SAHD blog- the Boyer sisters

[Kariina]

5 minutes ago, justwatching said:

Interestingly, my small group from church is reading Mere Christianity.  It's made for some really good discussions.

I'd love to sit in on a church discussion of it. I think I already recognize a lot that many American Christians would take issue with or at least second guess, given American religiosity in the modern day is pretty different than C.S. Lewis' self-describedly humble/layman Anglicism in the 1940s. Personally I'm finding Lewis' analysis of choice some good sense, as well as his description of the role of faith intertwined with reason.

[justwatching]

2 minutes ago, Kariina said:

I'd love to sit in on a church discussion of it. I think I already recognize a lot that many American Christians would take issue with or at least second guess, given American religiosity in the modern day is pretty different than C.S. Lewis' self-describedly humble/layman Anglicism in the 1940s. Personally I'm finding Lewis' analysis of choice some good sense, as well as his description of the role of faith intertwined with reason.

Actually, the denomination I belong to falls much closer to Lewis' definition than the groups discussed on FJ.  As do most denominations.  In my opinion, Fundies are most definitely a small, almost radicalized, portion of Christianity today.  There is no salvation by fear in my world (and I live in the "Jerusalem" of my denomination, so am very familiar with the theology).  We're all about peace, forgiveness & reconciliation, supporting and helping those in need.  Much more emphasis on the teachings of Christ/New Testament. 

What I'm trying to say is, Fundies pretty much give the rest of us a bad name.

I think it's awesome that you're reading the book!  I hope that it will have a positive impact on you, whichever way it leads you.

[Gabe]

I can't spend the time to respond to a dog pile of criticism about the evil deeds of others who are lumped into a category with me.

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

Also I cannot respond for the girls, so stop asking me to explain how having a fashion blog can be modest.

My presence here was to answer questions about myself not explain the misdeeds of people I never knew.

[Kariina]

50 minutes ago, justwatching said:

I think it's awesome that you're reading the book!  I hope that it will have a positive impact on you, whichever way it leads you.

You and your church too! It's never bad for anyone to read about the thoughts and philosophies of other people -- better understanding is what we should all strive for. It makes for better-informed philosophies and more empathetic people.

[Kariina]

1 hour ago, justwatching said:

Actually, the denomination I belong to falls much closer to Lewis' definition than the groups discussed on FJ.  As do most denominations.  In my opinion, Fundies are most definitely a small, almost radicalized, portion of Christianity today.  There is no salvation by fear in my world (and I live in the "Jerusalem" of my denomination, so am very familiar with the theology).  We're all about peace, forgiveness & reconciliation, supporting and helping those in need.  Much more emphasis on the teachings of Christ/New Testament. 

What I'm trying to say is, Fundies pretty much give the rest of us a bad name.

I think it's awesome that you're reading the book!  I hope that it will have a positive impact on you, whichever way it leads you.

And I should have acknowledged that your discussion of your denomination is genuinely interesting and I think the direction it goes is great! Since the Bible isn't my personal guidebook I can't say whether one type of Christian is "more Christian" than another, but my own interpretation is that your church's orientation sounds very Christ-like and positive to me.  Best wishes!

[ViolaSebastian]

55 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I can't spend the time to respond to a dog pile of criticism about the evil deeds of others who are lumped into a category with me.

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

Also I cannot respond for the girls, so stop asking me to explain how having a fashion blog can be modest.

My presence here was to answer questions about myself not explain the misdeeds of people I never knew.

Yeah, when a fundie man comes on here, swinging his penis around and making demands of me with no apparent room for negotiation, I'm out. 

[Kariina]

14 minutes ago, ViolaSebastian said:

Yeah, when a fundie man comes on here, swinging his penis around and making demands of me with no apparent room for negotiation, I'm out. 

Oh I dunno, let pigeons play with their chessboards...

(jk hopefully people know what metaphor I'm referring to)

My reaction -- "Whoomp, there it is!" If anyone wants to touch that, Godspeed.

 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

I can't spend the time to respond to a dog pile of criticism about the evil deeds of others who are lumped into a category with me.

 

Yep, time to take your yeti pelt and other toys, and go home in a huff. 

 

 

 

 

[nickelodeon]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

Also I cannot respond for the girls, so stop asking me to explain how having a fashion blog can be modest.

My presence here was to answer questions about myself not explain the misdeeds of people I never knew.

Not to be ugly, but this is a  thread about the Boyer Sisters band and fashion blog, not you, so you'll have to excuse us for mostly wanting to talk about Boyer-related things.

[Gabe]

I am not at all offended. That is why I was not jumping too deep into criticism of homeschooling or the lack of government intervention. I am happy to take it to another thread if people care about hearing an opposing perspective. 

Go back to discussing what little you know or Boyerland and myself.

[formerhsfundie]

19 hours ago, Gabe said:

I would definitely fall into the category of fundie<

I am an INTJ so I tend to be very independent and take everything with a grain of salt. <

On the other hand I have a few childhood friends who have run hard to your side of the camp, so I can at least contextualize it and try to see what drove them there and why.<

Have you tried asking them personally "what drove them there"?

You seem to like labels, so I'll ask you this... where is There? What DID drive them "there"? And "why"? All great questions.

I'd love to understand your perspective on why you think other people would leave your fundie faith, and why you have chosen to stay. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, I'm also driven to understand these issues.

[ViolaSebastian]

32 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I am not at all offended. That is why I was not jumping too deep into criticism of homeschooling or the lack of government intervention. I am happy to take it to another thread if people care about hearing an opposing perspective. 

Go back to discussing what little you know or Boyerland and myself.

I'd be interesting in debating you, but I demand to be approached as your equal, both as your elder and as someone more educated than you--even though I happen to be a woman. That means having a say in formulating the rules of the debate. By attempting to unilaterally impose the rules of engagement on me, you've shown exactly who you are and what you believe. 

[Gabe]

You are welcome to have a say in the rules. I am sorry if I implied that you would not. 

Please PM me to discuss it so we don't clutter this thread any further.

[Destiny]

You are welcome to have a say in the rules. I am sorry if I implied that you would not. 
Please PM me to discuss it so we don't clutter this thread any further.

Thread clutter is a time honoured FJ tradition. Please feel free to keep on "cluttering". I'm interested in the discussion.

[formergothardite]

3 hours ago, Gabe said:

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

This actually made me laugh. My husband asked what was funny and I told him some young guy came to Free Jinger and said he only would discuss things if he got to make rules. He rolled his eyes and said "Another Ken Alexander. We don't want M& M's delivered to our house." I'm pretty sure only @Curious can "draw up rules and conditions".                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you can't reply to "how are you going to protect abused homeschoolers" without making rules and conditions and, well, I just don't know what to say. It doesn't even seem like you can answer the question "have the people in your community discussed how to protect abused and neglected homeschoolers" without a list of rules or deflecting to something else to avoid answering.  These are pretty straight forward questions. And FJ is always cluttering threads, so don't let that stop you, especially since I'm guessing your wife, a Boyer sister, agrees with you on these things, so this will be enlightening about some of the Boyer beliefs. 

[Gabe]

43 minutes ago, formerhsfundie said:

Have you tried asking them personally "what drove them there"?

You seem to like labels, so I'll ask you this... where is There? What DID drive them "there"? And "why"? All great questions.

I'd love to understand your perspective on why you think other people would leave your fundie faith, and why you have chosen to stay. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, I'm also driven to understand these issues.

"There" is a complete rejection of the Christian faith, the adoption of statist and modern liberal positions, on economic and social issues. The active harassment of people who publicly hold a different opinion. (on Facebook) One of them has a fixation on circumcision and considers it his goal to eradicate the practice through legislation. I know he didn't suffer traumatic injury from that as he has a child (born out of wedlock)

I have not spoken to them directly, though I have heard the story from the parent's point of view. I kind of hate using Internet communication for those kinds of conversations and I haven't seen them in years since our paths diverged.

I actually dislike labels, but I have come to accept them as a necessary evil in communication.

The reasons for leaving are varied and unique to each person. The family of the circumcision warrior was always on the liberal side of fundie so he may have just been taking the next step along a path in that direction.

I stayed because it is what I believe. At the age of 17 I left home (with my parents blessing) to pursue a film career. I worked on both secular and religious sets. (All historical films) Incidentally in my few years of working entry level positions, the only folks to treat me fairly and even give me IMDB credits were the Indy Christian projects.

I have also spent a significant amount of time with far left atheist rev-war reenacting groups. All of this challenged me in unique and different ways but in the end and where I am now (8 years later) I can confidently say that what I believe is a decently informed belief system. I chose to believe what I believe. I even differ from my parents in some things. But we treat each-other with respect and love.

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, Kariina said:

The thing that bugs me personally about modesty blogs is exactly this -- the vanity of blog behavior resembles far more this Pride Lewis is describing than it does a form of "ministry" or "inspiring others."

It does seem to be very much a vanity blog instead of demonstrating modesty. You know that they have to take countless pictures and then pick the best 5-10 to show off. I don't expect Gabe to answer this since his wife is an adult and can answer questions about her blog on her own. I have always wondered how modesty bloggers manage to justify vainly showing themselves off with countless pictures. 

When someone asked to see a dress I bought for a party, I took one picture that showed the dress and how it looked on me. If I had replied with tons of pictures of me posing, everyone on my FB page would have for sure viewed me as vain and self-centered. 

C.S Lewis is one of my favorite authors, but I have never read Mere Christianity. I need to pick that up. 

 

[anachronistic]

When I was in high school, we would do mock debates - I remember specifically putting John Brown on trial and finding him innocent. But I'm an adult, as is everyone here, and if adults cannot have a dialogue where they challenge others beliefs and defend their own with real, substantive evidence, but instead must lay out rules and regulations like a presidential debate, then maybe your SOTDRT wasn't so great as you thought it was, Gabe.

as an example. I believe that trans people should be able to use the bathroom of their choice. This, when made a  policy, protects a very vulnerable group against harassment and assault in public bathrooms. There have not been any instances of trans people committing crimes in public bathrooms, but plenty of instances of cis people doing so. As a cis person, I believe it is my duty to my trans friends and family to speak up for their rights. Some conservatives, such as the Boyer sisters, refuse to patronize businesses which have this non discrimination policy. Because of the reasons I outlined above, I think they are wrong. Moreover, their vote, and your vote, for transphobic politicians puts people I love in actual physical danger. 

What liberal government policies put people you love in danger, Gabe? I'd really like to know. 

[formerhsfundie]

33 minutes ago, Gabe said:

"There" is a complete rejection of the Christian faith, the adoption of statist and modern liberal positions, on economic and social issues. The active harassment of people who publicly hold a different opinion. (on Facebook) One of them has a fixation on circumcision and considers it his goal to eradicate the practice through legislation. I know he didn't suffer traumatic injury from that as he has a child (born out of wedlock)

I have not spoken to them directly, though I have heard the story from the parent's point of view. I kind of hate using Internet communication for those kinds of conversations and I haven't seen them in years since our paths diverged.

I actually dislike labels, but I have come to accept them as a necessary evil in communication.

The reasons for leaving are varied and unique to each person. The family of the circumcision warrior was always on the liberal side of fundie so he may have just been taking the next step along a path in that direction.

I stayed because it is what I believe. At the age of 17 I left home (with my parents blessing) to pursue a film career. I worked on both secular and religious sets. (All historical films) Incidentally in my few years of working entry level positions, the only folks to treat me fairly and even give me IMDB credits were the Indy Christian projects.

I have also spent a significant amount of time with far left atheist rev-war reenacting groups. All of this challenged me in unique and different ways but in the end and where I am now (8 years later) I can confidently say that what I believe is a decently informed belief system.>

I'm glad you believe it, but does that make it true?

 Just saying you may not want to be over confident... as a former homeschooler raised similarly to you, I've learned the hard way that my education had limits that we're obvious to others, but not myself. 

But thank you for answering my question . I've often wondered why my old childhood cult acquaintances never reached out after I left... perhaps, like you, they just took my parents word for whatever happened. Which I'm sure is true You can trust parents always. Especially ones who let you figure things out for yourself by homeschooling you and sheltering you from the world. 

[Kariina]

34 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

It does seem to be very much a vanity blog instead of demonstrating modesty. You know that they have to take countless pictures and then pick the best 5-10 to show off. I don't expect Gabe to answer this since his wife is an adult and can answer questions about her blog on her own. I have always wondered how modesty bloggers manage to justify vainly showing themselves off with countless pictures. 

When someone asked to see a dress I bought for a party, I took one picture that showed the dress and how it looked on me. If I had replied with tons of pictures of me posing, everyone on my FB page would have for sure viewed me as vain and self-centered. 

C.S Lewis is one of my favorite authors, but I have never read Mere Christianity. I need to pick that up. 

 

Yeah, my posts about that aren't really directly for Gabe, more just...put out there since the Boyers read here.

I'm on page 160-something of MC and it's spiraling a bit; mainly I think because of the logical fallacies I encountered in the foundational few chapters. But that's me as a critic and an atheist speaking! I do love me some Narnia. My dad read The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe aloud to me when I was really little, and I love the story, even as a Christian allegory.

And here's expressing my support for everyone willing to keep rationally and openly discussing the tough questions. I have to tap out for now to go volunteer for a certain reproductive health organization, but I'll chime back in when I can

[Hokey Pokey]

4 hours ago, Gabe said:

I would be happy to debate a single member of FJ on a particular topic for a specific amount of time under a formal set of debate rules in a thread dedicated to the debate. If that is something you would like, feel free to message my profile with a formal invitation and I will draw up some rules and conditions under which I will engage you.

I usually lurk and rarely comment on FJ but I'm going to now, because I am able to, to say this.

With all respect, why should you need a formal set of rules and conditions? You have the same rights and abilities as everyone else here. That is, if you see something you agree with, you're free to say "I agree" or nothing. If you see something you disagree with, you're free to say "I disagree" or nothing. If you have something relevant, interesting or informative to say, you're free to say that or not. If you feel you're being overwhelmed with questions you're free to say "I'm going to focus on A for a bit before moving onto B". Likewise if members think you're ducking the hard questions they're free to say that too. But remember in the end when someone's disagreeing with you, they're just doing that, disagreeing , no one's going to come dock your wages every time they do. This is simply (or complicatedly) a place to engage in discussion.

 

[dawbs]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

You are welcome to have a say in the rules. I am sorry if I implied that you would not. 

Please PM me to discuss it so we don't clutter this thread any further.

Free Jinger has a long and storied history of embracing and enjoying 'thread drift'.
Sunshine being the world's greatest disinfectant, I see no reason for things like this to be hidden in PMs.  "Clutter" away.

[Gabe]

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

My rule suggestions are these.

A topic

There's only one of me so I would prefer to face only one of you.

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

The debate will last for less than 1 week. (I am suggesting 4 days)

Each day the debaters are responsible for a single post in favor of their point and a rebuttal which quotes and dissects their opponents assertions. No more, no less.

Additional rules could be agreed on if necessary but those are my suggestions, you can take them or leave them.

[formerhsfundie]

9 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

My rule suggestions are these.

A topic

There's only one of me so I would prefer to face only one of you.

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

The debate will last for less than 1 week. (I am suggesting 4 days)

Each day the debaters are responsible for a single post in favor of their point and a rebuttal which quotes and dissects their opponents assertions. No more, no less.

Additional rules could be agreed on if necessary but those are my suggestions, you can take them or leave them.

God I feel so sorry for Brigid in this moment... lolol. I'm out!

[hoipolloi]

15 minutes ago, Gabe said:

I want rules to limit the topic and scale of the debate. As I said, I don't have the time to answer 5-20 people posting unsubstantiated claims.

My rule suggestions are these.

A topic

There's only one of me so I would prefer to face only one of you.

Statistics and stories must be backed up with references to at least one news report verifying each assertion. 

The debate will last for less than 1 week. (I am suggesting 4 days)

Each day the debaters are responsible for a single post in favor of their point and a rebuttal which quotes and dissects their opponents assertions. No more, no less.

Additional rules could be agreed on if necessary but those are my suggestions, you can take them or leave them.

And, lo, a tool is born.