Priest/college administrator slaps student on the tush

[ndmomma]

Okay, so the college where my husband works has had a fair amount of upheaval. Just as things were finally calming down, we were angered to hear that a priest in the administration slapped a senior girl on the butt in the process of telling a story to a group of students in an on-campus hangout where alcohol is served. He has done other inappropriate things like cursing during Mass and drinking with underage students.

I'm a Catholic convert, and I am a sexual abuse survivor (at the hands of a Protestant minister). I have no qualms about reporting this, fighting for his termination, and about supporting this student. I plan to go with her to report this.

My personal history always makes me wonder whether this kind of behavior is impulsive and will therefore happen at odd intervals, or whether this is calculated as an opportunity for him to be inappropriate and pass it off as joking around. I'm truly baffled by this kind of behavior and wonder whether cold calculation or impulsivity is more dangerous. I don't understand how a clergyman with an advanced degree and a lengthy spiritual formation would ever think this is okay.

My husband is taking this to the sexual harassment committee today, having heard about it last night. I'm glad there were witnesses. Victims need to be believed, and clergy need to not be protected from accountability measures and consequences. A local principal was censured for harassing student teachers from the same college this year, but his behavior paled in comparison to what this priest has done. Let's hope this gets the same scrutiny!

[louisa05]

If he was drinking with them when it happened, I'm sure it was impulsive.

Sounds like someone needs to grow up, stop drinking and stop trying to be the cool one with his students. And a wake up call on all of that is in order and it probably means he needs to not hold the position he does for a long time or perhaps ever again.

What pains me is that teachers/instructors need to have appropriate boundaries with students but at the same time, people are telling us that we have to be cool/liked/popular with them and hang out with them and spend our free time with them. I read a blog post recently where a woman ranted about schools, daycares and even colleges being oh so inappropriate by having students use honorifics for faculty and no teacher should ever be "Mr" or "Ms" or (heaven forbid!) "Dr" because EQUALITY. I pointed out that when there are no boundaries between staff and students, you have set up an environment where abuse can happen and the use of titles sets an automatic boundary. I got piled on by people telling me that there should not be boundaries because that is not equal. We can't have it both ways. And in my experience, it has been the people who blur the boundaries by socializing excessively with students who cross them. And every time, they have been praised for caring so much about their students before the offense happens.

[thekate]

If he was drinking with them when it happened, I'm sure it was impulsive.

Or a pre-planned excuse.

[louisa05]

Or a pre-planned excuse.

I think we are too quick to rush to the judgment that every idiot who does something like this has been sitting at home with a spreadsheet and outline making plans. Some people are just idiots. I think we like to presume that it is always intensely premeditated because it makes us have hope that people are not that stupid.

We also seem to want it all to be premeditated because that definitely makes it wrong and if it was the impulsive behavior of someone who was drinking, then maybe it isn't so wrong. Here's the thing: it is wrong. It is the same level of wrong whether it was planned for six months or an impulsive act of buzzed/drunk stupidity.

From the prospective a former high school teacher who hopes to teach college students, soon, it was wrong because a teacher/administrator should never be socializing and drinking with students. Period. Boundaries get blurry and when they are blurry, it is easier to cross them. So he was wrong before he did it simply because he was there. And the fact that he thinks it is okay to do these things should have been addressed before this happened.

But we have a bigger problem around that which is that we have a culture where the teacher who hangs out with the kids is the cool one who "cares" more than the ones who set boundaries. We have a culture where the high school teacher who eats at the students' lunch table instead of with the adults "cares" more than the ones who know that that is a boundary because we are not to be the students' friends. The teacher who goes to every game, every event, and sees kids outside of school constantly "cares" more. The teachers who keep boundaries and have their own lives with their own families don't care enough. But I've been at schools where a teacher crossed the lines. And it was never one of the ones who ate in the faculty lounge and spent the weekends with their own families.

[ndmomma]

My spouse can hang out with students or even drink with them (if over 21), and there is never a hint of impropriety. He is a grown-ass man with kids, and he wouldn't want them to be mistreated. He is fun and goofy with students, but very careful to maintain respect both ways.

[louisa05]

My spouse can hang out with students or even drink with them (if over 21), and there is never a hint of impropriety. He is a grown-ass man with kids, and he wouldn't want them to be mistreated. He is fun and goofy with students, but very careful to maintain respect both ways.

I think that is a very hard line for most to walk, though, and even if he has no intention of impropriety, young students can misinterpret things easily. And I think that most people are better teachers, whether it is preschool or college or anything in between, if their social life is separate from their students.

[ndmomma]

Agreed. My husband only does the social hangout stuff at scheduled events during the week after finals with the seniors who are hanging around waiting for graduation, not with those he will have in class in the future.

[louisa05]

Agreed. My husband only does the social hangout stuff at scheduled events during the week after finals with the seniors who are hanging around waiting for graduation, not with those he will have in class in the future.

Well, that's completely different. The chair of my history department had a dinner at his house for graduating seniors each year as did the band director. More formal event. End of school. End of teacher-student relationship.

From what the OP said, it sounds like this priest has made a habit of hanging out with current students in casual situations. That should have been shut down in the first place.

[thekate]

I think we are too quick to rush to the judgment that every idiot who does something like this has been sitting at home with a spreadsheet and outline making plans. Some people are just idiots. I think we like to presume that it is always intensely premeditated because it makes us have hope that people are not that stupid.

We also seem to want it all to be premeditated because that definitely makes it wrong and if it was the impulsive behavior of someone who was drinking, then maybe it isn't so wrong. Here's the thing: it is wrong. It is the same level of wrong whether it was planned for six months or an impulsive act of buzzed/drunk stupidity.

From the prospective a former high school teacher who hopes to teach college students, soon, it was wrong because a teacher/administrator should never be socializing and drinking with students. Period. Boundaries get blurry and when they are blurry, it is easier to cross them. So he was wrong before he did it simply because he was there. And the fact that he thinks it is okay to do these things should have been addressed before this happened.

But we have a bigger problem around that which is that we have a culture where the teacher who hangs out with the kids is the cool one who "cares" more than the ones who set boundaries. We have a culture where the high school teacher who eats at the students' lunch table instead of with the adults "cares" more than the ones who know that that is a boundary because we are not to be the students' friends. The teacher who goes to every game, every event, and sees kids outside of school constantly "cares" more. The teachers who keep boundaries and have their own lives with their own families don't care enough. But I've been at schools where a teacher crossed the lines. And it was never one of the ones who ate in the faculty lounge and spent the weekends with their own families.

And I think we are too quick to not consider that it was premeditated and/or manipulative, especially since there seems to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior in his case. It seems to me that he's intentionally pushing boundaries of what he can get away with. Pre-planned <> grand master plan of 6 months or more with spreadsheets. Pre-planned meaning 5 seconds before doing it thinking, "hey, I can smack her butt and then blame it on the alcohol." Still stupid, and still pre-planned.

I agree that it was wrong whether it was impulsive or not, as I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that alcohol = doing thing you would never do otherwise. Yes, it removes inhibitions, but it doesn't remove someone's innate morality. This is something he plausibly would have done sober if the conditions were right, say with no witnesses.

No, he shouldn't have been drinking with students, especially underage (not clear from the OP whether he personally was drinking that evening, just that alcohol was present). Hanging out with students, considered alongside other behaviors in this case, points to the issues he seems to have with boundaries. (I also agree that the idea that teachers who "hang out" with kids "care" more is incorrect [i was a teacher who got a bad performance review because I only supervised one after-school club instead of multiple :roll:], but I don't think that all hanging out with students is inherently wrong. I do think there needs to be questioning of motives and never one-on-one to make sure things are on the up-and-up.)

To be clear, I'm not saying all or even most of those who work with young people are predatory but there is a type of person who is drawn to the teaching, clergy, and the like because of the power over young people and the ability to abuse and manipulate them and situations to their advantage and automatically saying "I'm sure it was impulsive" allows them to hide in the shadows even longer.

Either way, he should be removed. Whether it's because he can't control inappropriate impulses or because he's a sexual harasser, I don't care.

[Emkay]

If he was drinking with them when it happened, I'm sure it was impulsive.

Sounds like someone needs to grow up, stop drinking and stop trying to be the cool one with his students. And a wake up call on all of that is in order and it probably means he needs to not hold the position he does for a long time or perhaps ever

What pains me is that teachers/instructors need to have appropriate boundaries with students but at the same time, people are telling us that we have to be cool/liked/popular with them and hang out with them and spend our free time with them. I read a blog post recently where a woman ranted about schools, daycares and even colleges being oh so inappropriate by having students use honorifics for faculty and no teacher should ever be "Mr" or "Ms" or (heaven forbid!) "Dr" because EQUALITY. I pointed out that when there are no boundaries between staff and students, you have set up an environment where abuse can happen and the use of titles sets an automatic boundary. I got piled on by people telling me that there should not be boundaries because that is not equal. We can't have it both ways. And in my experience, it has been the people who blur the boundaries by socializing excessively with students who cross them. And every time, they have been praised for caring so much about their students before the offense happens.

I really wanted to quote just a part of that, but ironically (or not, really), it all fits the person I'm about to tell you about.

We had a professor at my school who started out as 'Dr. (first name).' He taught classes that had several requirements that were held outside traditional class time, including optional trips. After awhile, 'Dr. (FN)' just became 'FN,' and long story short, he's now married to one of my former classmates. (The relationship started 'secretly' before we graduated- while he was married- but the school didn't/'couldn't' do anything about it because there was no 'proof,' though one of our friends caught them one night- they didn't hide it very well!) He's still teaching there, and still seen by some as the 'cool' professor, who lets the underage kids drink on trips and at some other events, but the ones most of us from the department visit when we go back are the ones who had a senior dinner, like someone else mentioned, or that join us (us being a group) after certain events for dinner or a drink- but that's as alumni, not as students. It's a new stage in a relationship with professors- an adult-to-adult/colleague relationship, not a teacher-student relationship.

[louisa05]

And I think we are too quick to not consider that it was premeditated and/or manipulative, especially since there seems to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior in his case. It seems to me that he's intentionally pushing boundaries of what he can get away with. Pre-planned <> grand master plan of 6 months or more with spreadsheets. Pre-planned meaning 5 seconds before doing it thinking, "hey, I can smack her butt and then blame it on the alcohol." Still stupid, and still pre-planned.

I agree that it was wrong whether it was impulsive or not, as I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that alcohol = doing thing you would never do otherwise. Yes, it removes inhibitions, but it doesn't remove someone's innate morality. This is something he plausibly would have done sober if the conditions were right, say with no witnesses.

No, he shouldn't have been drinking with students, especially underage (not clear from the OP whether he personally was drinking that evening, just that alcohol was present). Hanging out with students, considered alongside other behaviors in this case, points to the issues he seems to have with boundaries. (I also agree that the idea that teachers who "hang out" with kids "care" more is incorrect [i was a teacher who got a bad performance review because I only supervised one after-school club instead of multiple :roll:], but I don't think that all hanging out with students is inherently wrong. I do think there needs to be questioning of motives and never one-on-one to make sure things are on the up-and-up.)

To be clear, I'm not saying all or even most of those who work with young people are predatory but there is a type of person who is drawn to the teaching, clergy, and the like because of the power over young people and the ability to abuse and manipulate them and situations to their advantage and automatically saying "I'm sure it was impulsive" allows them to hide in the shadows even longer.

Either way, he should be removed. Whether it's because he can't control inappropriate impulses or because he's a sexual harasser, I don't care.

He is a sexual harasser either way. Not controlling inappropriate impulses to sexual harass someone makes you a sexual harasser. Why would it not? And whether the behavior was planned or done on impulse, the consequences are and should be exactly the same. I think I said that very clearly.

[thekate]

He is a sexual harasser either way. Not controlling inappropriate impulses to sexual harass someone makes you a sexual harasser. Why would it not? And whether the behavior was planned or done on impulse, the consequences are and should be exactly the same. I think I said that very clearly.

I agreed with you that the result is and that the consequences should be the same. Where I disagreed was with your dismissal that it was anything but him being "stupid."

[Blessing]

When I was in college, a female faculty member pulled me into her office and ran her hand over my butt to show me how my skirt was inappropriately tight. (It wasn't). I felt violated and I told a friend of mine. she went off on the woman, who cried and said she was falsely accused. I was called in the office by the dean and president and they told me how wrong it was for me to say that was sexual harassment. I was forced to apologize.

Whether it's from a man or a woman, it's wrong and should never be pushed under the rug.