Am I wrong to find it selfish of Ben & Jessa...?

[Goldduggar]

The house was in an uproar. Two gold chains lay atop a dresser in the master bedroom on the second floor of the house. The usual wearer of those chains was nowhere to be found. Something was wrong, very wrong. The person to whom those two necklaces belonged to never ever took them off, unless she absolutely had to do so. The woman was a single mother of four: three daughters and one son.

I was the youngest daughter of Joanne, the owner of those two gold necklaces.

The police were at the house questioning my two oldest sisters, Jessica and Amy. I can’t recall what my brother was doing, but I know what I was doing. I was sitting in her room, crying. My mother was gone and I didn’t know where she was. I had just turned 11 one week prior and I could not understand the chaos in my young life.

Finally, my oldest sister, Jessica, told me that I had to go to bed. Jessica was crying, but she was trying to be strong, if only for my sake. Everyone in the house was worried about one thing: Mom had done what she’d been threatening to do.

I cried myself to sleep, in fear of what would happen in the morning. When morning came around, I awoke to the heart-wrenching sobs of my sisters. It was true then. Mom had really done it. She’d been saying that she would do it for months, and now finally she had. My mother had committed suicide.

I didn’t believe them. It couldn’t be. It didn’t happen! It wasn’t until I saw my brother, that I believed the police’s report. He was sitting on a white lawn chair sobbing. I’d never seen my brother cry before, never. I knew then that it was true. My brother was crying and then I broke down and cried too.

A Troubled Past

My home was definitely not a good place to grow up in. There was fighting, drinking and drugs. My mother smoked marijuana and drank more often than not. I watched movies and saw magazines that no little girl should EVER lay eyes on. I picked up the language of my older siblings. At about age 10, I was cursing and saying things that I wish I’d never said. The truth was, I hated my family. I hated my mother, and unfortunately I told her so on many occasions. I couldn’t stand how she drank and smoked. When she did, she became a different person, a stranger to me.

When I was 9, my mother took me for a walk. Deep inside, I could tell that something was wrong. My father had died of cirrhosis of the liver. I cried and cried. It was awful. Why was everything so wrong? Why? Why? Why? It was a question that I asked too many times to count.

Sadly, suicide became more tempting every day. I thought about it a lot. How I could do it, when I could do it. It’s horrible to think about it, but the thoughts floating around in my head were there and I couldn’t get rid of them. But, I didn’t want to get rid of them. I entertained them. It was horrible. I was only 10 and I was thinking about suicide nearly every day!

However, I was afraid. I was so afraid of dying. At the same time, I wanted to die, yet, I didn’t want to die. I didn’t know where I would go when I did. Yes, there was always the pleading thought to end my life, but I never followed through. In the back of my mind, it would creep upon me every once in a while.

A Turn Toward Christ

I moved in with my Uncle, Aunt and their four children. Their home was the complete opposite of my former home. Like a breath of fresh air after going through a fire. They were Christians.

I was extremely introverted during those first few weeks. I didn’t want to talk about anything that had to do with my past. My Uncle and Aunt would often talk with me and ask me questions, but I would only clam up.

I knew who Christ was and how He died on the cross for my sins, but I wasn’t ready to accept Him as my Lord and Savior. I didn’t understand why God would do this to me. I was so angry, that I didn’t want anything that had to do with Him.

One day, we went to our pastor’s house and we watched a moving film about eternity. It scared me. I knew where I was going. I was going to Hell and it terrified me. Well, shortly after that, I asked my Uncle and Aunt to pray with me. I prayed to receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior!

A Transformed Heart

However, I didn’t realize that bitterness was still on the throne of my life and it was growing within me. I had a boiling cup of anger within me, aimed toward God and my family. How could He let this happen to me? I tried to ignore it for the most part while continuing my Christian walk. Actually, it was more like a struggle. I didn’t want to talk about my past. I was still a closed person.

In 2007, I had the opportunity to go to Journey to the Heart. It’s a journey to discover what’s in your heart and what the genuine heart of God is. It was there that I broke. I had so much bitterness by this time that I couldn’t stand it. I fell to my knees and begged for God’s forgiveness. I was so grieved for holding all this anger toward God; the God that created me and gave me life.

The weight that was lifted off my shoulders was incredible. I now had a desire to follow God and to do His will. It was no longer the fear of Hell that prompted me to follow Him. I had come to realize the depth of my own sin and how much He loved me.

I was free! I was no longer in bondage to the chains of sin that held me. I don’t know what God has planned for my future, but I can now thank Him for the fires he took me through. I now realize if I hadn’t gone through all of it, I would still be on the path to Hell.

Imagine Benessa taking in a child like this one or an adopted child who acted out. This poor girl Julia broke my heart when I read her testimony.

I'm confused. What does your post have to do with Ben and Jessa adopting? It sounds like you are a Fundie trying to save the rest of us with your story of being saved. Am I missing some point you are trying to make? :cray-cray:

[RosyDaisy]

How about they shouldn't be allowed to adopt because neither Jessa nor Ben has a damn JOB nor a profession that would allow them support a child.

How about after this baby is born they never conceive again or adopt. It sickens me to think of innocent children being brought into that environment.

[roddma]

I hope they never adopt. I can't say that enough. Who wants another child raised like that even without the scandal?

I can see the OPs point. Ive never been diagnosed infertile, but dont have children and would likely be considered 'too old' nor pass requirements. I doubt if Jessa, Ben or any Duggar understands infertility and heartache it brings to some people. Most like myself overcome our 'child obsession'. However, it isnt easy for others. I still think there's a strong misunderstanding of stigma against infertility. Infertiles are seen a wanting to 'kidnap' someone's kids while the already super fertile Duggars would be praised in certain circles. When they run their mouth about adoption, it's like a slap to those struggling with fertility and even worse when they do nothing. I doubt if any of them could handle the issues an adopted child older than say 3 may bring. If anything why not help others adopt? Some here may not like my opinion on this but oh well.

[moriah]

Um, the waitlist for adoption has little to do with the people "ahead of you in line." And believe it or not, the demand for adoption is very low. The processing time for all the applications and paperwork is long because they have to be passed from agency to government office to agency etc. It is a bureaucracy problem, not a demand problem. Don't believe me? Then why do 100,000 children in the US still need homes?

"Selfish" is having the means to adopt and the ability to be great parents but not doing it. Ben and Jessa are total noobs who would indoctrinate their children with hate, fear, and low self-esteem. They are doing the world a favor by not indoctrinating another child. They will get enough chances as it is with their own children!

Because most of those 100,000 children aren't newborn infants, or even under 2.

My half-sister and half-brother were adopted from foster care. He's autistic, she has fetal alcohol syndrome. I'm glad I found them after Dad died and the state would release to me the name of the agency handling their adoption. Their adoptive family, who started out doing foster care for special-needs kids (was only the 3rd family my little brother was in before adoption), adopted six other special needs children as well. They're truly awesome people and I can tell they love all their children -- and since neither my sis or bro are able to live independently even though they are both over 18 now, it's obvious they want children to love and raise and commit to being parents for the rest of their lives, not just children to parade on TV. (My brother was four when he came to their home, and they sought out my sister from another family so they could have the brother and sister together when she was 12).

They're what foster parents and adoptive parents should be. But there are far too many people who only want the newborns, or the young ones. They'd never think of being foster parents first (which accelerates adoption for those kids) and even the television single women adopting kids who aren't "perfect" lately have still been shown adopting newborns or children under two (House MD had Lisa Cuddy adopt from a girl who may have drank for most of her pregnancy, and SVU had Olivia Benson adopt a baby that had been the child of a prostitute and obviously has health problems).

It's not really race, or even special needs status, that makes it less likely for a child in foster care to get adopted. It's age. It's true that as a child gets older the foster care system may have identified more problems the child needs addressed, but that possibility is there even if you have your own baby. Still, there are perfectly healthy, bright white teenagers who have no identifiable special needs who are still in foster care -- because they got into the system after age 5.

[moriah]

I think the biological parents of all those unwanted children in the world are the selfish ones.

If I were to adopt, there is NO WAY I could take on a child with special needs or behavior problems. I know my limitations and personality, and such a situation would be a poor fit for me and the child. I would never judge others for not doing what I'm unwilling to do myself.

If BJ want to further add to their family via adoption, it's ok with me. They are not responsible for the unwanted children, or for leaving the healthy young ones to infertile couples.

There's no doubt that SOME of the parents were jackasses. As I said, I have two half-siblings who entered foster care. Their egg donor (I can't even stand to call her their "mother") abused substances during both pregnancies and left my little sister with a crack dealer for collateral when she was 6 months old, then abandoned the family.

DHS gave custody to my grandmother because Dad had been working on the road as a truck driver for several years to support them, but when she was getting worse health-wise and my Dad was diagnosed with HIV, the state had to look at permanency for the kids. It was obvious my grandmother would not be able to take care of them until they turned 18 (she died before they did and wasn't able to walk 3 years after they took custody) and in 1992 the long-term prognosis for a person with HIV was very grim. They didn't want to give up the kids, but the state determined it was in their best interest. And in fact, it was.

I admire their adoptive parents more than I can say, and anyone who adopts not just one kid with special needs, but eight of them, deserves a friggin medal.

But if you truly can't handle having a special-needs child, you ought not to have children at all. Even if you don't do stupid things like abuse substances in pregnancy, they don't come with warranties or replacement policies when they aren't perfect (and not all imperfections are discovered while it's still legal to have an abortion).

[Hisey]

Wow, this started out as one of the best discussions about adoption I've ever seen on this board. It seems to have deteriorated a bit now, though.

As an adoptive mom, it makes me sad to see how fundies handle adoption. The Bayly brothers, for example, refer to their Ethiopian adopted grandson as "their little brown bear". (The adoptive parents actually wrote a book with this title about their kid!). My kids are transracially adopted, and I can tell you that's the last thing I'd ever do, give them a nickname that points out their racial differences.

Other times, fundies use their adopted kids as a sort of badge of honor that you usually don't see in the adoption world. Most adoptive parents I know are so humbly grateful for their child. Fundies seem to be different, they are more like, "Look what I did!" "Look who is learning the Gospel thanks to me!"

And that's where I think Ben and Jessa are coming from. I think they imagine themselves as supersensitive people, who see the suffering in the world that others don't. They want to adopt a child to show how altruistic they are. Perhaps they also see that you can love a child whether or not you give birth to them. In other words, they may have a mix of good and bad intentions.

My husband and I, like BJ, also planned to adopt very early on. Nothing wrong with that. It's good to learn and plan, and that's what we did. Unlike them, we waited many years till we were financially stable and had a home. As it turned out, my husband was sterile anyway and biological children wouldn't have happened without a lot of work. Since adoption was already on the table, we switched gears fairly easily.

I do think it's unrealistic to think an agency will approve you if you are 19 and unemployed. Most agencies and foreign countries have income requirements, not to mention age requirements, even weight requirements in some cases!

I dislike it when people hate fundies so much that they feel they don't "deserve" to adopt (usually this happens when the couple adopts an infant). It really isn't about that. It's about what's best for the kid. What other options does the kid have? Most of the time, the other options are very, very bad. In the case of healthy white infants, however, the other options are often quite good. Adoptive parents send in portfolios and compete for these babies.

There are disabled children in foster care, or malnourished children in third world orphanages, who are far better off at BJ's imperfect home. I have faith that those kids can rise above whatever fundieness BJ inflict upon them. I'd put up with being "singled out" as the adopted kid, if I could have a stable home and regular food till I was 18. On the other hand, if they adopt a healthy newborn that has tons of other applicants, I do think that is selfish. The kid has other options.

[Toothfairy]

Jessa and Ben are still fundie. They're also uneducated and uunemployed. I think it's worse for a child in need who already has trauma to go into a home like Benessa. Foster kids have special and specific needs. Children in third world countries have specific needs that needs time, understanding and compassion. Blanket training or the fundie lifestyle will make life worse for a kid who've already experienced trauma. Until Benessa fix themselves get some therapy, get away from their cult/pimp, and can truly understand what adoption means then no they shouldn't be adopting any kid.

[Toothfairy]

Because most of those 100,000 children aren't newborn infants, or even under 2.

My half-sister and half-brother were adopted from foster care. He's autistic, she has fetal alcohol syndrome. I'm glad I found them after Dad died and the state would release to me the name of the agency handling their adoption. Their adoptive family, who started out doing foster care for special-needs kids (was only the 3rd family my little brother was in before adoption), adopted six other special needs children as well. They're truly awesome people and I can tell they love all their children -- and since neither my sis or bro are able to live independently even though they are both over 18 now, it's obvious they want children to love and raise and commit to being parents for the rest of their lives, not just children to parade on TV. (My brother was four when he came to their home, and they sought out my sister from another family so they could have the brother and sister together when she was 12).

They're what foster parents and adoptive parents should be. But there are far too many people who only want the newborns, or the young ones. They'd never think of being foster parents first (which accelerates adoption for those kids) and even the television single women adopting kids who aren't "perfect" lately have still been shown adopting newborns or children under two (House MD had Lisa Cuddy adopt from a girl who may have drank for most of her pregnancy, and SVU had Olivia Benson adopt a baby that had been the child of a prostitute and obviously has health problems).

It's not really race, or even special needs status, that makes it less likely for a child in foster care to get adopted. It's age. It's true that as a child gets older the foster care system may have identified more problems the child needs addressed, but that possibility is there even if you have your own baby. Still, there are perfectly healthy, bright white teenagers who have no identifiable special needs who are still in foster care -- because they got into the system after age 5.

I agree with everything you posted, because it's true. People mostly upper/middle class people would rather spend 45k to buy a baby than adopt from foster care. I believe everyone is entitled to what they want. And I believe every child no matter what age deserves a home and family. But I do get jealous and angry that there are so many people willing to take babies or younger kids. Even in foster care foster parents put labels on older kids and foster younger kids.It makes me really sad to see so many kids age out. Teens would love to have a home but can't find one. I'm one of the few people in my area that takes in teens and people often ask why. When people think of adoption their mind automatically pictures a baby.

I dont know much about private adoption. Only from what Ive read. But it looks to me it's all about money. It's more of a money making business for these agencies. Not knocking down people who do private adoption, but its really unfair that these agencies take advantage of supply and demand.

[apandaaries]

Wow, this started out as one of the best discussions about adoption I've ever seen on this board. It seems to have deteriorated a bit now, though.

As an adoptive mom, it makes me sad to see how fundies handle adoption. The Bayly brothers, for example, refer to their Ethiopian adopted grandson as "their little brown bear". (The adoptive parents actually wrote a book with this title about their kid!). My kids are transracially adopted, and I can tell you that's the last thing I'd ever do, give them a nickname that points out their racial differences.

Other times, fundies use their adopted kids as a sort of badge of honor that you usually don't see in the adoption world. Most adoptive parents I know are so humbly grateful for their child. Fundies seem to be different, they are more like, "Look what I did!" "Look who is learning the Gospel thanks to me!"

And that's where I think Ben and Jessa are coming from. I think they imagine themselves as supersensitive people, who see the suffering in the world that others don't. They want to adopt a child to show how altruistic they are. Perhaps they also see that you can love a child whether or not you give birth to them. In other words, they may have a mix of good and bad intentions.

My husband and I, like BJ, also planned to adopt very early on. Nothing wrong with that. It's good to learn and plan, and that's what we did. Unlike them, we waited many years till we were financially stable and had a home. As it turned out, my husband was sterile anyway and biological children wouldn't have happened without a lot of work. Since adoption was already on the table, we switched gears fairly easily.

I do think it's unrealistic to think an agency will approve you if you are 19 and unemployed. Most agencies and foreign countries have income requirements, not to mention age requirements, even weight requirements in some cases!

I dislike it when people hate fundies so much that they feel they don't "deserve" to adopt (usually this happens when the couple adopts an infant). It really isn't about that. It's about what's best for the kid. What other options does the kid have? Most of the time, the other options are very, very bad. In the case of healthy white infants, however, the other options are often quite good. Adoptive parents send in portfolios and compete for these babies.

There are disabled children in foster care, or malnourished children in third world orphanages, who are far better off at BJ's imperfect home. I have faith that those kids can rise above whatever fundieness BJ inflict upon them. I'd put up with being "singled out" as the adopted kid, if I could have a stable home and regular food till I was 18. On the other hand, if they adopt a healthy newborn that has tons of other applicants, I do think that is selfish. The kid has other options.

I was with you until the final two paragraphs. I think too many fundie families embrace the Pearls and their "training" techniques for a child to truly be safe in their care. Hana Williams would have been better off in Ethiopia, rather than dying at the hands of her abusive fundie parents. Sometimes kids don't last long enough to gain the benefits of being adopted. Sometimes adopted kids are "homeschooled" and denied education. Sometimes adopted kids are starved and abused. We really lack oversight for foreign adoptions, once the paperwork is done. That can lead to hideous consequences.

Regarding the other options the kid has... Well, sometimes after being adopted in the US, if they don't fit in, they can get "rehomed." Here's the beginning of one 5 part article: http://www.reuters.com/investigates/ado ... icle/part1

Here's a follow up: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/ ... GK20150508

A Facebook page for rehoming adopted children was only disabled last May.

The other issue, for me, with BJ adopting is the likelihood of adopting transracially. IF they were to do so (a very big if), I have a lot of doubts about their ability to raise a child in a way that would not damage the child, especially if the child were of another race. This is not to say that BJ are openly or actively racist. However, there are a lot of issues with subtle types of racism (the example above, the "little brown bear" -- dear heavens. You kind of know they're trying to be nice, but that's terrible. That poor kid). Microaggressions are real and impact people on deep levels. A lot of white people have the privilege of pretending to "overlook" or "ignore" race, but that's not an option for anyone of color.

I don't make these statements lightly. I'm a white mom raising a mixed race daughter. I have heard SO MANY comments that make my skin crawl, and I live on the liberal west coast. Usually, no one is even trying to be mean. In fact, they're often trying to be nice, but somehow mangling the message. My favorite example is, "Your daughter is so beautiful! What is she?" Come on now! She's human, obviously. But these kinds of questions are not uncommon. How would life be for a transracially adopted kid in AR, raised by BJ? I shudder to imagine.

[Hisey]

Jessa and Ben are still fundie. They're also uneducated and uunemployed. I think it's worse for a child in need who already has trauma to go into a home like Benessa. Foster kids have special and specific needs. Children in third world countries have specific needs that needs time, understanding and compassion. Blanket training or the fundie lifestyle will make life worse for a kid who've already experienced trauma. Until Benessa fix themselves get some therapy, get away from their cult/pimp, and can truly understand what adoption means then no they shouldn't be adopting any kid.

Yes, foster kids and kids in third world countries have specific needs. Do you think those needs will be met if they stay in their orphanages? Do you think the foster kids will all find loving homes with a white picket fence?

No, the orphanage kids will languish in their orphanages, without the therapy or medical care they need (or receiving it poorly or way too late). The foster kids will move from home to home --sometimes spending the night in the DHS office when there is no foster home available--till they are 18.

China, India, Ethiopia are not the US. There are few people in third world orphanages to provide these kids with heart surgery, or PT or OT or speech therapy or whatever else they need. There just isn't the money. I have been in a third world orphanage, have you? I've also been involved with working with orphans overseas.

I also know that these kids will get SOME of what they need, in a first world fundie home. For example, I think BJ would be poor parents, but I can't see them denying their adopted child corrective heart surgery.

So many people can't seem to understand the concept of "far from ideal, but better than nothing."

[roddma]

I don't view adoption as an obligation, but a good deed. When you tun an good deed into a moral obligation, it causes more problems. You have people trying to be a 'heathen' kid's savior rather than wanting to give the kid a better life and home. While I praise anyone who can take multiple special needs kids, I dont view those who dont want to or can't as moral failure. We all have limitations. I start questioning motives when I hear of people who take in like over a dozen foster kids in short time. I wonder if these types really love kids or are they just trying to get validation. Foster/adopted kids need adjusting periods. Anyway, the choice to adopt should be heartfelt and with a desire to really give kids help.

[Toothfairy]

Yes, foster kids and kids in third world countries have specific needs. Do you think those needs will be met if they stay in their orphanages? Do you think the foster kids will all find loving homes with a white picket fence?

No, the orphanage kids will languish in their orphanages, without the therapy or medical care they need (or receiving it poorly or way too late). The foster kids will move from home to home --sometimes spending the night in the DHS office when there is no foster home available--till they are 18.

China, India, Ethiopia are not the US. There are few people in third world orphanages to provide these kids with heart surgery, or PT or OT or speech therapy or whatever else they need. There just isn't the money. I have been in a third world orphanage, have you? I've also been involved with working with orphans overseas.

I also know that these kids will get SOME of what they need, in a first world fundie home. For example, I think BJ would be poor parents, but I can't see them denying their adopted child corrective heart surgery.

So many people can't seem to understand the concept of "far from ideal, but better than nothing."

Do you think these needs will be met in a fundie home? Gothard ruins lives. It causes long lasting scars. I've been to third world countries, the poverty there is terrible and heartbreaking. But I would rather a kid in a third world country find a long lasting home without abuse. The same goes for foster kids, they need loving abuse free homes. Meeting the needs of children is more than just physical, it's emotional as well. Gothard even says adopted children carry the sins of their father and is against adoption. I read fundie parents using the pearls method on their adopted kids as well on their own children. Causing more trauma. No Jessa and Ben shouldn't adopt. They need to get themselves together before they go about the adoption route. Their cult is too dangerous.