Am I wrong to find it selfish of Ben & Jessa...?

[fabkiwi06]

It's always wonderful to open your hearts and families up to adopting a child - regardless of where that kid came from or what their story is... it's a better situation than where they were.

However, I do question Benessa's motives - and if they will ever actually go through with such adoption or if it's just a talking point. Time will tell...

[SomewhereSoutheast]

Adoption won't be instead of adding to the world. It'll just be on top of it. Jessa is only 22; if they keep at the unprotected sex, she could have 15 kids of her own and adopt who knows how many more?

I am super, 100% pro adoption. I'm super, 100% on board with the idea that we have failed as a society when we have thousands of children turning 18 having never had a family and suddenly on their own with nothing at all. It's AWFUL. We should all be ashamed that we live in such a wealthy country and can't even care for our own children.

But I think people's concerns are obviously that Ben and Jessa are just children themselves. Having any child is not something to be taken lightly, but adoption especially is such a huge decision. You're not getting a "blank slate" unless you adopt a tiny baby. You need parents that are able to address a child's unique needs. It really isn't good enough to just say "well, at least bad parents are better than no parents at all!" We should be able to do better than that.

Jessa and Ben probably won't be allowed to adopt older children for a while. Sure, there is the two years of marriage minimum they mentioned, but I know when I was looking at fostering/adopting from foster care, I was too young for a lot of the older children even though I was 25. My husband, being 6 years older, was not. They want parents who are a certain number of years older than the children they will be fostering. So, even if they wanted to adopt from the foster care system which is filled with older kids and groups of kids with a significant range of ages, they likely won't be able to for a while even after they meet the marriage length requirement. An infant would be their only option for a while given Ben's age.

[DGayle]

I find it selfLESS. Do you know how many babies there are needing homes?

And who cares if it's a healthy baby they want, there is a suprlus of them too.

Where is his hidden surplus of healthy babies waiting for homes?

[DGayle]

I agree with your post with the exception of women who choose abortion. They are often called selfish along with worse things like murderers.

We, not society. We on this forum don't called women who have abortions selfish.

[DGayle]

I disagree. Adoption isn't for everyone. It take a very special(sorry can't think of another word) person or couple to go through with adoption.

Until agencies stop turning people away for having diabetes or for not being rich enough or for not having big enough houses or for being in an apartment instead of a house or for being gay or single or a dedicated couple who is just as committed without a marriage license, adoption can't remotely be for everyone. Until it's not so expensive that it can take a year of post-tax income to adopt each child, it can't be for everyone. Until there's no risk at all that a birth parent could ever, ever, ever change their mind down the road, and get the child back, it can't be for everyone. Even then, it isn't for everyone.

We tried adopting. The reason we couldn't is listed in there. So we had biological children instead.

[DGayle]

IVF is definitely selfish compared to adoption. But who cares? Everyone is selfish to a degree.

How is it "definitely" selfish compared to adoption? Because of the money? Sometimes insurance covers part or all of it, and sometimes the reason somebody needs it is the reason they don't qualify to adopt. How is IVF "definitely" selfish compared to a woman who adopts because she doesn't want her body to get "wrecked," but still wants the cute little accessory of a child?

[DGayle]

I have worked with many children from foster backgrounds. And I get all the of arguments about Bin and Jessa's age, naivete, lack of "real" job, etc., etc. All legitimate. But compared to what many of these children have been exposed to, are currently exposed to, and how bleak their future prospects are? Adoption by even the Duggar clan would be a major step up. I actually had a great aunt (permanent adoptive mom) of a foster girl lament to me, "I know ____ is a meth baby. She's dumb like a meth baby is. She don't mind me at all. And I just don't care. She's gonna grow up worthless, just like her mother." :pink-shock:

How is being adopted by people who think it's godly and good to whip babies a step up? The Duggars are so anti-gay that there's no way in hell they'd ever support a child who ends up gay instead of sending them to "conversion therapy," which is so abusive and deadly that there are attempts to make it outright illegal for minors. Yeah, a lot of foster kids have a bleak future, but you know what? They get to go to school that's not of the dining room table with the bible as the text book, and if they wanted, they could go to college or a trade school on student aid. It's hard as shit, but the sad reality is they have more options than the Duggar kids, and even a poor education by bouncing around in schools is better than what the Duggars get.

Yes, I know people who were fosters until dumped out of the system at 18. I went to high school with some life-long fosters, and am still good friends with them. They're a lot better off than if they went to a house where they'd get beaten and shamed and sent to harmful therapies and deprived of careers.

[DGayle]

Jessa and Ben probably won't be allowed to adopt older children for a while. Sure, there is the two years of marriage minimum they mentioned, but I know when I was looking at fostering/adopting from foster care, I was too young for a lot of the older children even though I was 25. My husband, being 6 years older, was not. They want parents who are a certain number of years older than the children they will be fostering. So, even if they wanted to adopt from the foster care system which is filled with older kids and groups of kids with a significant range of ages, they likely won't be able to for a while even after they meet the marriage length requirement. An infant would be their only option for a while given Ben's age.

Oh! Also most if not all reputable agencies require the last baby born into a family be at least so old before the family can qualify. A now-ex-friend of mine and her husband were adopting. Funny story. She said that birth control is demeaning to women, and the way to empower us is to ban it and have us check our cervical mucous when we don't want to get pregnant. She said it worked perfectly for her. A couple kids in a few years, not pregnant when she didn't want to be. We had a big argument over how a lack of choices is empowering. Anyway a few weeks later she posted that they were taken off the available adoptive parents list since she just found out she was pregnant, and they were disqualified until the baby was a year old. I posted a simple, "Congrats on the new baby!" Just that. And she blocked me from FB. (We were in-person friends until I moved, so she wasn't someone I just met online.) So. You know. Jessa's not likely to go long enough without a pregnancy.

[Coco]

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I don't think what they are trying to do is selfish. Just naive. I think they mean well and honestly, I respect Jessa and Ben for (IMO) indirectly calling out Jessa's parents on their hypocrisy about adoption. I do not think anything less of them for wanting to adopt. There are a lot of things about them I dislike, but I think it's admirable that they're showing interest in "walking the walk" more than Boob and Jchelle ever did. But they're also young and likely overly optimistic because they're in love and have their first taste of independence. They think they are grownups with big-kid wisdom who have it all figured out.

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i think they think they're the Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt of the fundie world.

oh and i bet they want a black baby from somewhere in Africa for the it factor. :hand:

[2xx1xy1JD]

How many adoptions do not use home studies? Obviously private adoptions, which are either expensive or very situational. Any others? Don't most religious organizations overseas still require a home study?

My husband and I wanted to adopt and were very open to age, race, and most disabilities. We have the income, we have 3 extra bedrooms, we had guardianship of 4 kids for over 3 years due to a family terminal illness so we had some many letters saying how we stepped in and loved kids, everything was going fine until I disclosed a health issue I have (The reason I wanted to adopt over having another child) and it basically made us not eligible for almost every country and many US situations.

I doubt that Jessa or Ben have a hidden genetic condition, but they certainly could not meet the requirements of the home study. They only have a 2 bedroom home and with one child of their own, it would disqualify some options, once they have 2 kids of there own, virtually no home study will pass you for adopting child #3 with two bedrooms. I wonder how they would consider income? Does TLC guarantee some many episodes or seasons?

Are there jurisdictions that don't require a home study for a private adoption? Here, the only exception to the requirement is step-parent adoption (which still requires police and CPS records to be checked).

[2xx1xy1JD]

You do know that not all children put up for adoption are unwanted, right? On the first page of this thread, a woman gave up a daughter when she was 17 and knew she couldn't provide. A lot of babies given up are very wanted, but the parents know they can't provide, and hope for a better life for their babies. Carrying a baby, and then giving the baby up, is UNselfish. We don't call women who abort babies they just plain don't want selfish, do we? No. We praise them for knowing their limits, and not raising a child who isn't wanted. So why bash on parents who have babies they know they can't provide for, and then call them selfish for doing 1 of the most emotionally difficult things parents could do?

I had one case where the mother's decision was absolutely focused on the child, to her detriment.

She had a horrible childhood in the foster care system, and got pregnant shortly after aging out. Even with her extremely limited resources, she did what she could to give her baby a better life. She hitchhiked half way across the country, because her area was so poor at the time. When the homeless shelter for youth found out that she was pregnant, she was transferred to a home for young mothers, given proper food and vitamins, given care and education, and she truly thrived for the first time. She was excited about having the baby. Unfortunately, she had some complications after the birth, child protection stepped in, and her background scared them. She initially fought to get her baby back, then slipped into depression when it didn't happen at the first hearing. As she realized that getting him back would be a long process, she said that she wanted to allow him to be adopted. She had grown up in foster care, and she didn't want that for her child. Meanwhile, the services that had been provided to her as a young mom basically disappeared as a result of her decision. No baby meant no nice bed, no regular nutritious food, no schooling, nobody giving a damn. She was back on the streets, hoping nobody would hurt her in the shelter. The day she signed the papers, I had to buy her breakfast because she hadn't eaten in 24 hours.

Don't you dare call that selfish.

[The baby will be turning 18 soon. I really hope he looks for his mom, or even that he's able to find me, so he'll know just how much she loved and sacrificed.]

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's always wonderful to open your hearts and families up to adopting a child - regardless of where that kid came from or what their story is... it's a better situation than where they were.

However, I do question Benessa's motives - and if they will ever actually go through with such adoption or if it's just a talking point. Time will tell...

It's a better situation IF they were truly available for adoption and didn't have family. In some places, orphanages are used for temporary care situations.

It's a better situation IF the adoptive parents are going into in fully prepared to care for the child and to deal with any bumps in the road. It's not better if the adoption is disrupted and/or if the child is seen as evil/possessed by the devil for demonstrating perfectly normal behavior for their situation and/or if the parents fail to provide basic educational and medical support.

[freejoyannatoo]

This just occurred to me - sorry if there's another thread about it but I don't recall seeing one ...

Jessa and Bin go on and on about adoption. Is THIS their route to the largest family? Whichever Duggar kid has the most offspring, wins - they'll probably end up with the big house, for a start. And just on a psychological level, that's the idea the girls have grown up with. But I can't for a moment see Jessa giving birth to large numbers of children of she can possibly help it.

But, if the Lord has told them to adopt? This is a way for her to be different from Jill, and yet beat her at the "I've got the most kids" game. She can also try to ensure that she brings several older girls into the fold so they can do all the work and she doesn't have to put in the effort of raising them as babies.

I believe technically quiverfull is about having your own babies but the Duggars have hosted "friends" who have several adopted kids (isn't there one very large family with a number of disabled children?). So maybe it's not that big a deal after all?

[nst]

if they are doing all of this just to win the big house not only is that insane but wrong on a level i can't even go down

seriously

[freejoyannatoo]

Not just to win the big house, no - that's not what I said.

They have been brought up (the girls especially) to believe that the bigger your family, the better you are. Add in some intense sibling competitiveness and it wouldn't be surprising if Jessa was thinking outside the box on how to win this race.

The quiverful movement is about birthing your own kids, but the general public probably doesn't know that. For most of us they are just crazy people who can't control their family sizes. Also, adoption would bring something new to the Duggar brand - for the first Duggar who does it at least (it would get old pretty fast).

Jessa has always struck me as a pragamatist, I just wondered if THIS is what's behind the "we want to adopt" line.

[poughkeepsie]

I think Jessa will pop out two or three and realize having children isn't as glamorous as she thought and quit the race against Jill. I can only imagine how frustrated she must have felt to have lil' Jilly pregnant on her wedding day... Jessa wants some of that sweet, sweet spotlight too!

[socalrules]

No, just no. First of all, Jessa and Bin are not cunning. That would imply using logic and reasoning to reach a goal, no matter what the goal may be. Since neither have been taught to use these skills I can't see them being cunning. Further, I do not believe Jessa wants a million kids just so she can win some title.

Second, I don't understand why everyone has jumped on the bandwagon that these two are going to adopt just because they said they want to. They are just spouting a line that sounds like they actual give two shits about anyone in the world other than themselves. Duggar talk is always cheap.

Third, who is going to give two uneducated, unemployed, narrow minded people a baby? Or several babies? No agency is going to. Official routes take years, paperwork and money for just hope of adopting one baby. Can you imagine their interview? "I would like to adopt a baby I have no intention of educating, and if it's a girl, I intend to only raise her to serve her parents, raise her siblings and bow down at the feet of her husband." Even if they go the private adoption route, unless the biological family is super fundy, they won't want their kid, especially a daughter, to be beaten down and raised as a servant. Plus, I am sure that no Duggar would ever treat a non/blood Duggar the same as family. Poor kid would probably be yelled at for the sins of its birth father when they want to go to a real college.

[PegBundyOfFundies]

This just occurred to me - sorry if there's another thread about it but I don't recall seeing one ...

Jessa and Bin go on and on about adoption. Is THIS their route to the largest family? Whichever Duggar kid has the most offspring, wins - they'll probably end up with the big house, for a start. And just on a psychological level, that's the idea the girls have grown up with. But I can't for a moment see Jessa giving birth to large numbers of children of she can possibly help it.

But, if the Lord has told them to adopt? This is a way for her to be different from Jill, and yet beat her at the "I've got the most kids" game. She can also try to ensure that she brings several older girls into the fold so they can do all the work and she doesn't have to put in the effort of raising them as babies.

I believe technically quiverfull is about having your own babies but the Duggars have hosted "friends" who have several adopted kids (isn't there one very large family with a number of disabled children?). So maybe it's not that big a deal after all?

The only feasible method I could think of her getting several older girls to adopt is via foster care; although they are rich I can't see them shelling out ~20K a child to privately adopt domestically. I also don't see them having the wherewithal to go about the international adoption of daughters, which would require alot of hard work in getting the children and probably teaching them English.

That being said, the foster care system would never allow Ben and Jessa to foster and adopt several kids for the purpose of making them j'slaves. There are too many welfare checks and things of that nature to ensure child abuse does not happen; theyre not going to put a child who, to be quite honest, probably was exposed to unsavory things in the birth home in an adoption environment where they could be revictimized.

Not to mention, what will most likely happen as the lost girls age, they will be farmed out to help their older sisters with their growing broods; it works twofold for the Duggars, the older girls receive help and the younger ones are "trained up" the way the older ones are, there are no more babies coming out of Michelle for them to raise. I would be surprised if, in a couple years and a couple more kids for Jill and Jessa, Hannie and Jennifer aren't sent to stay with their older sisters, and Joy sent to DC to help with Josh and Anna's brood, because she's already "trained up" in the ways of Duggar womanhood.

The state is way less apt to intervene on the questionable things biological parents do than adoptive ones.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Am I the only one who immediately thought about making a cunninglingus reference? I'm very immature.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I think the adoption thing is just a publicity grab. Gothard does not approve of adoption. They could, of course, do a private adoption, but I just don't see it really happening.

[SassyPants]

Frigging idiots.

They need to their asses in school or get real jobs and stop looking for the easy way to lots of money.

The world already has one JB...there is no room for more.

Want have a bazillion kids with no education, job or plan, be prepared to eat rice for meals and to have your kids hitting the John in order to eat.

You get the life you earn.

You have nothing to offer, be prepared to have a life filled with nothing.

[eri]

This child-hoarding shit is so ridiculous and makes me wonder why the number of pets you can have is limited, while you can have virtually unlimited number of kids.

[Toomuchtimeonmyhands]

What about "rehoming"? I don't know that much about it, but I don't think there are any checks on who previous adopters can give their children to?

I had never heard about it until the Justin Harris case....

[JBsHairspray]

This child-hoarding shit is so ridiculous and makes me wonder why the number of pets you can have is limited, while you can have virtually unlimited number of kids.

Agree! Daycares are required to have a child to worker ratio based on age group, but you can fill your house to the brim with just one parent at home. Thank goodness for indentured servitude........errr SisterMoms.

[marieantoinette]

I also think the whole adoption thing was just bs. They are just trying to pretend that they care about the problems in the world so they won't get crap for birthing 20 kids instead of bringing kids in from adoption. Michelle and boon did the same thing to save themselves from redicule. They have no intention of adopting. Even if they're serious no one would give them children unless they were the very last option. Them two kids have nothing to prove that they're capable of raising children and with the added issues that adopted kids face from past unfortunate situations, Jessa and Bin aren't equipped to deal with it. They may have the money at the moment to adopt but once they see that their only source of income is the show that could end tomorrow, the adoption agency will put them at the bottom of the list.