SAHD blog- the Boyer sisters

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Who says that fundies aren't amusing? 

@Gabe, maybe you don't know FJ very well, so I think I'll dare to speak for others too, if not for all, in saying that we tend to value the conversation and the actual arguments much more than score keeping. You know the old theory: the journey is more important than the destination, the value of a quest is in the quest itself etc. 

We don't care for who wins, we want to learn from the discussion. We don't limit the number of participants because everyone can contribute something uniquely important.  

We don't set rules on topics because there are profound logical and factual relationships between different matters.

We don't need to set rules on sources because everyone here tends to want to see reliable ones. We don't have an agenda to pursue, we don’t want to cherrypick and be blind to facts. We want to grow in knowledge and understanding, we don’t want to flaunt our truth, we don’t need to possess an unshakeable truth.

Sophists demonstrated centuries ago that given some debate rules you can demonstrate everything and its contrary too without ever learning anything new. We aren't interested in that.

Everyone is completely free to express his/her arguments and convictions at best of his/her abilities here but none is immune to the fallout of it. People will reply and if you can't stand a debate without having to set your own special rules and you resort to whining and complaining instead of argumenting...well maybe you haven't anything meaningful to say or you simply can't defend your positions. 

As for us gangbanging you with our heathens  replies and snarky ways, well I won't lie, if you are going to defend spanking as a legitimate educational method be prepared to be treated as an hostile witness. But none will ban your opinion based on its content, people will just expect that you have actual reasons and facts to back up your reasoning though. They will also expect that you actually read, comprehend and reply to their opinions and facts re spanking being a form of child abuse.  FJ is not for the faint of heart.

[Palimpsest]

Asterix and Obelix!!  That takes me back a few years, @laPapessaGiovanna  

I'm really not seeing any vitriol either.  I think Gabe just panicked when he got a few hard questions he couldn't answer.  

So he's just here to pot stir now?  Sorry, not interested.

 

 

[Grimalkin]

         Whose the tool now?! Still laughing at that. Maybe he is trying to get into character for an audition in a role as Charlie Sheen. That went from nice to crazy in a millisecond. Then acted like he was trying to stir us up on purpose like he manipulated the whole thing. 

         I did a lot of research on homeschooling. I have been very interested in it. We have quite a large HS community in my county. My high schooler right now wants to be homeschooled and it's her job to gather the information and put a plan together. 

     Reading your posts remind me a lot of the Pennington Point Kids and Lydia Coghlin and friends. The arrogance. You don't know what you don't know. And while you are talented at costume making, and sound intelligent, what you don't realize is out there in the world there are lots of intelligent people and many even more intelligent than yourself. Lots of talented people. You were told how special you were and believed it. I mentioned this in another thread. My mom told me those things too. Then I went to school and realized that there were always people smarter than me, and if you get to know them, pretty much everyone has something special about them. 

   You seem to picture yourself and your circle apart from everyone else.

      Why do we have to debate? Why not just Q &A? In the end your not that special, well no more than anyone else here.

[formergothardite]

12 hours ago, Gabe said:

CPS interviewed their children and on the word of a 4 year old that he had been spanked, got a court order and removed the children.

So he started off with a story of children being removed for playing in their yard during school hours and then switches it to this story. If he can't keep the story straight from page to page, then I'm doubting how accurate his understanding of the situation is. 

 

12 hours ago, Gabe said:

but it was never (to my knowledge) abusive

And here is the important part Gabe, to your knowledge. Would your friends actually admit to you that they were abusing their children or would they turn it into a look at the ebil CPS situation instead? CPS doesn't take children away on the word of a four year old, there would have been evidence of abuse. And I'm not surprised they got the children back after months, CPS doesn't WANT to keep kids. They typically return them home as quickly as possible. 

Your statement on circumcision shows you aren't exactly well educated on the subject you choose to harshly judge your friend about. You don't know anything about the state of your friend's penis. Damage because of circumcision doesn't mean a person can't have sex. 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

14 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

So he started off with a story of children being removed for playing in their yard during school hours and then switches it to this story. If he can't keep the story straight from page to page, then I'm doubting how accurate his understanding of the situation is. 

 

And here is the important part Gabe, to your knowledge. Would your friends actually admit to you that they were abusing their children or would they turn it into a look at the ebil CPS situation instead? CPS doesn't take children away on the word of a four year old, there would have been evidence of abuse. And I'm not surprised they got the children back after months, CPS doesn't WANT to keep kids. They typically return them home as quickly as possible. 

Your statement on circumcision shows you aren't exactly well educated on the subject you choose to harshly judge your friend about. You don't know anything about the state of your friend's penis. Damage because of circumcision doesn't mean a person can't have sex. 

 

I'm kind of amused this thread about the Boyer Sisters has now drifted into circumcision. I'm not shy about the topic but it's still kind of a funny contrast. And I feel for Gabe's friend. I feel for any male who had a body part needlessly removed after they were born and now have complications because of it. 

[Flossie]

So Gabe is just stirring the pot?  I use a spoon to stir my pots.  A spoon is a tool.  So Gabe, by his own admission, is a tool.  

But don't worry Gabe, when I make soup, I make a lot of it because we really like it, and I make my soup in a large pot.  To stir that large pot, I use a long handled spoon.  I hope you're stirring a pot of soup, my friend, because I don't think your arrogance can handle being the little spoon I use in my little pot (aka a pan) to stir up flour and butter to make gravy.

Sadly, neither my pots nor my pans have a nice big sporran, so Gabe has won on that front.  You go, you!

Seriously, though, if Gabe can't be granted special snowflake status to run a debate his way, perhaps he'll consent to an AMA?  Could he do that and just choose a question a day to answer?  

Another thought, is this poster the real thing?  Couldn't he post on an established blog something like:  "I'm engaging the evil FJ'ers in a spirited discussion regarding me, my wife, and our religion in general.  Won't you join us?"  Then include a link so all the brethren can follow along.  Gabe wouldn't feel so alone if he had other like minded people to back him up.

[Grimalkin]

On December 2, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Gabe said:

I have worked in inner city missions and seen first hand the wreck of lives and the illiteracy of kids who were pumped through the public school system under direct government control and oversight. That was enough for me to be very wary of any attempt to regulate homeschooling by government force. (Not to mention teacher/child sexual abuse, bullying and drugs...)

There are horrible people and horrible situations and homeschooling is not at all immune to them even "Christian" homeschooling. I fully support the prosecution of justice in all situations of proven crime. I also believe that abuse of a position of authority removes the legitimacy of that authority whether it be a tyrannical father or an overreaching government messing around with decent honest folks lives. I know of several families who have been persecuted by CPS and had their children removed for silly things like letting their children play in the yard during school hours. I have personally seen the mess that government intrusion into a decent situation makes.

So stop to consider very carefully if the cost of a policy you promote is worth it. 

I know which side of the argument I come down on.

    I think you really are trying here. Your first argument is in my opinion irrelevant. 

     I appreciate that you admit there could be potential for abuse in among Christian  homeschoolers. I am glad I reread your comment. For me regulating homeschooling is more about protecting children than taking away your rights.  I want kids to know what their rights are. I want them to know who to turn to if they need help. With the distrust of any government bodies even if someone thought something was not right, what are the chances of them reporting it. They would be ostracized from their community. 

      I flat out don't believe you know all the facts about what happened with that family. They tell you what they want you to know. I also understand the shock and disbelief one feels when someone you like and respect is accused of something. I have been there. I recall rationalizing this person's actions. It took me a minute to shake it off and see things clearly. I personally felt cheated. I like to think I am a good judge of character. Con artists would not be successful if they were not likeable. People are not black and white, all good or all bad. Someone could have many good qualities but still do bad things. 

        I also think it is important to mention that CPS also can provide help and resources to overwhelmed parents on how to handle stress and anger. Some people actually are grateful for intervention because they got help as a result. 

    I don't think you meant it to sound the way it did but your sentence "on the word of a four year old," really hit me in a negative way. The assumption that you cannot believe or trust what they say and disregard for their feelings saddened me. It's horrible to cry out for help and not be believed or understood. 

      Lastly,(for now) we had to undergo a CPS investigation. My five year old broke her arm falling out of bed. We think that is how it happened. I agree it raises red flags. It was stressful and scary, the interviewer was hostile. It came up in the interview with my daughter that she did not like being tickled.They put her first. Her feelings matter, we were compliant. It ended well, and we have had no problems since.

[catlady]

 

On 12/3/2016 at 5:04 PM, anachronistic said:

<snip>

What liberal government policies put people you love in danger, Gabe? I'd really like to know. 

@anachronistic, I love you for this. I've had the same question for many years and I have yet to meet someone who can answer it. 

[charmedforsure]

Woah. I step away from my daily FJ reading for the Thanksgiving holiday and I come back to this delightful flurry of posts? Thank you for the treat, FJers and @Gabe.

As much as I enjoy proof to my pudding, I'm more akin to free and open discussion 'round the interwebs (with a dollop of reasonable discourse and a side of snark), rather than set speshul snowflake rules for debating. We aren't in a high school competition duking it out LD-style hoping to advance past the opening rounds, nor are we politicians battling for some type of eternal glory in representing a constituency. There's an old quote I'd like to use here: "There are no winners, only survivors." No one wins in an internet debate... You either agree or disagree, and can accept the discourse like a mature person or go stomping off in a huff. 

 

 

 

 

[denimchastityskirt]

So Gabe what I like to know is, will you allow your wife 21st century freedoms? Will she be allowed to pursue further education (say go to college) or take up a job outside of the home? Or, will you keep her at home to breed like a nice wholesome little sow. I would also love to know your opinion on female consent - is a wife allowed to say no to her husband in the bedroom or do you believe it's your right to get your leg over anytime you please?

Also, I couldn't help noticing the lack of diversity in those wedding photos, the reenactment events you all attend...you guys don't like the mixing of the races huh? 

[ViolaSebastian]

On 12/3/2016 at 4:14 PM, Gabe said:

You are welcome to have a say in the rules. I am sorry if I implied that you would not. 

Please PM me to discuss it so we don't clutter this thread any further.

I appreciate the apology, but I'd like to point out that you did not imply a single thing. You said: 

Quote

 If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

There's no implication there. You straight up said you would draw up the rules and conditions. There was no "we can agree to a set of formal rules" or "we can decide the guidelines." I was going to let this go, but a friend pointed out to me that this is frequently an accusation that men use to discredit women--that women will take a small hint of something and exaggerate it in our emotional lady-brains. I read what you wrote and replied to what you wrote. There was no implication or hinting, it was a straight up directive in the way that you thought this should go--which is, of course, that you would be the one in charge of the rules.

@Gabe, I think you're an okay guy, but I also think that you're very much a product of your environment. I encourage you to educate yourself on the real harm the patriarchy does to women and girls--and to men, too. Most likely, you will someday be the father to a daughter, and I just can't imagine you wanting to see her talents and intellect discouraged and devalued because of her gender.

[Palimpsest]

 

On 12/4/2016 at 10:49 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I'm kind of amused this thread about the Boyer Sisters has now drifted into circumcision. I'm not shy about the topic but it's still kind of a funny contrast. And I feel for Gabe's friend. I feel for any male who had a body part needlessly removed after they were born and now have complications because of it. 

If memory serves, circumcision was once on the list of Dreaded Topics of Doom. 

23 hours ago, Flossie said:

Another thought, is this poster the real thing?  Couldn't he post on an established blog something like:  "I'm engaging the evil FJ'ers in a spirited discussion regarding me, my wife, and our religion in general.  Won't you join us?"  Then include a link so all the brethren can follow along.  Gabe wouldn't feel so alone if he had other like minded people to back him up.

I think this was the real Gabe simply because of his knowledge of sewing and historically correct Scottish Highland Dress.  I don't know what the Helpmeets think though or whether he asked to be verified.  

Gabe was probably showing off to his new wife and sisters-in-law and bit off a little more than he could chew.  He isn't the first to try it and he was politer than many.

@denimchastityskirt, had you posted earlier Gabe might have had an excuse for calling us vitriolic.  It's not the questions you asked but the phrasing that was a bit rude.  I'm not telling you how to post (doG forbid) but when Fundies come here I usually try to be a bit more pleasant in the hopes they stick around for longer.  That is, until they blot their copy books and mess the carpet.  Just a thought.

On @Gabe and his story of the child removed by CPS because he was "playing in the yard" in school hours and told CPS he was spanked - I call bullshit too.

That story is straight out of HSLDA's scare-mongering campaign.  Gabe *may* personally know a family whose children were temporarily removed, but there is no way a judge would grant a court order to remove children without sufficient evidence that they were at immediate risk of harm.  It just doesn't work that way.  CPS would far rather parents cooperate than remove the children.

Home schooling, and even unschooling, is legal in the US.  Children would not be removed unless there was evidence of serious educational neglect (and usually other types of abuse present)  and the parents refused all plans and recommendations to address that educational neglect.

Similarly corporal punishment (spanking) is still legal in the US. Unfortunately, IMO.  Child abuse is not.  Different states may define physical abuse slightly differently -  but a small child saying that he was spanked would not result in automatic removal from the home.  CPS would have to show evidence of the presence of other kinds of abuse and actual physical harm (bruises and marks) before removal.

So, as others have said, Gabe's story is full of holes.  He has no idea how affected he has been by the Fundie propaganda he has been exposed to over the years.

[JermajestyDuggar]

57 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

I appreciate the apology, but I'd like to point out that you did not imply a single thing. You said: 

There's no implication there. You straight up said you would draw up the rules and conditions. There was no "we can agree to a set of formal rules" or "we can decide the guidelines." I was going to let this go, but a friend pointed out to me that this is frequently an accusation that men use to discredit women--that women will take a small hint of something and exaggerate it in our emotional lady-brains. I read what you wrote and replied to what you wrote. There was no implication or hinting, it was a straight up directive in the way that you thought this should go--which is, of course, that you would be the one in charge of the rules.

@Gabe, I think you're an okay guy, but I also think that you're very much a product of your environment. I encourage you to educate yourself on the real harm the patriarchy does to women and girls--and to men, too. Most likely, you will someday be the father to a daughter, and I just can't imagine you wanting to see her talents and intellect discouraged and devalued because of her gender.

I call that gaslighting. And it infuriates me as I've been gaslighted many times in my life.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

If memory serves, circumcision was once on the list of Dreaded Topics of Doom. 

Pretty sure it is.  I only waded into it because it is clear that despite his claims, @Gabe, does not know the state of his friend's penis. You would think that if you were going to treat someone with such disdain you would at least google a bit and find out that circumcision trauma doesn't mean a guy can't have sex.

I agree that he joined to show off a bit how a manly man like him could take on the wild feminists. But he didn't last long at all before he floundered.  I almost feel a bit sorry for him. 

 

[Kariina]

Y'all rock.

What a classic flounce. I had higher hopes.

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I call that gaslighting. And it infuriates me as I've been gaslighted many times in my life.

^^^^ It's gaslighting, and demonstrably so, given there's a textual record.

Seriously, how does someone not take a pause and reflect on their exact words? We get to type them out here and think on everything we say for as long as we like -- there's no excuse for gaslighting or pretending you didn't mean something you literally could have spent days drafting the right articulation for. It doesn't have to be a wild argument where everyone is blurting whatever comes to mind in emotionally-charged moments.

It's an internet forum. Focused on challenging patriarchal fundamentalist stances. Everyone has the opportunity to participate -- and you can respond or ignore as you choose. @Gabe's expectations are akin to walking into a crowd and demanding only one person is allowed to talk a a time. I don't know why you'd sign up and expect that everyone here is going to limit themselves to questions about lining up the tartan in a waistcoat seam or whatever.

Which I'm interested in, in another part of my life. But if Gabe wanted to throw personal facts out into the open...his wife is one of the Boyers. Do a guest blog entry. Duh. Way more relevant format than expecting the conversation here to stick to cryptic personal factoids and tailoring. I can't help but suspect he came on to be a White Knight for his wife and sisters in law, rather than actually follow FJ's (pretty fair, basic) rules and participate in an equal exchange.

[ladyamylynn]

What, you mean to tell me a 20-something kid from patriarchal home-schooling family who possesses no higher education couldn't hack it here? Why I never. Yawn, I was hoping for something at least tiny bit different, but @Gabe really stuck to the script didn't he. Thus concludes another chapter in the annals of Fundie Friday.

[Mommit]

15 minutes ago, ladyamylynn said:

What, you mean to tell me a 20-something kid from patriarchal home-schooling family who possesses no higher education couldn't hack it here? Why I never. Yawn, I was hoping for something at least tiny bit different, but @Gabe really stuck to the script didn't he. Thus concludes another chapter in the annals of Fundie Friday.

So shocking! I had hoped we'd get a little more info out of him before he ran away, but alas, it wasn't meant to be...

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Pretty sure it is.  I only waded into it because it is clear that despite his claims, @Gabe, does not know the state of his friend's penis. You would think that if you were going to treat someone with such disdain you would at least google a bit and find out that circumcision trauma doesn't mean a guy can't have sex.

I agree that he joined to show off a bit how a manly man like him could take on the wild feminists. But he didn't last long at all before he floundered.  I almost feel a bit sorry for him. 

 

Perhaps we should take circumcision off the Dreaded Topics of Doom list and replace it with duvets!

I do feel sorry for the Gabes of this world.  They aren't necessarily bad people, but they have no idea how little they know.  They are also indoctrinated in the strange notion that brains are located in the penis.

 

[HereticHick]

I hope he was wearing a kilt when he flounced away.

[although if you are still reading here Gabe, I tip my hat to your impressive tailoring skills. even more impressive since some in your social set would sneer at it as woman's work]

[Destiny]

Locking this for a part two. Be right back with a link.

Continue here: