Airline passenger asked to move for religious accomodation

[Flyinthesoup]

After reading the article, I see the flight attendant was a male. If there had been no male flight attendant, only women, would he have looked at her and have the female flight attendant have the female passenger moved? I am a little confused as to what the 'rule's for his religion are. Is he not allowed to sit next to women (except his own wife), but he's allowed to speak to them? Obviously he would not have encountered males, only, all along his journey. Do they just grunt and gesture to get people to do what they want?

[Jana814]

I would like give a lot of credit to the woman in this situation. She stayed calm and made sure her story was told. Often times in situations like this people freak out and the focus of the story turns to them and how they should have reacted, instead of the issue at hand. She is a good example for others.

Agree!!

[2xx1xy1JD]

After reading the article, I see the flight attendant was a male. If there had been no male flight attendant, only women, would he have looked at her and have the female flight attendant have the female passenger moved? I am a little confused as to what the 'rule's for his religion are. Is he not allowed to sit next to women (except his own wife), but he's allowed to speak to them? Obviously he would not have encountered males, only, all along his journey. Do they just grunt and gesture to get people to do what they want?

There is a general rule in Orthodox Judaism against physical contact with someone of the opposite sex who is not (1) a direct relative, (2) a child, or (3) your spouse, unless it's a case of necessity (so a doctor is ok).

There's an existing ruling from a well-respected American rabbi that said that accidental, unavoidable physical contact with the opposite sex on public transportation is not a violation of the general rule against touching some of the opposite sex other than your spouse. The problem is holier-than-thou groups that don't follow this ruling, practice extreme sheltering and put avoiding the opposite sex above basic human decency. Years ago, I encountered one guy like this, who was upset that I was sitting by a path leading to the men's side of the Western Wall. [i know the rules of the area and wouldn't actually go to the men's side, and I would dress properly on the women's side, but I was wearing shorts and didn't feel like going the the Wall prayer area itself and was waiting for my husband and BIL.] Suddenly, this guys near me starts screaming "It is forbidden...." I ignored him, because I generally ignore screaming strange guys. He doesn't stop. After 5 min., it occurs to me that he might be referring to me. I pretend I can't hear him. Finally, he finds a more secular-looking guy, asks him to get my attention and tell me that I can't sit there. Because screaming in my direction for 10 minutes is somehow holier than simply approaching me and saying something directly to me in a normal voice.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

It seems to me that this kind of religious issue could be fairly easily accommodate if the person would just POLITELY tell a flight attendant "I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but my faith dictates that I not touch a woman who is not my wife and I am afraid I might inadvertently touch a woman sitting next to me and I also don't want to offend by my efforts to be sure I follow my own guidelines during the flight. Would it be at all possible for one of us to trade seats with someone else?" It's still kind of icky but it puts the issue on that guy and not other people and it really wouldn't be that hard to switch. I've done it tons so people could sit next to someone in their own family.

People are generally pretty accommodating when stuff is presented as asking for an accommodation because "I know it's weird and totally my own problem but could you help me out?" kinda thing. Most people are willing to make minor adjustments for the comfort of others if they can.

I have two weird food related things that have come up at work and although I try desperately to deal with them without involving others sometimes I just have to throw myself on the mercy of the person ordering lunch. But I own my weirdness - it's me, not them and yes, if I ever discover the cause of my quirk I'll let them know because I do get that my irrational discomfort is entertaining. But I have an aversion to not just eating but seeing two common foods and if either are on a plate in a lunch meeting I will not be able to think of anything else except getting out of there, by window jump if necessary. Seeing other people eat them will trigger my gag reflex and if I can't leave I'll actually vomit. The other is misophonia which I've gotten largely under control except for the super loud kettle chips, so if those are served in a meeting I'll leave the room because the noise is rage inducing and of course you can't tell people you otherwise like that while they are chewing they are the devil and you hate them more than you could possibly put into words. So I just head to the bathroom a lot.

I've never once had anyone turn down my request to avoid those couple of things - even though no one has ever understood why. You'd think people who go through life asking other people to accommodate them due to archaic gender rules would learn how to own it...or at least fake a little diplomacy.

[DGayle]

I mentioned this to my husband and he said there is no way he'd have ever changed seats to accommodate this guy, and then he hesitated and said he actually would if the woman would prefer that because she didn't want to sit next to the jerk all flight. Then he said he'd spend the rest of the flight being the most annoying seatmate this douche ever had. He was shocked that the airline even made the request - he'd have thought this would have been the same as refusing to sit next to someone of another race and regarding outrage and couldn't believe this kind of thing happens now.

If I was he woman, I wouldn't want your husband, or any man, to accommodate the sexist. (Religious reasoning or not, it's still sexism.) I'd be fine sitting next to him, and would entirely ignore him. Sitting next to me isn't a shameful or bad thing just because I have a vagina, and if he thinks it is, then he should have bought additional seats. I wouldn't want another group to be split up up appease a sexist. I'm adult enough that I could handle it, and I'd even get some measure of glee in knowing he's uncomfortable because of his own sexism. I'd be upset if someone switched since that would make me feel like something was wrong enough with me to justify switching.

[Black Aliss]

There's an existing ruling from a well-respected American rabbi that said that accidental, unavoidable physical contact with the opposite sex on public transportation is not a violation of the general rule against touching some of the opposite sex other than your spouse.

Seems to me he could have protected himself by simply not man-spreading and ceding possession of the armrest to the woman. Tall order, I know.

[greycat]

Yeah if he would have just been nice about it, as many has said, then ya I would have been annoyed but would have moved. As soon as someone acts they are better than me, or are even rude to me all manners go out the window for me. This woman handled it very well.

I'm sure he is feeling validated where he once again got his way. Ugh

[thoughtful]

Y'know, I'm generally not a vindictive person, and I hate teasing.

But I am the youngest sibling in my family, and I never got to pass on the obnoxious stuff older siblings do to younger ones. There is one routine my brother pulled on me that I think would fit.

I love the idea of sitting near this guy, pointing a finger and bringing it closer and closer to him, grinning and saying "What? I'm not touching you! You can't complain! I'm not touching youuuuuuu!"

I wouldn't have the nerve to do it IRL, but the thought is entertaining.

OK, I have to pull myself back up from thinking like a 10-year-old, to my normal age, and go teach other people's children now. :embarrassed: :lol:

[church_of_dog]

Y'know, I'm generally not a vindictive person, and I hate teasing.

But I am the youngest sibling in my family, and I never got to pass on the obnoxious stuff older siblings do to younger ones. There is one routine my brother pulled on me that I think would fit.

I love the idea of sitting near this guy, pointing a finger and bringing it closer and closer to him, grinning and saying "What? I'm not touching you! You can't complain! I'm not touching youuuuuuu!"

I wouldn't have the nerve to do it IRL, but the thought is entertaining.

OK, I have to pull myself back up from thinking like a 10-year-old, to my normal age, and go teach other people's children now. :embarrassed: :lol:

:lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

Y'know, I'm generally not a vindictive person, and I hate teasing.

But I am the youngest sibling in my family, and I never got to pass on the obnoxious stuff older siblings do to younger ones. There is one routine my brother pulled on me that I think would fit.

I love the idea of sitting near this guy, pointing a finger and bringing it closer and closer to him, grinning and saying "What? I'm not touching you! You can't complain! I'm not touching youuuuuuu!"

I wouldn't have the nerve to do it IRL, but the thought is entertaining.

OK, I have to pull myself back up from thinking like a 10-year-old, to my normal age, and go teach other people's children now. :embarrassed: :lol:

:lol:

I was trying to figure out how I would deal with this situation in this woman's position. I would not move I don't think, but I also have that very British 'don't make a fuss' thing.

I then imagined how I would feel if it was my 12 yr old daughter and to be honest I would just see red.

I really detest the thought that this guy would not wish to sit next to me on a plane but if he required my skills in a medical emergency all of a sudden that is fine. It's very hard not to be very judgemental .

Religion. I think we should just stop that shit now, it's not working :lol:

[ADoyle90815]

Y'know, I'm generally not a vindictive person, and I hate teasing.

But I am the youngest sibling in my family, and I never got to pass on the obnoxious stuff older siblings do to younger ones. There is one routine my brother pulled on me that I think would fit.

I love the idea of sitting near this guy, pointing a finger and bringing it closer and closer to him, grinning and saying "What? I'm not touching you! You can't complain! I'm not touching youuuuuuu!"

I wouldn't have the nerve to do it IRL, but the thought is entertaining.

OK, I have to pull myself back up from thinking like a 10-year-old, to my normal age, and go teach other people's children now. :embarrassed: :lol:

Considering that he's using religion as an excuse to be an asshole, I'd love to see someone do that to him.

:nenner: :pbbt:

[skrimp]

The issue here is that it won't stop at merely refusing to sit *next to* a woman. In Israel it's gotten so ridiculous than women are forced to sit in the back of public transportation that men are riding in and use separate entrances to the bus, and gangs of enforcers harass women and even little girls in the streets for clothing or behavior they perceive as insufficiently modest. Things like this are starting to pop up in ultra Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods in New York too.

See also:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/8 ... e-1.997389

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ore-israel

[Gimme a Free RV]

I love the idea of sitting near this guy, pointing a finger and bringing it closer and closer to him, grinning and saying "What? I'm not touching you! You can't complain! I'm not touching youuuuuuu!"

I'm having fun envisioning Melissa McCarthy doing this to him.

ETA: It would be hilarious, as a female, to walk past him, pretend to trip, and fall in his lap or, to reach for something in the overhead compartment and brush up against him.

[CaptainFunderpants]

I'm having fun envisioning Melissa McCarthy doing this to him.

ETA: It would be hilarious, as a female, to walk past him, pretend to trip, and fall in his lap or, to reach for something in the overhead compartment and brush up against him.

I am horrible/immature enough to do all of those things. If you're going to bring me into your relationship with your imaginary friend, then I'm going to bring you into my relationship with acting like I'm 12 any time I damn well want to.

[latraviata]

Well, it is an option when he insists to make a fool of himself

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[FloraKitty35]

Considering that he's using religion as an excuse to be an asshole, I'd love to see someone do that to him.

:nenner: :pbbt:

Cue him screaming like a little wuss in .....5.4.3.2.1

[Flyinthesoup]

There is a general rule in Orthodox Judaism against physical contact with someone of the opposite sex who is not (1) a direct relative, (2) a child, or (3) your spouse, unless it's a case of necessity (so a doctor is ok).

There's an existing ruling from a well-respected American rabbi that said that accidental, unavoidable physical contact with the opposite sex on public transportation is not a violation of the general rule against touching some of the opposite sex other than your spouse. The problem is holier-than-thou groups that don't follow this ruling, practice extreme sheltering and put avoiding the opposite sex above basic human decency. Years ago, I encountered one guy like this, who was upset that I was sitting by a path leading to the men's side of the Western Wall. [i know the rules of the area and wouldn't actually go to the men's side, and I would dress properly on the women's side, but I was wearing shorts and didn't feel like going the the Wall prayer area itself and was waiting for my husband and BIL.] Suddenly, this guys near me starts screaming "It is forbidden...." I ignored him, because I generally ignore screaming strange guys. He doesn't stop. After 5 min., it occurs to me that he might be referring to me. I pretend I can't hear him. Finally, he finds a more secular-looking guy, asks him to get my attention and tell me that I can't sit there. Because screaming in my direction for 10 minutes is somehow holier than simply approaching me and saying something directly to me in a normal voice.

Thank you for that information! Wow, I can't even imagine such behavior.

[thoughtful]

I'm having fun envisioning Melissa McCarthy doing this to him.

ETA: It would be hilarious, as a female, to walk past him, pretend to trip, and fall in his lap or, to reach for something in the overhead compartment and brush up against him.

That doesn't amuse me as much -- there's something about being able to say "I am keeping within your rules, however arbitrary, but I know this is DRIVING YOU NUTS" that has just the right flavor.

I know the rules for truly obnoxious teasing. I am a little sister. I have survived it. :D

BTW, just in case anyone who has younger siblings thinks I imagine myself an innocent victim, I assure you that I did the obnoxious things younger siblings do to older ones. I don't remember being too much of a tattletale, but I was a master of tagging along, asking a zillion questions, being embarrassing in public, being a big whiny baby, monopolizing Mom, etc.

[fundiefan]

More religious justification for being a dick.

I wouldn't move. I wouldn't even acknowledge the situation. My ticket, my money paid for it, my seat. Don't like it, it's your problem not mine. It is not my responsibility to make sure you follow your religion.

[greycat]

More religious justification for being a dick.

I wouldn't move. I wouldn't even acknowledge the situation. My ticket, my money paid for it, my seat. Don't like it, it's your problem not mine. It is not my responsibility to make sure you follow your religion.

100% agree! :clap:

[LucySnowe]

When I flew to/from Israel I was kind of hoping this would happen so I could raise hell and/or try to get moved to a better cabin. Alas it didn't. I noticed Orthodox couples traveling together would sort this out themselves - i.e. the man would sit on the aisle and the woman on the inside seat because there was another woman in the window seat. Presumably that arrangement would have been swapped if a man had been in the window seat.

I got into the Jerusalem-bound shared taxi, which is a twelve-seater van. I sat in a two-seat section, and a woman across the aisle was in a single seat, and when the van was nearly full an Orthodox man got on, and he basically just waggled his head at the woman and she silently came over to sit beside me. I got the sense that this happens all the time and it's just understood. I probably would have moved if I'd been in the single seat, and afterwards I was trying to figure out why; probably a combination of being in a new country, not knowing whether this was an accepted social norm, and not wanting to argue with anyone at 6am after a red-eye. I'm not going to change his mind and he's not going to change mine.

[MamaJunebug]

Well, it is an option when he insists to make a fool of himself

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Ay. Yi. Yi.

I used to think my church was a little woo-wee for pouring the unconsumed Communion wine on the earth rather than down a common drain. That's mild compared to this.

I've come to understand that the wine/earth instruction is for us, not for God. We need to be reminded of the sanctity we believe is ascribed to common elements once they've been consecrated. God is so far above worrying whether consecrated wine (Her creation) is commingled with dishwater and etc., those also being His creations. It's for us.

So this practice is for the Cohen and his students/followers. That's fine. I was just so relieved to know the baggied traveler wasn't a *woman* whose patriarch had commanded her to be hermetically sealed against the world.

How did he fasten his seatbelt? How did he not suffocate? What did he think his seatmate would do if there were an emergency exit of the plane? ETA: I see, his seatmate is probably a traveling companion of his, so that was worked out. So many questions. As one of the Young Turks said, "Fundamentalism is a sickness." Ok, that's probably a paraphrase. And ETA also, as long as fundamentalism only affects its believers, who am I to call it a sickness??? It's when it damages the lives of those outside the group -- then, yes, sickness.

[VixenToast]

I would never have moved. And I would have made a small stink out of it. Yeah, I'm a women. Hear me roar. Nor would I let my non-existent husband/fiance/boyfriend switch with me. I can handle my own. I could bet on my life that my sons father would have tried to shame me into moving just because I shouldn't be rude or uppity and etc. But I left that abusive douchebag behind long ago.

Then I'd settle into my seat, crack open a book, and ignore him like everyone else. I WOULD try my best not to accidentally touch him because I respect people's religious beliefs. But I won't be moving. Nope.

However I've always said I'd switch seats if a child or a special needs person wanted the window seat :) any day. I rode a plane as a kid and someone let me have their window seat. Unforgettable.

[mamallama]

The guy in the baggie reminds me of something that happened at my grandmother's funeral. We're standing at the cars after the burial and this guy comes up to my mom and say, "I'm sorry I didn't come to the grave but as you know I'm a Cohen."

I was thinking hot damn, ancient family feud or something later his wife explained it. (yawn). Years later I found out my mom didn't have a clue what he was talking about either.

[TheJewAmongUs]

There is a general rule in Orthodox Judaism against physical contact with someone of the opposite sex who is not (1) a direct relative, (2) a child, or (3) your spouse, unless it's a case of necessity (so a doctor is ok).

There's an existing ruling from a well-respected American rabbi that said that accidental, unavoidable physical contact with the opposite sex on public transportation is not a violation of the general rule against touching some of the opposite sex other than your spouse. The problem is holier-than-thou groups that don't follow this ruling, practice extreme sheltering and put avoiding the opposite sex above basic human decency.

But most Haredim follow their sect or their rabbi. Even if I don't agree with their interpretation and practice, I don't expect them to just go along with what some other rabbi publishes.