Ken Alexander: Homosexuality is the worst of sins

[polecat]

I don't understand people who still think homosexuality is a sin. As I said upthread, I love my wife, so I'll take the OMGHELLBURNINGFOREVER, if that is even the case (and I don't think so). There's also a false equivalency that homosexuality is exclusively or mostly about sex. I'll tell you 98% of my "homosexuality" has nothing to do with sex acts. Instead, it's who I notice, who I married, who I hold hands with, live with, split chores with, and hope for kids with. Yes, I prefer different sex acts than browniemomma and some Christians, but that's not the focus. Do you look at a straight couple and immediately think of them having sex? Yet, that's done with same-gender couples.

I saw a cool news story I'll link here for purposes of analogy:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show ... n-t-shirts

BrownieMomma and some other people I know (not singling you out!) need this for your brains. And I want to tell you: "Was dein Gehirn kannst, kannst du auch. Wir helfen dir, dich von Homophobia zu loeschen." (I've changed some language to be applicable here).

Just try to see me as a person and not think about how I have sex and it's SO GROSS and sinful every time you see me post.

I hope that I didn't give that impression with my response.

In fact, I stated that that was essentially what I was *taught,* that homosexuality was a sexual sin not unlike adultery, and it wasn't something I particularly questioned until my late teens, early 20s, once I'd already mentally if not physically left the fundy world. I certainly don't believe that today. I also definitely do not ponder other people's sex lives.

Well, except Lorken's, but that's only because they're constantly bringing it up, dragging us into their perverted virtual bedroom with their 10-minutes and lots-o-lube (and yes, I do believe what passes for sex with those two is a perversion of loving, joyful sex. There's nothing holy about it.)

[FoxyMoxie]

none taken :). i want to preface this by saying i came out pre-Ellen in a non-western culture and have spent most of the ensuing decades outside of the US. my familiarity with queer theory is, therefore, limited, and i'm not always sure if i'm using the right terminology or even if i have all of the concepts straight.(pun intended) i also hadn't given much thought to the idea of gender (beyond being very uncomfortable with rigid gender roles) until very recently. in fact, this discussion has triggered some serious reflection.

i'm biologically female, as is my partner. i'm also gay/lesbian/queer. i'm not trans, and i have never felt that i'm in the wrong body. according to some of the things i've read, that makes me cisgender. other things i've read find a trans-cis binary to as problematic as hetero-homo one. i don't personally don't believe gender is binary, and i don't feel comfortable being put in the same box with women (regardless of sexuality) who conform to what society deems feminine. maybe that makes me genderqueer... i know that as a child, i experienced some abuse because of my inability (and lack of desire) to look and behave like a girl was supposed to. i don't think those issues were related to my sexuality, rather they were about gender expression. i don't know if any of this make sense...i'm still sorting it out in my head, so it may just be a bunch of babble.

i also wanted to mention how cool it is to see people using gender-neutral language and being incredibly open-minded and respectful. (i'm totally fine with the pronouns "she" and "her", btw.) we've faced a lot of ugliness and discrimination these last few years, and it's touching in a way that i could never explain to come here and encounter such kindness and openness.

Thanks for explaining! There's a lot of debate around whether dysphoria is necessary to be trans or genderqueer, and a lot of people say it's not. I definitely don't believe in a gender binary and sorry if it sounded like I was, using same-gender rather than same-sex is a genuine attempt to be more inclusive. I appreciate that trying to work it through in your head can take time! I was always under the impression that genderqueer/non-binary people are under the trans umbrella by the way, hence it sometimes being trans* with a *. Also femininity is not the same as being female - I mean I am super femme but butchness is just as female, it's just a different way of being female.

[formergothardite]

Please read this and tell me how this person, who has also made statements about how she would have rather homeschooled her children than have them in the "ghetto" school they were in and how she did not care if anyone thought she was racist with that statement - is merely stating what she has been taught and not that she feels that the sin of homosexuality is a lesser sin than the sin of adultery cause de gayz obviously can't have children.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, I have seen several comments from this poster that set off little alarms and this one just sealed it.

ITA. She says "I think" and then follows it writing about how homosexuality isn't as destructive of a sin. This followed by her reply to me that she is discussing what she understands and has been taught and what she views the Bible as saying, gives the strong appearance of a person who actually believes the act of gay sex is sinful. She at no point in this thread made it clear that these were views that she did not hold and that she does not care what the Bible says, she does not view homosexual acts as sinful.

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

Always find it so odd that fundies are so obsessed by homosexual "acts". Surely, like any relationship, the true tie arises from love. I suspect most homosexual couples who have been together as long as - say - my parents (46 years) do much they same as any heterosexual couple does in bed i.e. mostly sleep! Does that mean it becomes acceptable because they are not engaging in "immoral acts"? Is the love bit ok? Sorry - in Paris and maybe too much vin! Just confuses me!

[lawlifelgbt]

I agree, SG!

This also makes me wonder, where's the line? Is it okay to look at and like someone of the same sex? Is it okay to flirt? To hold hands? To kiss? To hug (front or side)? To hold yourselves out as partners? To live together?

[feministxtian]

I don't care who anybody sleeps with. My qualifications are "of age, gives consent and is human and breathing". I'm straight...good for me. My daughter is bi...good for her. Her x-girlfriend J got married to S. They're great, fantastic, wonderful people. They willingly babysit my grandson on Saturdays while my daughter is in school. They love on him all day long. They hope to have their own kids some day soon and man, I hope so...they'll make great parents!

I don't care what you do in your bedroom (see qualifications above). I care what you do to your fellow man. That's it. Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin. The one passage in the bible I try like heck to live my life by is in Matthew 25. I don't see the fundies giving that one any credence...

[Firiel]

Always find it so odd that fundies are so obsessed by homosexual "acts". Surely, like any relationship, the true tie arises from love. I suspect most homosexual couples who have been together as long as - say - my parents (46 years) do much they same as any heterosexual couple does in bed i.e. mostly sleep! Does that mean it becomes acceptable because they are not engaging in "immoral acts"? Is the love bit ok? Sorry - in Paris and maybe too much vin! Just confuses me!

They're probably only sinning 2-3 times a month after 20 years. I engage in gluttony more often than that. :shifty:

[RachelB]

Now I'm just one of the lowly women folk and I do have a sinful college education, but that education did come from a Christian university at which Bible class was mandatory every semester (except my last one when I did field work off campus.) I don't claim to be an expert in scripture AT ALL, but some things did stick in my feeble female brain.

So my opinion means nothing, I know; but I always assumed that "the worst sin ever" would be the one the Bible classified as the only unpardonable sin.

Mark 3:22-30 states,

“And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, ‘He has Beelzebub,’ and, ‘By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.’ …‘Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;’ because they said, ‘He has an unclean spirit’†(NKJV, emphasis added / Note: The Pharisees made the same charge in Mat 9:34.).

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,

“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come†(NKJV, emphasis added).

I don't think homosexuality would be considered a sin against the Holy Spirit because it is considered by people like Ken to be a sexual sin. The Bible specifically addresses sexual sin many times and it does not address it in regard to maligning the Holy Spirit.

That was exactly the passage I thought of, ucsmom, largely because of all the time I spent reading John Bunyan's autobiography (Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners). He talks ALL THE TIME about being plagued with a ferocious desire to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

That's the only time in the Greek scriptures I can remember seeing any sin singled out for particular attention. And John Bunyan aside, most people don't seem to find it to be all that compelling, as sins go.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There isn't one single answer, I think; it would take a few changes in how kids are educated to prevent anymore of this.

It wasn't until 2013, on this very board, while explaining to a younger Croat -me, Serb- just what the hell we did, that I'd written anything about it (except I did file a short account at the ICTY in 1996).

I have spent a long time trying to figure it out - I mean, regardless of what some people believe, l do have a conscience - and so did most of the other people who, uh, 'policed' the 'investigation centres.'

It was only after I had returned home, and had been there awhile, that I was watching a news report on a battle I was all too familiar with and heard the perky journalist spin it into a heroic victory with minimal civilian casualties.

In truth, our forces surrounded a small enclave, exchanged fire only briefly before the people risked surrender.

Our forces rounded up and disarmed everyone, separated the men, bussed them to a nearby ravine, and shot them.

(What difference what I say now. I file a change of address with the ICTY whenever I move. I wait. But at this rate I'll be 80 and senile by the time they finally work their way down to me.)

Me: 'The media here is a government institution. If that story aired in that way, it happened because someone told them to say that...my God...what the hell else did they spin?'

I tuned into BBC radio, which was no problem for me because I had been learning English since I started school. Most of my comrades couldn't speak English - couldn't go elsewhere for the news.

Before the wars started, there were news broadcasts complete with terrible - and as it turns out, totally misidentified pictures - claiming Croat partisans had invested a hospital and butchered literally dozens of Serbian infants. A lie.

They "reproduced quotations" of a Croatian politicians saying there would be no war if the Croats didn't want it. Another lie.

But I was 18 years old and joining the .JNA; it turns out I was an excellent marksman, and modified my issued M48 as a sniper rifle - so that's how I was classed.

ASIDE: The Serbian government found an ingenious way not to pay a great many of its veterans the correct pension by claiming many were actually on training exercises instead of in conflict. Awesome, no?

Anyway, I wasn't sure where they'd send me: "Perimeter guard at a concentration camp" honestly never occurred to me.

I was assigned to a checkpoint during third shift - the last of three rotating 12 hour shift...which means my direct superior was Krkan -commander of the most cruel shift at the camp.

(which, in this case, means 'among the cruelest people to pollute the human gene pool).

People who know me occasionally get up the courage to ask what the hell I was thinking.

For one thing, Krkan scared the shit out of me. (Fun fact: He only served 13 years in prison for his crimes.)

There were two Serb women inmates at the camp, and I did not want to be number three.

I was sort of insulated from the worst of it because my post was at the outermost perimeter - which means I only walked in when I absolutely had to.

But some people said they'd rather die than be like me. I told them, hey, if they ever find themselves in my position, they're welcome to shoot themselves.

Fighting armed soldiers sucks, but at least they had guns; I feel far less guilty for the fighting than I do for thst two-month period when I got to find out first hand what it means to be...that.

I was recovering from injuries when I got home, so I listened a lot to the BBC. And then I knew...holy fuck: Our government started this. Our government lied to us.

We weren't defending our families. We were ripping massive holes in the families of other people.

I had, up until 1996, kept in contact with some of the people who served in the camp proper. I told them what I found. And, with but one exception, they were either indifferent - 'Things like that happen in war' - or proud to have saved us all from diversity.

Why do I feel guilty when the others don't? Why the hell didn't I desert?

WHAT THE FUCK HAVE I BECOME?

I won't apologize for what I did. Not ever. I don't seek forgiveness for it.

Because I know some of what happened is so terrible that for me to apologize and ask forgiveness would, if possible, make me even more guilty.

I read the story Corrie Ten Boon wrote about how a former guard just waltzed right up to her, stuck out his hand, and asked her - a woman he didn't even remember - to forgive his cruelty from Nazi camp.

Ten Boon forgave him.

I would have broken his jaw then kicked him in the balls - not because he asked forgiveness, but because he expected it.

I've spent nearly 20 years producing educational material about genocide - the Rwandan genocide, genocide in Sudan. Genocide...everywhere.

The best answer I can give is this:

1) Kids should be taught critical thinking from the cradle.

2) I have a strong suspicion that part of the reason bystander syndrome exists, and why propaganda is so potent is that people who find themselves in situations like these have no prior experience in how to handle; they literally don't know what to do.

If ethics and ethical scenarios became part of a person's early training, they'll have more tools to handle a thing humanely when they finally do encounter a situation that requires moral action.

People are perfectly capable of living down to others' expectation.

I hope it works the other way as well.

Thank you. I'm sure that wasn't easy to write.

I'm realizing more and more just how much Middle East conflict really boils down to propaganda. People aren't being motivated by actual lived experiences and facts, but by what they've been taught and told. I don't think that military solutions are possible - at most, they can just keep some security for a time. To really have peace, though, you have to have the majority of the population wanting it, and being willing to coexist. I know that this gets some attention, but I don't think that leaders have truly made the shift in thinking and realized that this can't be secondary to military strategy.

[docmom]

I'd like to think that if the Jesus portrayed in the bible ever does come back and is asked if homosexuals sin his answer will be "Hell, yes! Everyone sins. But their sins do not loving another person."

[Sola]

Please read this and tell me how this person, who has also made statements about how she would have rather homeschooled her children than have them in the "ghetto" school they were in and how she did not care if anyone thought she was racist with that statement - is merely stating what she has been taught and not that she feels that the sin of homosexuality is a lesser sin than the sin of adultery cause de gayz obviously can't have children.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry, I have seen several comments from this poster that set off little alarms and this one just sealed it.

This ^

Browniemomma, you still think homosexuality is a sin, just not as bad a sin as adultery. Now personally I don't think there is such a thing as sin - just good acts and bad acts, even neutral ones I suppose, but for the sake of this thread I will speak of bad acts being a sin.

Why is being gay and/or engaging in homosexual activity a sin? Because your bible says so? Can you come up with any reason other than that to support this?

My son is gay. He is 19 years old, never hurt a soul in his life, is intelligent, kind, has a wonderful social conscience, yet you would not approve of him falling in love, marrying and having a fulfilling sexual relationship with his male partner.

Love between two consenting adults is not a sin Browniemomma, it is beauty.

[feministxtian]

From Sola

My son is gay. He is 19 years old, never hurt a soul in his life, is intelligent, kind, has a wonderful social conscience, yet you would not approve of him falling in love, marrying and having a fulfilling sexual relationship with his male partner.

Me: I hope your son finds the love and companionship EVERYONE deserves. May he be happy.

[nelliebelle1197]

Someone has not come back to defend her position. She has been posting all over the Duggar threads the last few days. She did not defend her position on "ghetto" children either. Looks like we got ourselves a real live racist and homophobe, kids!

[CorruptionInc.]

From Sola

My son is gay. He is 19 years old, never hurt a soul in his life, is intelligent, kind, has a wonderful social conscience, yet you would not approve of him falling in love, marrying and having a fulfilling sexual relationship with his male partner.

Me: I hope your son finds the love and companionship EVERYONE deserves. May he be happy.

Sola I hope your beautiful boy finds a wonderful partner and lives a great life full of wonder. :)

True love is real beauty. Regardless of who it is with. Who cares what gender?

True love is something that we must hold dear, should we happen to find it. :)