SAHD blog- the Boyer sisters

[formergothardite]

37 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

My rule suggestions are these.

A topic

There's only one of me so I would prefer to face only one of you.

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

The debate will last for less than 1 week. (I am suggesting 4 days)

Each day the debaters are responsible for a single post in favor of their point and a rebuttal which quotes and dissects their opponents assertions. No more, no less.

Additional rules could be agreed on if necessary but those are my suggestions, you can take them or leave them.

 Oh dear. You do realize that no one here can make rules except for @Curious, don't you? Perhaps she will adopt you as a pet fundie and allow a special thread just for you because apparently your homeschooling didn't prepare you to discuss things on the internet, but I'm rather doubting it. 

I'll say it again, if you can't answer simple questions like "what are your plans to protect homeschooling children from abuse and neglect" without a list of rules, then you aren't nearly as educated on subjects as you think you are. 

ETA: Feel free to let Curious now that you need special treatment, and then let us know what she says. 

[VooDooChild]

I've been gone all day and come home to this gift from above!  Merry Christmas to me.  

[Destiny]

I'll say it again, if you can't answer simple questions like "what are your plans to protect homeschooling children from abuse and neglect" without a list of rules, then you aren't nearly as educated on subjects as you think you are. 

Pretty much this. Also, as one of the abused home schooled kids we are discussing, I'd love to know what your plan is to help kids like I was.

[Mommit]

Just now, VooDooChild said:

I've been gone all day and come home to this gift from above!  Merry Christmas to me.  

I know, right??! I'm just hoping he doesn't get scared away. I'm genuinely interested in his beliefs, but also in his plans for his and Brigid's future.

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, Gabe said:

I can't spend the time to respond to a dog pile of criticism about the evil deeds of others who are lumped into a category with me.

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

Also I cannot respond for the girls, so stop asking me to explain how having a fashion blog can be modest.

My presence here was to answer questions about myself not explain the misdeeds of people I never knew.

Oh, you are so funny!  Would you also like to pick the single member of FJ you are willing to debate on your terms? 

You are obviously seriously threatened when people question your world view and just can't cope.  So you run and try to hide behind rules of "your" making.  The world does not work like that.

Such a pity.  You started out so well here.

Actually, I have to go back and analyse some of your other responses.  At first glance, you are self-admittedly very young and still finding your way.  You think "complementarian" with regards to marriage is a radical decision and makes you cooler than cool, and you are still buying into an awful lot of Fundie propaganda - that you don't even realize is propaganda.  Sad.

You also have no more understanding of Free Jinger and its members than you claim we have of the average Fundie.  Oh, young man - our combined knowledge and experience would blow your tiny mind.

I doubt we will see much more of you.

Merry Christmas, good luck with the kilt business, and please continue to broaden your horizons.

 

[Lurky]

I am a bit bemused by the idea of someone wanting to set out formal rules and structures to have a conversation - I suppose there would also be rules for allocating points, and so on?  It just sounds so contrived, and adversarial - like it has to be a debate with a winner and a loser, rather than a free-flowing conversation with the possibility to say "yeah, I agree with you on that", or "I know that's an idealistic hope, but I've got to admit, it would probably be a mess in real life" etc.   I grew up debating in school, and I can't stand it, because it's less about discussing beliefs and more about scoring off each other.

Anyway, much as I'd love to believe everyone online is exactly who they say they are, maybe there could be some verification here?

[samurai_sarah]

FJ's rules and TOU apply to every member equally. No special rules for anyone!

 

[nausicaa]

2 hours ago, Kariina said:

I'm on page 160-something of MC and it's spiraling a bit; mainly I think because of the logical fallacies I encountered in the foundational few chapters. But that's me as a critic and an atheist speaking! I do love me some Narnia. My dad read The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe aloud to me when I was really little, and I love the story, even as a Christian allegory.

Agnostic here, and I really enjoyed Mere Christianity. The one thing I couldn't get over is that while Lewis does a good job of arguing that there is a God, he never solidly explains why that must mean it is the Christian God and Jesus must be the Messiah. I think his upbringing and life in an overwhelmingly Christian country (at the time) really shows there. 

 

And I'll give credit where credit is due. Gabe has got some mad sewing and fitting skills that I am quite envious of as I struggle through fitting a dress correctly so I can actually wear it in public for Christmas. And he does seem to have a good sense of humor about himself. Laid back husbands give me a bit of comfort in these patriarchal marriages.

But while I understand the difficulty of being the minority opinion on a discussion board, those rules of debate? Dude...

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Mommit said:

I know, right??! I'm just hoping he doesn't get scared away. I'm genuinely interested in his beliefs, but also in his plans for his and Brigid's future.

Unfortunately it usually only takes a couple of pertinent and pointed questions to scare these young people away.   They just can't cope.  It's not the flurry of questions - it is that they can't answer any of them, even the easy ones.

Some of them do hang in there for a while, but they are the minority.  Gabe just screwed the proverbial pooch by asking for special snowflake privileges.

I do have hopes for Gabe.  He has a good sense of humor and is quite self-deprecating.  He may be moving away from the beliefs he was taught.  I hope he comes back to continue to discuss things with us but I'm not holding my breath.

Or perhaps he just came here because we admired his tailoring skills and he wanted to market his kilts.  We do have precedents for Fundies trying to do that too, see Kristina and her "krochet" and MLMs. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Gabe.... I understand you feel like it's a dogpile. It makes sense but you had to know that coming into this. But what I do ask of you is to actually think about some of the points posters have made.

Personally I hope you don't believe everything you've been told about CPS. If I went by everything my clients told me about why their kids were taken by CPS, I would also think CPS was out to steal kids away from their parents for no reason. 

Since you brought up circumcision.... is there anything in Christianity that recommends circumcising? I'm just curious as I've never heard of it being a Christian thing.

[Gabe]

53 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Gabe.... I understand you feel like it's a dogpile. It makes sense but you had to know that coming into this. But what I do ask of you is to actually think about some of the points posters have made.

I did expect the dog pile. I was pleasantly surprised by the first responses which were reasonable and respectful even when they were teasing.

Once the expected deluge of vitriol began, I laid out some terms under which I felt I could approach things in an organized fashion. I was then shouted down and smeared for it.

Honestly it doesn't hurt my feelings. I totally expected it. Of course now I am just enjoying the pot-stirring.

It's hilarious how quickly one can poke the FJ herd into a frenzy of name calling and mockery.

So who's the tool now? 

Quote

Personally I hope you don't believe everything you've been told about CPS. If I went by everything my clients told me about why their kids were taken by CPS, I would also think CPS was out to steal kids away from their parents for no reason.

CPS interviewed their children and on the word of a 4 year old that he had been spanked, got a court order and removed the children. It took months for them to get them back. I personally know them, they did spank their children. (I was spanked) 

You may disagree with me, but it was never (to my knowledge) abusive in either of our families.

Quote

Since you brought up circumcision.... is there anything in Christianity that recommends circumcising? I'm just curious as I've never heard of it being a Christian thing.

It has been a common medical procedure in the US. I haven't read any Christian books on the subject, so I am afraid I can't really answer this one. I have also never heard any formal teaching on the subject.

[samurai_sarah]

FJ's rules and TOU apply to EVERYONE on FJ! No one gets special treatment. PM me if anything about that is unclear.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

18 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I did expect the dog pile. I was pleasantly surprised by the first responses which were reasonable and respectful even when they were teasing.

Once the expected deluge of vitriol began, I laid out some terms under which I felt I could approach things in an organized fashion. I was then shouted down and smeared for it.

Honestly it doesn't hurt my feelings. I totally expected it. Of course now I am just enjoying the pot-stirring.

It's hilarious how quickly one can poke the FJ herd into a frenzy of name calling and mockery.

So who's the tool now? 

CPS interviewed their children and on the word of a 4 year old that he had been spanked, got a court order and removed the children. It took months for them to get them back. I personally know them, they did spank their children. (I was spanked) 

You may disagree with me, but it was never (to my knowledge) abusive in either of our families.

It has been a common medical procedure in the US. I haven't read any Christian books on the subject, so I am afraid I can't really answer this one. I have also never heard any formal teaching on the subject.

Then the children weren't actually taken away for playing outside during school hours? That is what I was saying. There's always more to the story.

I did not call you names and I will not call you names. I'm happy to discuss many things on FJ respectfully with you but that's because many of these topics do not hit close to home for me. I can talk about them without emotion. What you need to understand is that there are posters on this forum that were harmed by people who believe the exact same stuff you do. And it is hard not to allow some of that emotional pain to creep in while talking about it with someone who doesn't see it or doesn't care to see it. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

32 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I did expect the dog pile. I was pleasantly surprised by the first responses which were reasonable and respectful even when they were teasing.

Once the expected deluge of vitriol began, I laid out some terms under which I felt I could approach things in an organized fashion. I was then shouted down and smeared for it.

Honestly it doesn't hurt my feelings. I totally expected it. Of course now I am just enjoying the pot-stirring.

It's hilarious how quickly one can poke the FJ herd into a frenzy of name calling and mockery.

So who's the tool now? 

CPS interviewed their children and on the word of a 4 year old that he had been spanked, got a court order and removed the children. It took months for them to get them back. I personally know them, they did spank their children. (I was spanked) 

You may disagree with me, but it was never (to my knowledge) abusive in either of our families.

It has been a common medical procedure in the US. I haven't read any Christian books on the subject, so I am afraid I can't really answer this one. I have also never heard any formal teaching on the subject.

Enjoying the pot stirring?  Does that mean your intention from this point forward is straight up trolling for the sake of it?  If so, I'd suggest there are better ways to spend your time.

As flattering as it is to be referred to as a herd, there are thousands of us who have no idea who you are, nor do we care.  I just dropped in because I saw the list of suggested rules and wanted to see if it was as hilarious as the preview promised.  It was.  

Regarding spanking - I managed to raise three kids without it.  If one can't outthink a four year old and needs to resort to violence to assert their authority then I'd assume the nuances of CPS would be hard to understand.

Although given you think you can come into a forum and dictate the terms of discussion seems it's not the only thing you don't get about how life works.

As to who's the tool now?  Still you.  

 

 

 

[DaisyD]

 

22 minutes ago, Gabe said:

*snip*

Once the expected deluge of vitriol began, I laid out some terms under which I felt I could approach things in an organized fashion. I was then shouted down and smeared for it.

I'm not sure what you are calling vitriol. There were a number of very pointed questions regarding homeschooling and some explanations of circumstances that led to those questions. We also rolled our eyes a bit at your perception of CPS.

 This is not a debate forum. Your suggestion that we turn it into one because you said so was met with sarcasm and laughter, not shouting and smearing. If you want to take one question at a time, I suggest you quote that question and answer it. If you don't, don't. Either way we have discussions here, not debates. The free flow of ideas without a strict structure. 

[Grimalkin]

4 hours ago, VooDooChild said:

I've been gone all day and come home to this gift from above!  Merry Christmas to me.  

I just came back from out of town. I always miss the good stuff.

@Gabe I started reading this thread backwards and have no idea what's going on. I can just tell it's awesome though. Please don't leave or flounce. Pretty please with sugar on top.

[Hokey Pokey]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I did expect the dog pile. I was pleasantly surprised by the first responses which were reasonable and respectful even when they were teasing.

Once the expected deluge of vitriol began, I laid out some terms under which I felt I could approach things in an organized fashion. I was then shouted down and smeared for it.

Honestly it doesn't hurt my feelings. I totally expected it. Of course now I am just enjoying the pot-stirring.

It's hilarious how quickly one can poke the FJ herd into a frenzy of name calling and mockery.

So who's the tool now?

and again I say; or you just talk like we're all doing right now.... There's hardly been a deluge of vitriol or a dog pile, in fact there's only been responses from a hand full of members.

At first I, like others, was hopeful, Gabe seemed reasonable and level headed but then, Yikes. Perhaps thinking this is reasonable and civil behavior is the result when one is raised to believe they're naturally superior to 50% of the population.

[Grimalkin]

6 hours ago, Gabe said:

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

My rule suggestions are these.

A topic

There's only one of me so I would prefer to face only one of you.

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

The debate will last for less than 1 week. (I am suggesting 4 days)

Each day the debaters are responsible for a single post in favor of their point and a rebuttal which quotes and dissects their opponents assertions. No more, no less.

Additional rules could be agreed on if necessary but those are my suggestions, you can take them or leave them.

    Your posts all sound like you are practicing a role.  You seem nice one minute, then something like this comes up. 

     Your think before you act bit. What response did you think you would get? 

     I also don't see much vitriol. Just disagreement, and some mockery when you act like a jerk.

   You are talented on your work, but quite arrogant. 

   

[THERetroGamerNY]

7 hours ago, Gabe said:

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

If you don't have time, then why are you even here prompting this topic?

7 hours ago, Gabe said:

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

Basically an empty request. You might as well make no demands for such a restriction. Statistics and news reports can be cherry-picked and used with abandon. And secondly: Statistics aren't directly tied to news reports in the first place. You're basically saying here that you'd reject a raw block of statistics, yet accept same if used within a news report.

11 hours ago, Gabe said:

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate.

This strikes me as you basically setting up your own Fundie Fight Club here at FJ, drawing lots of attention to yourself... and I assume you'll declare yourself the winner of such a debate no matter what occurs.

Frankly, the entire affair strikes me as conceited. You're a newbie member with barely anything of contribution of any note, yet are asking for rather elaborate arrangements here.

Also, debating fundies is basically pointless. The theology is self-sealing. The instant a flaw is found that cannot be directly refuted by the fundie a claim is made of "we just have to have faith"; "that is what God said, so that is what we do"; or other generic answers.

I seriously doubt anybody here wants to engage in such vapid discourse.

[dramallama]

5 hours ago, Gabe said:

CPS interviewed their children and on the word of a 4 year old that he had been spanked, got a court order and removed the children. It took months for them to get them back. 

Speaking of unsubstantiated claims...

[itsme]

2 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Also, debating fundies is basically pointless. The theology is self-sealing. The instant a flaw is found that cannot be directly refuted by the fundie a claim is made of "we just have to have faith"; "that is what God said, so that is what we do"; or other generic answers.

I agree 100 Percent. I think if anybody were to agree to a debate (and I also think its quite conceited to request special rules, and a special thread and whatnot just because you feel the responses would be to uncoordinated or to overwhelming, just have a private conversation with one member, I am sure some would be willing) you would have to agree not to reference the bible or god in your discussion as an argument. Its what really bothers me when having a debate with christian (or any religion for that matter) people, because you cannot argue it. There simply is no argument against "the bible/god/jesus/allah/whatever told me to". 

I am still very new myself here, and have only posted 6-7 times, the first one actually on your wedding, because i found the pictures quite beautiful and tasteful. And maybe your interested to know, I am not here because I "hate" fundies, i am simply fascinated by lifestyles very different from my own. But I think that happiness can be found in all kinds of lifestyles, even the fundie kind

[jozina]

12 hours ago, Gabe said:

"There" is a complete rejection of the Christian faith, the adoption of statist and modern liberal positions, on economic and social issues. The active harassment of people who publicly hold a different opinion. (on Facebook) One of them has a fixation on circumcision and considers it his goal to eradicate the practice through legislation. I know he didn't suffer traumatic injury from that as he has a child (born out of wedlock)

Again, speaking of unsubstantiated claims... I am (quelle horreur) going to engage sans those rules you suggested here. I can't help correcting medical misinformation.  Unless you hold a medical degree (no), have extensive experience in examining men's genitals (doubt it, but who knows, maybe you do Gabe) and have taken both a careful personal and sexual history as well as  examined this individual's penis in both flaccid and erect state (again I don't know but it seems unlikely) then you cannot "know" he did not suffer a traumatic injury from a circumcision.  Point A has zero to do with Point B buddy.  Many men with traumatic injuries both have satisfying sex lives and can also have corrective surgery.  Worry about this man's sex life and relationship to his penis no more.  Then there's that a traumatic injury can be not just physical but also emotional, or even the issues of bodily autonomy but we'll stick to the physical since you mentioned it. 

And born out of wedlock - let me get my scarlet letter to adorn him appropriately.

[Triplet3]

I didn't see  much in the way of vitriol either, just questions and discussion of points of view, some expressed by FJ-ers who have been personally harmed by Christian fundamentalism. You seem to be framing this thread's conversation in the context of your preconceived notions of FJ, rather than by the reality of FJ. It isn't vitriolic to discuss government oversight of homeschooling (for example)...even when we disagree with you. Disagreement does not equal vitriol, normally.

If you feel personally criticised by such discussions, please try to consider the difference between attacking ideas, arguments etc, and attacking the person making them. Most of the time, FJ focuses on the former. And when it's the latter, often it's deserved, such as saying that you come across as a bit arrogant at the moment. Criticism when criticism's due isn't vitriolic, particularly given that we've been prepared to give credit where credit's due, too.

[Triplet3]

1 hour ago, itsme said:

And maybe your interested to know, I am not here because I "hate" fundies, i am simply fascinated by lifestyles very different from my own. But I think that happiness can be found in all kinds of lifestyles, even the fundie kind

Same here. People read and/or post on FJ for a multitude of different reasons. For me personally, it's mainly fascination with different lifestyles - particularly an interest in Christian fundamentalism from a sociological/anthropological angle. This academic/personal interest is mixed in with pity for those whom fundamentalism appears to affect negatively, as well as the standard sort of interest that blog readers take in the blogged-about lives of public bloggers. 

I don't 'hate' fundies, though I do hate the damaging aspects of fundamentalism. I wish many fundie bloggers well, as people...including the Boyer sisters (who incidentally, I had never heard of before I saw this thread). I'm also of the opinion that people are complex, aren't 'black and white' and that good people can believe bad things. Oh, and I agree with @itsme that happiness can be found in many lifestyles, even (for some people) fundamentalism.

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, Gabe said:

Once the expected deluge of vitriol began

Since it seems my post on homeschooling is the first one you downvoted, can you point out the "vitriol"? I was actually surprised at your reaction since you had come off as reasonable and I had just assumed you were unaware of all the abuse in homeschooling. I was asking that instead of imagining all homeschoolers got your happy education, put yourself in the place of a homeschooler whose parents used homeschooling to abuse them and deprive them of even learning to read. If you were that child, how would you feel towards homeschooling and how would you feel towards people who balk at the idea that the government should protect homeschooling students? 

Instead of showing maturity in discussing an issue that has literally killed children, you started deflecting to other subjects and wanting to write up rules. 

One member in this thread shared she was one of those abused homeschoolers, yet you never seemed to even care. You should think about it. I don't expect that you can or will come up with an answer on this thread, but please take time to think about how you couldn't answer simple questions without deflecting or demanding that you get to control the conversation. That should be a red flag to you.