SAHD blog- the Boyer sisters

[Gabe]

6 minutes ago, Kariina said:

Best wishes to all of you. I'm not pressing a response for any conversation you don't want to engage in -- I'm just a former Boyer blog reader and also a vintage fashion / sewing enthusiast who is inspired by the Boyer (and now Everson) creativity, so I have an interest in expressing my philosophical issues with the Boyers' vehicle of modeling Christianity. 

Have a good first holiday season as newlyweds!

Thanks, I am refraining from posting about the girls mainly because they are very careful with what the put on the blog and what they keep private and I don't wish to overstep my place and post things they would rather not have said in a public and frankly hostile place.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, Kariina said:

 

I withdrew from this thread when it got wildly speculative and I thought my "work was done" and I said my piece,  

No, please don't withdraw from threads when they get wildly speculative without stating that that they have gone off the rails and the reason why.  Believe me, it will be appreciated.  I think @formergothardite would have appreciated your support (if my guess as to when it got too speculative is correct.)  And I agree with the rest of your post.

 

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

My budget for historical clothing has taken a big hit and will probably not increase for quite a few years, but a lovely wife is worth the sacrifice.

Yes, you do have a lovely wife.  I apologize for not congratulating you.  Brigie sparkles, surprisingly given her upbringing, and is remarkably creative, talented, and skilled.  

Your job, as her husband, really should be to help this young woman to achieve her full potential.  Give her a break from child-bearing and child-rearing and give her opportunities to let her creativity flow.  She might even out-do you on the creativity stakes if you let her free.

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I have knit my own set of lace jabot and cuffs, but I never wear them because they now seem a little too costumey even for my tastes.

Photos, please.  Knit as opposed to tatted or bobbin lace?

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I am quite aware (having been to the UK) that "nobody" wears that sort of thing now. I am also acquainted with a niche group of people both in Scotland and elsewhere in the world who DO wear that sort of thing, many of them on a daily basis.

Yes, it is a niche group.  I do wish that the phrase "no true Scotsman" hadn't been co-opted as a logical fallacy because, in my experience, some true Scotsmen do wear kilts but don't obsess about them.  They leave the obsessing to people who think they may have some Scottish heritage.

 

2 hours ago, Gabe said:

I had no serious connection to VF. I went to a few film festivals for the networking. I was never a part of the "in" group. I am mainly sad about the downfall. I would never support Doug Phillips returning to any leadership ministry position. I think it should be a "one strike and you're out" in such cases.

OK. That clarifies matters.  So you think that DPIAT struck out.  Thanks.

Now where do you stand on Patriarchal teachings in general?  How would you describe your beliefs?  Do you have any religious leaders or mentors?  Inquiring mind here.

12 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Thanks, I am refraining from posting about the girls mainly because they are very careful with what the put on the blog and what they keep private and I don't wish to overstep my place and post things they would rather not have said in a public and frankly hostile place.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

But you just said they trolled us?  How is that being careful?

[formergothardite]

I do understand that you don't want to speak for the sisters, but since they are reading here, I am actually interested in knowing how they justify blogging tons of pictures of themselves with being modest. One or two pictures to show off an outfit is one thing, but after that you are just showing off yourself, which is pretty much the opposite of modesty. I've seen this done over and over again and yet none of the "modest" bloggers who do it ever want to explain how this is modest. 

It is just such an odd trend that "modest" bloggers spend all this time posing for tons of pictures to show off. When I was growing up a fundamental Christian(you guys would have been considered WAY too worldly for my family to hang out with), someone who took and displayed tons of pictures wearing the exact same outfit would not have even slightly been considered modest. It cannot be about showing off outfits because I know plenty of people who show off their clothes without eight to ten pictures of them twirling, gazing, laughing and staring thoughtfully down. 

So Boyer sisters, are you up to answering? 

[Kariina]

@Palimpsest -- haha okay, fair enough! I'll have to go back and read what was going on again to see what I might have contributed.

I sound very cautious or even unfortunately self-righteous in many posts, I want to reiterate that I absolutely support everyone at FJ expressing their criticisms the way they want within appropriate bounds. I just choose my moments carefully, perhaps far too carefully. I really do enjoy participating here, although I've pretty much kept it to this thread since everything about other famous fundies like the Duggars is all pretty well-said!  

[Gabe]

I would definitely fall into the category of fundie (according to FJ) 

Patriarchy needs to be balanced. I definitely fall into the patriarchy camp but often refrain from using the word because it has been taken to represent the excesses and abuses more than the actual concept itself. I believe that every sphere of government (personal, family, ecclesiastical, civil) must be limited. Thus the role of the father as an authority figure must be limited. I believe that one very definite limit to parental authority is the end of childhood that is Biblically defined as 20 years old. I could write a small volume on the limits of authority and how a family should work ideally, but I am still fairly young so I will leave that until I actually have more experience. Within the context of marriage I am complementarian rather than egalitarian. My political beliefs are very Libertarian. I am socially a conservative, I am anti-war, and would consider myself a classical liberal (in the 18th century sense)

My mentors are not famous. They include friends, people I have been close to, and people I have come to respect. I have never latched on to a popular teacher and tried to follow them. in personality I am an INTJ so I tend to be very independent and take everything with a grain of salt. I prefer not to name popular authors or leaders as representative of my own beliefs, I have disagreements in part with all of them, and would rather not field questions about particulars of their interpretation as that would eat up my time and energy. I am a Christian, I believe in God as revealed in the Bible wait for it..... fundamentally...  

Unlike the general consensus concerning the sotdrt. (I had my own desk ) I was taught from the very beginning to think for myself. My parents never gave us rote answers but instead showed us the reasoning and made us figure things out for ourselves. Our schooling was very flexible and I thrived in the environment of creativity. Some of my siblings had a harder time learning in a free environment but for me it was as ideal as I can imagine. I can still hear my mother saying "think before you speak" "think before you act" I find it hard to understand the vitriol towards homeschooling and the way I was brought up, because I can't imagine a better upbringing than the one I had.

On the other hand I have a few childhood friends who have run hard to your side of the camp, so I can at least contextualize it and try to see what drove them there and why.

[FlamingFundie]

@Gabe I sure hope you decide to stick around here. You could be a very interesting contributor from the other side of things, and you seem rather open-minded for a fundie. Not to mention the fact that you seem like a good sport.

[Kariina]

@Gabe Everything you've said is really interesting. I was also homeschooled and sort of rail against the stereotypes; I was raised by (at the time) conservative/libertarianish atheist parents who also wanted to raise critical, thoughtful kids. I've never heard of the Biblical definition of the end of childhood at age 20 -- I'm not a Christian, but I think that covers a bit more frontal lobe development than the legal 18!

I see how Christianity builds up a certain right versus wrong when it comes to family dynamics, heck, most human dynamics, so if people consciously, educatedly choose to participate in a traditional-looking marriage with a breadwinning husband -- I fall into this category; my husband supports me -- that's a fine and valid choice provided it's a conscious, educated one. I know the secular and Christian definitions of "conscious, educated choice" can be very different; many feminists, including myself, argue that most forms of Christian patriarchy doesn't allow that for women by virtue of not giving them the opportunities for growth they deserve.

I just started Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis today and found what he has to say about choice very fascinating. Overall he -- and you -- and I have a lot to agree on, but we come to different conclusions due to different theology / lack thereof, I think.

[FlamingFundie]

Woops.

[Kariina]

Just now, FlamingFundie said:

Not to mention the fact that you seem like a good sport!

 

Exceedingly. @Gabe, your ability to withstand bald jokes and other mockery is admirably good-natured.

[Gabe]

1 minute ago, Kariina said:

I just started Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis today and found what he has to say about choice very fascinating. Overall he -- and you -- and I have a lot to agree on, but we come to different conclusions due to different theology / lack thereof, I think.

I list C.S. Lewis as one of my favorite Christian authors. It's been a few years since I read Mere Christianity, I should pull it off the shelf and glance through it to refresh my memory.

I gave up on caring about my lack of hair a few years ago when somebody suggested I let a cow lick my head to help it grow back.  (I think it was a joke)

[Arix]

Oh, wow. Ok. How many children would you like to have?

[JermajestyDuggar]

33 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I would definitely fall into the category of fundie (according to FJ) 

Patriarchy needs to be balanced. I definitely fall into the patriarchy camp but often refrain from using the word because it has been taken to represent the excesses and abuses more than the actual concept itself. I believe that every sphere of government (personal, family, ecclesiastical, civil) must be limited. Thus the role of the father as an authority figure must be limited. I believe that one very definite limit to parental authority is the end of childhood that is Biblically defined as 20 years old. I could write a small volume on the limits of authority and how a family should work ideally, but I am still fairly young so I will leave that until I actually have more experience. Within the context of marriage I am complementarian rather than egalitarian. My political beliefs are very Libertarian. I am socially a conservative, I am anti-war, and would consider myself a classical liberal (in the 18th century sense)

My mentors are not famous. They include friends, people I have been close to, and people I have come to respect. I have never latched on to a popular teacher and tried to follow them. in personality I am an INTJ so I tend to be very independent and take everything with a grain of salt. I prefer not to name popular authors or leaders as representative of my own beliefs, I have disagreements in part with all of them, and would rather not field questions about particulars of their interpretation as that would eat up my time and energy. I am a Christian, I believe in God as revealed in the Bible wait for it..... fundamentally...  

Unlike the general consensus concerning the sotdrt. (I had my own desk ) I was taught from the very beginning to think for myself. My parents never gave us rote answers but instead showed us the reasoning and made us figure things out for ourselves. Our schooling was very flexible and I thrived in the environment of creativity. Some of my siblings had a harder time learning in a free environment but for me it was as ideal as I can imagine. I can still hear my mother saying "think before you speak" "think before you act" I find it hard to understand the vitriol towards homeschooling and the way I was brought up, because I can't imagine a better upbringing than the one I had.

On the other hand I have a few childhood friends who have run hard to your side of the camp, so I can at least contextualize it and try to see what drove them there and why.

I admit I'm not a huge fan of the fundie homeschooling model but I'm not against homeschooling in general. Sometimes it really is best for the child. But I also think that when it isn't best for the child, the parent should recognize it and send them to school or find a competent tutor. One of my children would hate homeschooling while the other might be ok with it.

[Gabe]

4 minutes ago, Arix said:

Oh, wow. Ok. How many children would you like to have?

I hardly think that is a matter for public discourse. That is between my wife and me and I would prefer to keep it that way.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I find it hard to understand the vitriol towards homeschooling and the way I was brought up, because I can't imagine a better upbringing than the one I had.

Well imagine that you aren't getting that upbringing. Imagine that you are a girl and you don't get to learn to read because your only job in life is to help around the house, get married, and then have baby after baby. And then imagine that because of the lack of homeschooling laws, there is literally nothing to stop your parents from keeping you ignorant in the name of God. 

Imagine you are a son who has been told you need to get married and have a huge brood of children, yet your parents gave you no education and no skill set because your mother was constantly pregnant or exhausted from caring for small children and your father is an abusive asshole. Again, the lack of homeschooling laws means your parents are free to keep you ignorant and make it almost impossible for your to succeed in life. 

Imagine your parents have kept you isolated to the point that there are no doctor records of you, no birth records, no social security number, no birth certificate, nothing to prove you ever existed. And then imagine that your parents try to keep you trapped as a slave in the name of God. Imagine trying to escape but finding that you can't even prove you were born in America so you can't do anything with your life. 

Imagine being a little girl adopted and kept isolated by homeschooling. Imagine that your adopted parents beat you with rods, locked you in a small closet, starved you and sprayed you with cold water. Imagine dying outside alone of starvation and hypothermia.

All these stories are real and there are mountains of more like them. Can you understand now why people think that maybe homeschooling isn't always the best thing in the world and that there needs to be more oversight? 

I was homeschooled and got a wonderful education. My parents didn't even teach the worship the Old South type of history and weren't too much into teaching that American was founded a Christian nation. I got a pretty well balanced education, except for science which was firmly in the evolution is from Satan camp. I pretty much humiliated myself once trying to explain why evolution couldn't happen and then discovering I had been taught lies, but in general I had a good education. I know, though, that there are so many people out there who didn't get that sort of a homeschool experience. There are so many people whose parents used homeschooling as a way to hide abuse and keep them ignorant. 

I'm not anti-homeschooling, but I hope that if you stop and view this as not everyone getting your nice education you can see where some of the vitriol is coming from. Religious homeschooling isn't always a good thing. 

 

[Gabe]

29 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I'm not anti-homeschooling, but I hope that if you stop and view this as not everyone getting your nice education you can see where some of the vitriol is coming from. Religious homeschooling isn't always a good thing. 

 

I have worked in inner city missions and seen first hand the wreck of lives and the illiteracy of kids who were pumped through the public school system under direct government control and oversight. That was enough for me to be very wary of any attempt to regulate homeschooling by government force. (Not to mention teacher/child sexual abuse, bullying and drugs...)

There are horrible people and horrible situations and homeschooling is not at all immune to them even "Christian" homeschooling. I fully support the prosecution of justice in all situations of proven crime. I also believe that abuse of a position of authority removes the legitimacy of that authority whether it be a tyrannical father or an overreaching government messing around with decent honest folks lives. I know of several families who have been persecuted by CPS and had their children removed for silly things like letting their children play in the yard during school hours. I have personally seen the mess that government intrusion into a decent situation makes.

So stop to consider very carefully if the cost of a policy you promote is worth it. 

I know which side of the argument I come down on.

[Triplet3]

Plenty of FJ-ers homeschool or were homeschooled themselves. 'SOTDRT' is used to refer to homeschooling done wrong - in an ignorant, close-minded or damaging way - rather than homeschooling in general. People here recognise that homeschooling can be a great option, when done in a manner that is beneficial for the children and parents. Unfortunately, in fundamentalist families it is often done in order to isolate children from the outside world, or to prevent children from being taught science honestly, or is done by mothers too under-educated themselves or too exhausted by being pregnant constantly/running around with lots of small children to be able to teach well. 

Gabe, thank you for visiting us, being respectful of our space and being a good sport.

[anachronistic]

People like Gabe confuse me. Because they seem so nice,  but they also do things like refuse to shop at Target because they are afraid of trans people in the bathroom. Bigoted views like that can lead to government laws like North Carolina's 'bathroom bill', and that directly harms me and people I love.  and wanting a smaller government seems okay, but I'm low income and disabled, and if it weren't for big-government health care, I'd be dead.  So behind every conversation or interaction I have with a conservative, I am always, always thinking : they want me dead. I just can't get past that to engage in chit chat about lace and shoes, but I do respect those who can.

[formergothardite]

14 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I have worked in inner city missions and seen first hand the wreck of lives and the illiteracy of kids who were pumped through the public school system under direct government control and oversight. That was enough for me to be very wary of any attempt to regulate homeschooling by government force. (Not to mention teacher/child sexual abuse, bullying and drugs...)

There are horrible people and horrible situations and homeschooling is not at all immune to them even "Christian" homeschooling. I fully support the prosecution of justice in all situations of proven crime. I also believe that abuse of a position of authority removes the legitimacy of that authority whether it be a tyrannical father or an overreaching government messing around with decent honest folks lives. I know of several families who have been persecuted by CPS and had their children removed for silly things like letting their children play in the yard during school hours. I have personally seen the mess that government intrusion into a decent situation makes.

So stop to consider very carefully if the cost of a policy you promote is worth it. 

I know which side of the argument I come down on.

I find it amazing that when confronted with the massive flaws of homeschooling many people deflect to "look at public school" instead of addressing the actual issue. 

So what is your solution for the children who died or received no education because their parents used homeschooling to keep them isolated? In NC I can pull my kids out of public school and never teach them and I could set it up so not a single solitary person would know or even have the right to come tell me that I need to educate my kids. So what is your solution to the fact that homeschooling provides parents with the opportunity to remove kids from society and abuse them? Don't go with "churches" because a lot of times the churches these people attend don't care about the abuse or they don't attend church. Relatives don't always work either since the relatives don't always care or many times have been completely cut out of the children's lives so they don't know. 

Have you considered the high cost of no government oversight? And can you discuss this without deflecting to "look at public school!"? 

I've personally seen the mess of having no government oversight of homeschooling. You don't have to look far to see that there are some HUGE problems with homeschooling. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

27 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I have worked in inner city missions and seen first hand the wreck of lives and the illiteracy of kids who were pumped through the public school system under direct government control and oversight. That was enough for me to be very wary of any attempt to regulate homeschooling by government force. (Not to mention teacher/child sexual abuse, bullying and drugs...)

There are horrible people and horrible situations and homeschooling is not at all immune to them even "Christian" homeschooling. I fully support the prosecution of justice in all situations of proven crime. I also believe that abuse of a position of authority removes the legitimacy of that authority whether it be a tyrannical father or an overreaching government messing around with decent honest folks lives. I know of several families who have been persecuted by CPS and had their children removed for silly things like letting their children play in the yard during school hours. I have personally seen the mess that government intrusion into a decent situation makes.

So stop to consider very carefully if the cost of a policy you promote is worth it. 

I know which side of the argument I come down on.

I don't believe that CPS took children away for playing in the yard during school hours and neither should you. I guarantee there is more to that case. CPS doesn't snatch kids up Willy nilly. 

[Gabe]

Well I have points enough to argue forever on the subject of family freedom from government intrusion. But a thread about the Boyers Sisters is hardly the place to do so. I have a lovely wife who wants my attention and a load of real life and responsibilities to take care of. So I shall bid you all adieu for now. Goodnight, and Merry Christmas!

[closetcagebaby]

Hi, @Gabe! I have to echo everyone who thanks you for sticking around and being willing to answer so many questions. You seem like a laid back guy and I really appreciate you engaging with us on a personal level. Honestly, you remind me a lot of some "fundies" I grew up with! You'd fit right in with the Alaskan irish dancing community, in case you were wondering. 

You say you identify as a libertarian and believe in limited spheres of influence. Do you believe that "biblical" law should be imposed by the government at large? Specifically, when it comes to issues such as gay marriage or other topics where there might be a disparity between belief in a hands-off government and belief in fundamentalist Christianity. I grew up in a very libertarian leaning state and it upset many religious people because the libertarians there truly believed in a lack of government interference, no matter if they agreed with it or not. 

You seem like a nice guy and it's hard to reconcile that with the beliefs that you might hold. I wish only the best for you and your truly beautiful and well dressed bride. I hope that you two, together, will be able to explore your creativity, your beliefs, and your true selves.

 

[ladyaudley]

9 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

I think Gabe is adorable but, then, I find receding hairlines on men to be incredibly sexy. "Grass doesn't grow on a busy street!" my mama always said.

I love that ^^ 

 

Gabe, I do live action role play, so I can't judge looking silly too much  I upload it's the underlying grumble that many Scots have at the American romanticisation of all things Scottish. 

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Gabe said:

Well I have points enough to argue forever on the subject of family freedom from government intrusion.

What about child safety from family violence and/or family trying to keep them ignorant? In all your years of study, did anyone ever teach you to think about that? That is what I was asking and you are deflecting again to another subject. I suspect it is because in spite of all your talk about figuring things out for yourself, you have never been placed in the situation where you need to critically look at homeschooling or how to protect homeschooling children from their parents. If children are a blessing, why are you avoiding discussing how to protect them from abuse in the homeschooling environment? Think about that. Think about how you appear to shrink from discussing problems with homeschooling and instead resort to deflecting to other subjects instead of giving a reply.  Your replies haven't demonstrated critical thinking, they have just shown someone repeating talking points instead of answering questions. 

 

8 hours ago, Gabe said:

But a thread about the Boyers Sisters is hardly the place to do so

Actually you are now very much a part of the Boyer sisters and this is the perfect place to have the conversation, especially since I am guessing at least one of those sisters agrees with you on these subjects. 

 

8 hours ago, Gabe said:

I have a lovely wife who wants my attention and a load of real life and responsibilities to take care of. So I shall bid you all adieu for now. Goodnight, and Merry Christmas!

That is fine, but you need to ask yourself if you are leaving the thread because you are truly busy, or because you have been faced with questions you want to avoid answering. We have seen this time and time again with fundies who show up for discussion and then get suddenly busy and bolt the second they are faced with questions that challenge them. 

And yes, for all your talk of small government, if you aren't willing to answer here, at least think about if you want a government big enough to make medical decisions for me because I'm a woman. I am leaning towards that you do. And also take time to think about who would get hurt with all your grand libertarian ideas. There is a poster in here who would die in your libertarian dream government.  Instead of down voting her, why not take the time to learn more if you truly have been taught to think for yourself. 

And a lot of us have heard stories of those religious families whose kids were taken away for playing outside during school hours. Guess what? They aren't true. Have you been raised on stories that taught you to fear CPS? 

Even if you don't come back I hope you think about all these things and think about the children who are suffering because of the lack of homeschooling laws. 

[Kariina]

18 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Perhaps you can get them to explain how exactly it is modest to continually post pictures of themselves. That is one thing I have never understood. How is it modesty to be all "LOOK AT ME as I gaze into the distance! LOOK AT ME as I twirl! LOOK AT ME as I cast my eyes down!" I get showing off an outfit, but you can do that in one or two pictures. 

There are more quotes than this that get at what bothers many about the Boyer blog; this was just the most recent one. My reading of Mere Christianity is coincidentally timely:

Quote

 

"The real black, diabolical Pride, comes when you look down on others so much that you do not care what they think of you. Of course, it is very right, and often our duty, not to care what people think of us, if we do so for the right reason; namely, because we care so incomparably more what God thinks. But the Proud man has a different reason for not caring. He says 'Why should I care for the applause of that rabble as if their opinion were worth anything? And even if their opinions were of value, am I the sort of man to blush with pleasure at a compliment like some chit of a girl at her first dance? No, I am an integrated, adult personality. All I have done has been to satisfy my own ideals -- or my artistic conscience -- or the traditions of my family -- or, in a word, because I'm That Kind of Chap."

"If anyone would like to acquire humility, I can, I think, tell him the first step. The first step is to realize that one is proud. And a biggish step, too. At least, nothing whatever can be done before it. If you think you are not conceited, it means you are very conceited indeed."

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, pages 126-128 (Harper Collins 2001)

 

The thing that bugs me personally about modesty blogs is exactly this -- the vanity of blog behavior resembles far more this Pride Lewis is describing than it does a form of "ministry" or "inspiring others."

I think oftentimes the vanity, the blocking, the trolling, etc., is justified by the bloggers with the first part that I bolded, that "My only standard is God" sort of attitude, but people on FJ and possibly less "worldly" Christian readers are inclined to see it as the second bolded bit.

I've disagreed with a lot of what Lewis has to say in this book. Mainly I take issue with a handful of leaps of logic he makes, although I know he didn't write it with the intent of being a flawless theological treatise. I think his most flawed chapters are on sexuality and marriage -- and I say that not just as a bisexual atheist, but that those chapters literally feature the worst of the logical gaps. However, I found the above passages pretty punchy when it comes to summarizing what many people find so distasteful about fundie web presences, specifically in this case, modesty blogs.

Obviously feel free to pick at this post or disagree. On the whole, Mere Christianity is so far not terribly convincing; I just found this rather relevant, esp. considering Gabe's mention that he likes C.S. Lewis. All in all I do too. Mere Christianity's status as a product of WWII is particularly interesting in how he frames his essays.

[justwatching]

@Gabe Thanks for taking the time to visit with us.  You've been very gracious, and you're clearly more intelligent/well-schooled than I'll ever be. 

Interestingly, my small group from church is reading Mere Christianity.  It's made for some really good discussions.

I personally loved the charm of your wedding, and adored your wife's dress.  I liked it on it's own, but even more so since it was so obviously "her", and that's what matters, right? If I were planning my wedding now, or even renewing my vows (25 yrs in 2017), I would definitely go with something creative/different.  It's just so much more personalized.

I wish you a wonderful marriage.