Idnetity Abuse Maxwells and Arndts, Staddons etc ???

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Reading about the family withholding identity documents [Peningtons?] I was struck that at 23 or so they did not consider their "child" as "mature" enough to handle driving. [can't remember where I read this--maybe Homeschoolers Anonymous?]. It got me thinking about the Maxwells, Arndts and Staddons. Is this the real reason no one flees? It just does not seem statistically possible that all of those adult "children" would just "want" to stay home and be children. I know they've been all-but-brainwashed [i'm not a therapist so I couldn't say for sure] but maybe this is the way they keep control?

Do any of the Maxwell "girls" drive? [Yes, you can get a state non-driver id but pretty much the same documentation is needed]. I assume those earning money have a social security card, but are they never allowed to know the number? This gets creepy. If people pay taxes and take child deductions they must provide the social security number but maybe it is treated as a state secret? Homebirth with no recognized medical personnel present [i.e. make believe "midwives" with no license] could help with this.

This is a whole different level than the Duggars--they let their kids drive, get a state recognized GED and probably have given at least Josh and John business debit cards to use to rent heavy machinery etc.

What do you all think? I'm afraid this sounds exactly like Steve Maxwell.

EDITED: The Pennington story is at Homeschoolers Anonymous.

[FloraDoraDolly]

According to one of the Maxwells' books (I think it was Keeping Your Children's Hearts), Sarah learned to drive when she was nineteen. But she was not allowed to go anywhere by herself because the world is so dangerous and bad things happen to young women when they are out on their own. So she always takes a sibling.

[FundieWatcher]

Yes. Nothing bad can happen to 2 people.

[quiversR4hunting]

According to one of the Maxwells' books (I think it was Keeping Your Children's Hearts), Sarah learned to drive when she was nineteen. But she was not allowed to go anywhere by herself because the world is so dangerous and bad things happen to young women when they are out on their own. So she always takes a sibling.

Isn't Sarah the one in her 30s? oh good god! She still has to take a sibling? :wtf: From reading here I knew everything was restrictive but I didn't know she couldn't go do groceries by herself on Senior discount day because the seniors might be scary.

Yes. Nothing bad can happen to 2 people.

Yup- nothing bad ever happens to 2 people. Ever. :roll:

These people are so.....UUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!

[nelliebelle1197]

The Arndts travel for their business without mom and dad. I doubt the Arndts do anything like that. Same thing with the Staddons and Maxwells.

[Jana814]

According to one of the Maxwells' books (I think it was Keeping Your Children's Hearts), Sarah learned to drive when she was nineteen. But she was not allowed to go anywhere by herself because the world is so dangerous and bad things happen to young women when they are out on their own. So she always takes a sibling.

Did it say how old the son's were when they got their licenses.

[Jezebel]

In the case of the Maxwells (particularly the girls), I think what keeps them trapped in the family cult is that they have been so successfully isolated for so long, and filled with fear of the "outside" world and various people they might encounter in it.

I recall an FJer attending a Maxwell seminar, and Joseph stated that he was proud that he'd never experienced "the filth" that is broader American society and culture. And he said it in a very arrogant, satisfied way. He's never experienced so much that most young Americans (including devout Christians) take for granted as part of childhood, adolescence, and growing into independent young adulthood--but he's absolutely convinced that it's "filth."

That's some powerful programming, there. He's been so deeply indoctrinated, breaking out in even minor ways is probably unthinkable for him. He's followed the exact plan for his life that his parents laid down for him.

If any of the Maxwell kids did choose to leave, I have no doubt they would be completely cut off from their parents and siblings. Steve and Terri would consider them fallen, disobedient, and a bad influence on the others, so thus cut all contact and support.

Considering how completely enmeshed that family is, how none of its members ever have more than a few minutes' solitude in a given day, how imaginatively stunted they are, and how profoundly abnormal it is for any one of them to not have at least one other family member present at all times, I don't think the Maxwell kids need to have their identity papers wittheld to keep them in line. Steve employs his kids, and he strikes me as the sort to keep his nose clean as far as taxes go. He doesn't have James Pennington's anti-government flavor of crazy.

So I have no doubt the Maxwell kids have always had birth certificates and SSNs, and could even get their hands on those documents if they wanted them. But if they take their docs and walk away, that's it--they're totally on their own. Fail to meet Steve's standards, and you lose your entire family. And everything outside the family system, and a few approved friends (who are Steve and Terri's friends first) is "the filth."

The Penningtons engage in far more "worldly" pasttimes--such as going to Disney World, which the Maxwells would never do. They're nowhere near as isolated. So to keep their kids from bailing in favor of other options withholding their legal identities and not allowing them to get drivers' licences until they're proven to be safely dependent and subordinate and unlikely to leave is a tool they willingly use. The kids require their full cooperation in order to get any kind of legal status, and even then, I'm sure Jim and Lisa maintain a deathgrip on any documents or information that results.

I was thinking about something Grace said in her parents' defense. She said she was planning to apply for jobs, and that while her parents might not agree with that choice, they wouldn't try to stop her from doing so. But as I read that, I knew it was bullshit. "Planning to apply"--that means nothing. But even if she did, Grace doesn't have a car of her own to get to a job, and even if she got a job all her parents would have to do is refuse to allow her use of their vehicles to get there. She still might not have a SSN, even though she has a driver's license, and you can bet she doesn't have access to her own birth certificate (if it exists). She's 24 or 25 years old, has no education beyond homeschool, and has only worked for her parents--who is going to hire her?

I can see the Penningtons telling their adult kids, "We don't approve, but if you want to go apply for jobs, we won't stop you." That would be a classic Narcissist trick. There's no danger, after all, of their actually getting--much less being able to keep--a job. They put all the barriers in place from the very beginning, knowing their kids could never get past them without their full cooperation. And they successfully raised those eldest kids to see those barriers as protection, not a prison. No wonder it was such a shock when Alecia defected, given how thoroughly indoctrinated the eldest two are.

[SPHASH]

So I have no doubt the Maxwell kids have always had birth certificates and SSNs, and could even get their hands on those documents if they wanted them. But if they take their docs and walk away, that's it--they're totally on their own. Fail to meet Steve's standards, and you lose your entire family. And everything outside the family system, and a few approved friends (who are Steve and Terri's friends first) is "the filth."

They do have passports cuz they took the dog and pony show to Canada, and you need a SS number and BC for that.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Did it say how old the son's were when they got their licenses.

I don't remember. Probably not. If there had been something in the book about the boys getting to drive at a much younger age than Sarah, it would have stood out in my mind. Sarah was still in her early 20s when that book came out, so the reversal Maxwells wouldn't have been old enough to drive yet.

[treemom]

We know the younger girls were driving earlier than that because we saw pictures of it.

[EmiGirl]

They do have passports cuz they took the dog and pony show to Canada, and you need a SS number and BC for that.

Unless things have changed I think you can go to Mexico and Canada with just a bc and photo id.

[sparkles]

I don't remember. Probably not. If there had been something in the book about the boys getting to drive at a much younger age than Sarah, it would have stood out in my mind. Sarah was still in her early 20s when that book came out, so the reversal Maxwells wouldn't have been old enough to drive yet.

The boys could have gotten their licenses as soon as they were eligible but they CHOSE to wait. And the girls don't HAVE to take a sibling along when they go out, they WANT to. Just like they WANT to always share a small room even though a single room is available. And they're not isolated, they're PROTECTED. Get with the program, people!

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Unless things have changed I think you can go to Mexico and Canada with just a bc and photo id.

They may have obtained them, but can they access them? A passport card is required now for Canada and Mexico, but does Steve keep them in a safe-deposit box?

[JesusPony]

The older Arndt "boys" have had jobs outside the home and have even traveled out of state without Mommy and Daddy Dearest. So, I'm sure they have access to whatever papers they need. The Arndts are using witchcraft, though. Only explanation.

[treemom]

Unless things have changed I think you can go to Mexico and Canada with just a bc and photo id.

They went too far into Canada to qualify for that. And they do in general follow laws.

[treemom]

They may have obtained them, but can they access them? A passport card is required now for Canada and Mexico, but does Steve keep them in a safe-deposit box?

I don't believe you need a card. It's just an option for land crossings. Air travel requires a passport.

[twin2]

The boys could have gotten their licenses as soon as they were eligible but they CHOSE to wait. And the girls don't HAVE to take a sibling along when they go out, they WANT to. Just like they WANT to always share a small room even though a single room is available. And they're not isolated, they're PROTECTED. Get with the program, people!

After Anna's sleepover with the neices last weekend, Sarah, Mary and Anna probably do prayer rounds nightly until they fall asleep.

I can't imagine being a 32 year-old women and not having at least a room of my own....

[lilith]

The Maxwells have passports. There was a long detailed post on their blog once about one of them leaving their passport behind at the Canadian border and having to be hailed by immigration workers (panic ensued) to come back and get it.

[divadivine]

I don't believe you need a card. It's just an option for land crossings. Air travel requires a passport.

I was in Detroit last month & we drove to Windsor for dinner one night. You must have a passport to cross the border- whether you drive from the U.S. to Canada or take the bus (yes, you can take the bus- our students did it) you must have a passport.

Side note- I was questioned more going from the U.S. to Canada & back than I was going to Honduras. It was outrageous. I understand security but I swear the biggest assholes work at the U.S. Canada Border.

[treemom]

I was in Detroit last month & we drove to Windsor for dinner one night. You must have a passport to cross the border- whether you drive from the U.S. to Canada or take the bus (yes, you can take the bus- our students did it) you must have a passport.

Side note- I was questioned more going from the U.S. to Canada & back than I was going to Honduras. It was outrageous. I understand security but I swear the biggest assholes work at the U.S. Canada Border.

I was wrong, but you can actually use a card or enhanced drivers license. I thought land crossings remained the same as seaports. It did not.

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/ ... tsheet.pdf

I have traveled a ton. I used to travel to Canada regularly for my previous job and it was rough. They once put me in a room and questioned me endlessly because it was work related, but I didn't have a work visa. Which our attorney had advised I didn't need for my purposes. (We were based in BC and have a US HQ here in Memphis)

[divadivine]

I was wrong, but you can actually use a card or enhanced drivers license. I thought land crossings remained the same as seaports. It did not.

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/ ... tsheet.pdf

I have traveled a ton. I used to travel to Canada regularly for my previous job and it was rough. They once put me in a room and questioned me endlessly because it was work related, but I didn't have a work visa. Which our attorney had advised I didn't need for my purposes. (We were based in BC and have a US HQ here in Memphis)

It took us forever to get through the crossing into Canada. They asked how much money we had, where we were going to eat, why we weren't staying in Windsor for the night because we are from Indiana (we finally explained we were staying in Detroit... Which led to more questions), why were we eating in Canada... Of course, the person I was traveling with had just returned from Japan a few days before we went into Canada. So they even asked him about that, too.

Then coming back, they wanted to know our license plate number. We didn't know it because the car was a rental. We had to roll down the windows & they looked in the back seat. Then, they went around to look at the license plate... But they were really looking in the back of the SUV. All they needed to say was "We need to look in the back of the car" and we would have been fine. Don't lie about needing our plate number. Thankfully we had the SUV that didn't have the Dora The Explorer or SpongeBob costumes... We wouldn't have been able to explain that one. (We have a partnership with Nickelodeon.)

It was also good that we didn't take our students with us... One is from Canada & is Asian, 4 Asian Americans (one who just gained US citizenship), One Indian American & 4 Caucasians... They are all very close in age. I said I would have made up a story telling them the kids were all ours & I delivered every one of them!!! Lol

[salex]

The older Arndt "boys" have had jobs outside the home and have even traveled out of state without Mommy and Daddy Dearest. So, I'm sure they have access to whatever papers they need. The Arndts are using witchcraft, though. Only explanation.

Once I read Daddy Arndt talking about all of them gathering in the Master Bedroom to speak in tongues for 1-2 hours , and how they keep doing all these long family meetings/worship, interspersed with dad taking one kid at a time out for drives and discussions, I started seeing their family as a very strong cult--the type that would require kidnapping and deprogramming to escape, if that would even work... and since it was usually the parents who kidnapped the cult member-- it isn't going to happen.

The boys often (though not always) seem to travel in twos, at least, and if you read the weird daddy updates, there are a lot of times where he or mom will be meeting the boys at a specific time and place after the boys have gone on their own errands or jobs....which seems at first very fun family get together, but really comes across as very much a short leash-- no alone/down time.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Once I read Daddy Arndt talking about all of them gathering in the Master Bedroom to speak in tongues for 1-2 hours , and how they keep doing all these long family meetings/worship, interspersed with dad taking one kid at a time out for drives and discussions, I started seeing their family as a very strong cult--the type that would require kidnapping and deprogramming to escape, if that would even work... and since it was usually the parents who kidnapped the cult member-- it isn't going to happen.

The boys often (though not always) seem to travel in twos, at least, and if you read the weird daddy updates, there are a lot of times where he or mom will be meeting the boys at a specific time and place after the boys have gone on their own errands or jobs....which seems at first very fun family get together, but really comes across as very much a short leash-- no alone/down time.

I'm sure they at least WERE at sometime in ATI/IBLP. Time alone is not a good thing. It is reluctantly granted for using a toilet and possibly for a timed shower. That's about it. It can allow your mind to stray from holy thoughts.

Did NOT know the speaking in tongues thing! Yikes! Makes me wonder if they put saltpeter in the mashed potatoes! All those grown men in the house......

[salex]

I may have exaggerated

We all continue to pray in tongues (as individuals) for at least 20 or 30 minutes a day. We began this little program on or near Mark’s birthday (July 29).

January 23rd of this year... The day was filled with important conversations, each of them helping to solve a challenge or break new ground in one area or another. Early in the afternoon, at 1:30, about 14 of us (I believe that Cathy and James were the only ones who were absent from the house) gathered in the master bedroom. After a brief discussion, we laid hands upon each other, asking for God’s presence to touch and rejuvenate each recipient. There have been many seasons in our lives, and the latest one calls for an emphasis upon God’s power and His willingness to flow into every crack of one’s being, if requested to do so. We never want to miss out upon the inheritance that Jesus won for us on the cross!

Last January's Dad's bits mentions everyone joining together for prayer (or tv?) in the master bedroom... laying on of hands, praying in the spirit, etc.... They have a big house with a living room/family room, why all these things center in the bedroom is beyond me

They refer off and on to the Life in the Spirit Seminars in the 70s, (charismatic RC)