live or even the neighborhood so I'd never look (too stalkerish for me) but I do remember seeing that vid and wondering what kind of bank he was pulling in from Gothard. And as petty and shallow as I am it annoyed me that it appeared that they live better on his one income than we do on two. I never let incomplete data get in the way of my envy and self pity. :D

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I'm from Chicago and we moved to the East coast in part because it was pricey to live there, but it was the commute and traffic that did us in. Housing is much more expensive where we live now, but our taxes are way less than they were in Illinois where the taxing bodies are a mess. From what I can tell of the interiors of the houses from the pictures they've posted (I am thinking the Wallers and the Staddons for example), they live in older ranches that are fixed up but definitely not ones that were part of the massive suburban sprawl of subdivisions that sprung up in the '90s in places like Plainfield and Naperville.

It is possible IBLP bought a stock of houses in the area a couple of decades ago - I did a search for David Waller and Robert Staddon and they are listed as in houses in Hinsdale and Oak Brook respectively, with the Staddon house worth about $600K per Zillow and the address listed for Waller as oddly a strip of land with no house (also per Zillow) but which revealed the house next door as "TP-d" [toilet paper in the trees] on the day the Google street view car drove by. It is highly doubtful that either of these two IBLP toadies would ever be able to live in these houses on the salaries they draw from IBLP, so there must be some sort of housing perk, either by providing housing or seriously subsidizing it.

Plainfield...you make my heart hurt. We moved a couple of months ago (just a few miles - same area) and when we were looking I would torture myself by looking online at houses in Plainfield. We could have gotten a beautiful mini-McMansion with 1500 more square feet, a 3 car garage, cathedral ceiling in the foyer, 2 fireplaces, and a much bigger lot for 70k less than we paid for our nothing special split foyer almost as old as I am.

There were loads of lovely homes out there, but this one in particular haunts my dreams. I tried to talk myself into thinking we could do the commute - but with three kids in local college who all work part time, and my head sheep and I stuck in jobs we can't easily leave it was impossible.

But if a similar house is for sale when the kids are out of school and the head sheep is retired from his government job I'll take a job cutting lawns with manicure scissors to live out there.

Or Beecher. I don't know where Beecher is, but there was a breathtaking 5k sq foot house on several acres for 10k less than we paid for our utilitarian cookie cutter.

I am all about wanting what I can't have today. I'll take some deep breaths and make a mental list of what I like about my house. If that doesn't work I'll slap myself for being such an ungrateful bitch regarding choices I made.

But back to the actual topic - with them being in Oak Brook proper and Hinsdale ...I dont know what Staddon does or his educational background but regarding what little I know about Waller unless he's some kind of wunderkind phenom behind the scenes I'd doubt very much he's marketable enough in the secular arena to make Oak Brook money even without the very real hurdles for him of the workplaces being overrun with women in pants and heathens of stripes who will give zero fucks about smacking him down hard if there is even a whiff of his intolerance informing his decisions on the job.

And everyone is googled before an interview these days. He would have to make a concerted effort to distance himself from his bigoted and misognyistic stated beliefs at first contact to keep from being immediately tossed in th "no call" list most places. Not that there isn't sexism and bigotry in a lot of workplaces (sad to say) but hiring someone with a record of it creates a liability most employers are smart enough not to touch.

But as you mentioned earlier, there are other religious organizations - but don't these people get their panties bunched over even minor doctrinal differences? And the higher up the ladder you are the fewer jobs available. I believe Waller is a director - is he the top of the org chart since old Bill left? I mean we know as long as Gothard's alive he's at the top of the real org chart, but the official one where thy pretend he's not at the helm? Is David top dog? either way exec management spots are hard to come by - I think with ILPB tanks he'll have a very real personal crisis when he had to sink or swim.

Upside is I don't see David and Pris having eleventy million babies. Just a gut feeling I think they'll tap out at 5 or less. I can see Michael and Brandon cranking them out every 18 months or so if fertility allows it, but with his pastoral degree maybe they have the option of moving rural and doing the preacher thing where land is cheaper and the local ordinances aren't as particular regarding how many littles you can cram in a house.

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I think Brandon and Michaela are the ones marinated and baked for 24 hours in the ATI koolaid, but at least Michaela seems to genuinely like children, so I'm hopeful she'll actually raise them herself rather than sistermomming them out and won't resort to crap like blanket training. She'll be 26 at the youngest when her first is born though, so I think we'll see something more like 10 from her (if we say a kid every second year until 44, about when the ovaries say ENOUGH) not 19 like her mom.

Alyssa and Zach seem to have remained conservative Christian, but don't seem to have bought into the ATI coolaid, especially given that Zach worked for a 'real' job and Alyssa is wouldn't look out of place hanging out with me and my friends.

Erin....I always thought she was a little marinated in the Koolaid, but I think her health problems made her step back and re-evaluate the quiverfull beliefs, and luckily, she hit the fundie husband jackpot with Chad. No way will he risk her life for a quiver. I could see one more in a couple of years time, MAYBE a third, but I can easily see '2 and done' here.

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I think Brandon and Michaela are the ones marinated and baked for 24 hours in the ATI koolaid, but at least Michaela seems to genuinely like children, so I'm hopeful she'll actually raise them herself rather than sistermomming them out and won't resort to crap like blanket training. She'll be 26 at the youngest when her first is born though, so I think we'll see something more like 10 from her (if we say a kid every second year until 44, about when the ovaries say ENOUGH) not 19 like her mom.

Alyssa and Zach seem to have remained conservative Christian, but don't seem to have bought into the ATI coolaid, especially given that Zach worked for a 'real' job and Alyssa is wouldn't look out of place hanging out with me and my friends.

Erin....I always thought she was a little marinated in the Koolaid, but I think her health problems made her step back and re-evaluate the quiverfull beliefs, and luckily, she hit the fundie husband jackpot with Chad. No way will he risk her life for a quiver. I could see one more in a couple of years time, MAYBE a third, but I can easily see '2 and done' here.

Really? Alyssa married into a ATI family so i think she drinks the ATI koolaid very much... A lot of people into ATI wear pants and tank tops like the Websters... Zach on the other hand married someone who seems to drink a little of the Koolaid now, although i think he is the one who is trying to go fundie lite and Whitney loves him, she just goes with it. Chad and Erin MIGHT change because of her health issues and i agree that Chad loves her so i don't think he'll risk her health under any circumstance but time will tell.

Out of all of the Bates married kids I think Zach and Whitney have the most chance of going to the conservative mainstream route.

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Really? Alyssa married into a ATI family so i think she drinks the ATI koolaid very much... A lot of people into ATI wear pants and tank tops like the Websters

I think John is conservative Christian (and a bigot based on his anti gay marriage post)....but I don't think he's marinated in the Koolaid the same way someone like Brandon is. I don't see a privileged Congressman's son wanting to be in poverty with 20 kids. I think two kids from ATI families can go Fundielite...and I think John and Alyssa are.

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I think John is conservative Christian (and a bigot based on his anti gay marriage post)....but I don't think he's marinated in the Koolaid the same way someone like Brandon is. I don't see a privileged Congressman's son wanting to be in poverty with 20 kids. I think two kids from ATI families can go Fundielite...and I think John and Alyssa are.

John's family was very deep into ATI even if he was a privileged Congressman. I haven't seen really any indication that John and Alyssa aren't following ATI's teachings like both of them have been raised with.

In many ways the Bates kids have shown less signs of rebelling against ATI than the Duggar kids. Except for Zach they all married into ATI families and none of them have shown any real annoyance with the teachings of ATI. At least with the Duggars they have rolled their eyes and looked miserable when talking about courtship and, except for Anna, they haven't been marrying into long time ATI families.

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John's family was very deep into ATI even if he was a privileged Congressman. I haven't seen really any indication that John and Alyssa aren't following ATI's teachings like both of them have been raised with.

In many ways the Bates kids have shown less signs of rebelling against ATI than the Duggar kids. Except for Zach they all married into ATI families and none of them have shown any real annoyance with the teachings of ATI. At least with the Duggars they have rolled their eyes and looked miserable when talking about courtship and, except for Anna, they haven't been marrying into long time ATI families.

Sadly, I agree. Like I said out of all of the married Bates, Zach seems to be the only one who MIGHT go fundie lite. Chad's family is into ATI as well as John's and Brandon's... unlike Jill and Jessa Duggar who married non ATIers but I guess things MIGHT change in the future, we'll see.

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I hope this doesn't sound aggressive or rude but I wanna know why everybody thinks Alyssa and John are rebelling against their beliefs and the way they were raised.. I see no indications of this, yes, she wears pants and tank tops and shorter dresses and skirts, John wear shorts and Allie gets to wear pants... but... That's it, they go to church a lot, are against same sex marriage and got preggo really quickly which indicates no BC whatsoever. Of course it doesn't mean they won't rebel in the future but i think we should be more realistic and less 'dreamy'. They are not conservative christian or even fundie lite. Same goes with Chad and Erin, there's still no indications of them going fundie lite.

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Fundamentalism isn't a black and white thing, like you either are or you aren't. It's a spectrum. So Alyssa and John are further down the spectrum than her family of origin, but they may well still be fundies because of their beliefs or practices. As you get toward the middle of the spectrum, it becomes blurry. It's hard to say when fundie becomes fundie lite and when fundie lite becomes conservative Christian and so on.

Also, level of modesty in dress isn't always the best indicator of level of fundamentalism in other areas. A while back I used to be part of an online community devoted to "modest style". One of the most modest-dressing women there was an atheist who lived with her boyfriend.

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The Duggar kids might show a little bit of rebellion (but is it really rebellion because they roll their eyes?) but Boob and DQ keep their kids uneducated and therefore making them dependent on them. Two out of three married Duggar kids are dependent on their parents (Josh and Jessa). We don't know about Jill & Derrick but I wouldn't be surprised if Boob is generous in supporting them. This is somethings I don't see with the Bates at all. Even fundie queen Erin is happy to teach piano again. Being financially independent means there's a higher chance for the kids to get away from their parents and their beliefs. Also the Bates kids have a lot relatives that are conservative or even mainstream christians whereas the Duggars don't have that (except Amy who seems to be the black sheep).

I know that a lot people think that Alyssa and Michael had to work before they got married because they had to support the family. This might be true but never ever would that happen with the Duggar daughters. What I want to say that even the Bates are as bad in their beliefs as the Duggars they do a better job in preparing their kids to adapt in the world outside of the ATI bubble. And that can make it easier to leave fundamentalism behind. I know one can hope ;)

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The Duggar kids might show a little bit of rebellion (but is it really rebellion because they roll their eyes?) but Boob and DQ keep their kids uneducated and therefore making them dependent on them. Two out of three married Duggar kids are dependent on their parents (Josh and Jessa). We don't know about Jill & Derrick but I wouldn't be surprised if Boob is generous in supporting them. This is somethings I don't see with the Bates at all. Even fundie queen Erin is happy to teach piano again. Being financially independent means there's a higher chance for the kids to get away from their parents and their beliefs. Also the Bates kids have a lot relatives that are conservative or even mainstream christians whereas the Duggars don't have that (except Amy who seems to be the black sheep).

I know that a lot people think that Alyssa and Michael had to work before they got married because they had to support the family. This might be true but never ever would that happen with the Duggar daughters. What I want to say that even the Bates are as bad in their beliefs as the Duggars they do a better job in preparing their kids to adapt in the world outside of the ATI bubble. And that can make it easier to leave fundamentalism behind. I know one can hope ;)

Showing open dislike for ATI beliefs is a bit of a sign of rebellion, something none of the Bates have shown. If the Duggars had not have had the TLC money I could easily see all their kids working like the Bates kids and if the Bates had had TLC money I could easily see them keep their kids from working. The Duggars are at a disadvantage, but I don't think the Bates parents are in some way better because their kids worked. IMO Gil and Kelly most likely would have crippled their children when it came to job if they would have been financially able to do so. Gil and Kelly just show the reality of have a mega family with parents who won't really work. In the end, the kids have to start working because it is impossible to support such a family unless you manage to get a TV show.

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Agreed that if the Bates and Duggar situations were switched, the Duggar kids would be working to help out and the Bates kids would be in the same sitch the Duggar kids are in now. With no education and no work history.

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I don't think Boob would have ever allow that but we will never know. I remember the episode where Jessa and Jinger helped out at a cafe to raise money for orphans and it was a big deal. The question is are Jinger or Jana allowed to work or to study? No they are not. The Bates kids are encouraged to do something even though they have a TV show so money shouldn't be an issue like a couple of years ago. I know they are only allowed to have Gothard approved careers and Clown College is the only option. But I think it's still much better than just sitting around at home like Jana and Jinger.

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Fundamentalism isn't a black and white thing, like you either are or you aren't. It's a spectrum. So Alyssa and John are further down the spectrum than her family of origin, but they may well still be fundies because of their beliefs or practices. As you get toward the middle of the spectrum, it becomes blurry. It's hard to say when fundie becomes fundie lite and when fundie lite becomes conservative Christian and so on.

I absolutely agree about the spectrum of Fundieness.

When it comes to Alyssa and John, I don't give them too much credit for the whole pants thing. His father is a politician on the national level and he needs to be able to appeal to a wide variety of voters. Having children or children-in-laws who dress weird and constantly rant about their extremist views is going to be a detrimental to any campaigns he hopes to win - allowing Alyssa to wear pants and more normal clothing helps him appeal to a larger number of voters, many of whom may not pay close attention to the politician's stances on issues. So, in my opinion, Alyssa in pants has more to do with keeping her father-in-law elected (so he can promote their extremist views on the national level) than it does with either of them being open-minded about clothing.

Erin and Chad. . . I think they have a chance at going less Fundie over time - mostly because of her health issues. But there is no way to know for sure and it wouldn't surprise me if they opted not to prevent future pregnancies regardless of the risks involved.

Michael and Brandon are another story. Both have marinated in the Kool-Aid. I don't see either of them wanting to cut ties with their super conservative beliefs anytime soon. If ATI goes under they may not have a choice, but there are other groups who may be happy enough to take them in and provide employment of some sort.

Zach and Whit may have the best chance at going less Fundie out of the married Bates kids. I think Whit has (unintentionally) shown Zach that you can be less conservative (but still religious) and still be a good person. Combined with a failed courtship and actual work experience, those things may eventually lead him slightly further down the spectrum than his siblings.

I don't think Boob would have ever allow that but we will never know. I remember the episode where Jessa and Jinger helped out at a cafe to raise money for orphans and it was a big deal. The question is are Jinger or Jana allowed to work or to study? No they are not. The Bates kids are encouraged to do something even though they have a TV show so money shouldn't be an issue like a couple of years ago. I know they are only allowed to have Gothard approved careers and Clown College is the only option. But I think it's still much better than just sitting around at home like Jana and Jinger.

The Bates have only had the show for a short period of time - they only have one season aired. Who knows how much money they've actually made so far. It's entirely possible that they continue to encourage their kids to do other things for three reasons:

1. They're unsure how long the show will last and they need a backup plan for income in case it's cancelled suddenly.

2. Encouraging the kids to work outside the home or go to Clown College helps them appear more like the average viewer. People are less likely to be suspicious of a family's dangerous beliefs if they hide them under the guise of appearing normal.

3. They don't make as much money off the show as people assume and they need the additional income from their adult kids.

Also, keep in mind that almost all the Duggar kids were still minors when their show got picked up by TLC. Their parents weren't able to have their kids work outside the home to put food on the table because most of them were still too young to have jobs- excepting Josh, the twins, and possibly Jill (Jessa would have turned 16 a few months after the show started - not sure what the legal age in Arkansas is, but in my state its 16.) At the point the show was picked up, they already had the specials, their house was finished for them, and they had some real estate that generated income as well.

The Bates had a show briefly with TLC as well - but that aired for one season and was cancelled. By the time the show ended, Alyssa was a month or two away from turning 18. . . meaning, they had 6 adult children by the end of that year who were capable of working and at least one minor teenager (Tori) who could work as well.

Note: Please note that to keep things easy and simple, I'm going based off of the age of 16 - also because it seems most of the Fundie kids finish their formal educations around 16 or 17, allowing them more time to pursue employment if allowed. Tennessee and Arkansas both allow children as young as 14 to work outside the home, but there are several restrictions to the amount and type of work they can do. Either way, the Bates had more children capable of working by the time their show happened and ended than the Duggars would have.

Anyone interested in actually breaking it down better than me or who want to know the restrictions can use these websites to help them.

Tennessee child labor information:

tn.gov/workforce/article/child-labor

Arkansas child labor information:

labor.ar.gov/divisions/Pages/childLabor.aspx

Duggars:

Show began: September 2008; 5 pre-show specials aired between 2005 and 2007.

Show ended: July 2015

Number of Seasons: 10

Number of children over 16 when show started: 4

Number of children over 14 when show started: 6

Age Allowed for Employment without a work permit: 16

Bates:

First show began: August 2012; One special aired in March 2012.

First show ended: September 2012

Number of Seasons: 1

Number of children over 16 when show started: 7

Number of children over 14 when show started: 9

Second show began: January 2015

Second show ended: Still running.

Number of Seasons: 1 aired; 1 set to air in early 2016.

Number of children over 16 when show started: 9

Number of children over 14 when show started: 11

Age Allowed for Employment without a permit: Work permits not required

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