Girl Taken Out Of Christian School; Told She's Too Boylike

[Jana814]

School is in Jerry Falwell/Liberty University county. Nuff said.

Good point!!

[Miggy]

I expect to be criticised for saying this but please read my whole point before getting angry or upset with me.

I can see the schools point. Sunnie doesn't just have short hair: she has short hair in a style that is gender-neutral or even masculine. Her clothes are the same. She isn't just wearing jeans and shirts but gender-neutral/masculine jeans and shirts. In the ordinary, everyday world at a public school this isn't a problem. Nobody would even notice.

However, Sunnie wasn't attending a public school. She was at a Christian school. I haven't read the schools site but both my husband and I have taught in Christian schools and they usually have a pretty clear theological statement that you have to follow. If the schools statement of beliefs includes roles for males and females and Sunnie wasn't following them they are within their rights to ask her to change or leave. After all, you send your child to a Christian school to get away from the evil masses. This fails if you don't enforce your rules and you let a child behave outside the beliefs of the school. I am curious to know what the other parents think - do they back the school and think Sunnie was a bad influence?

So yes, Sunnie is only 8 and yes, there is nothing wrong with how she looks. The issue though is whether she fits with the narrow role defined for her at her school. It sounds like she will be much happier in a public school.

Just for the record, MrMiggy & I are both Christian but hated working in Christian schools. (Five different schools between us.)

[DGayle]

I expect to be criticised for saying this but please read my whole point before getting angry or upset with me.

I can see the schools point. Sunnie doesn't just have short hair: she has short hair in a style that is gender-neutral or even masculine. Her clothes are the same. She isn't just wearing jeans and shirts but gender-neutral/masculine jeans and shirts. In the ordinary, everyday world at a public school this isn't a problem. Nobody would even notice.

However, Sunnie wasn't attending a public school. She was at a Christian school. I haven't read the schools site but both my husband and I have taught in Christian schools and they usually have a pretty clear theological statement that you have to follow. If the schools statement of beliefs includes roles for males and females and Sunnie wasn't following them they are within their rights to ask her to change or leave. After all, you send your child to a Christian school to get away from the evil masses. This fails if you don't enforce your rules and you let a child behave outside the beliefs of the school. I am curious to know what the other parents think - do they back the school and think Sunnie was a bad influence?

So yes, Sunnie is only 8 and yes, there is nothing wrong with how she looks. The issue though is whether she fits with the narrow role defined for her at her school. It sounds like she will be much happier in a public school.

Just for the record, MrMiggy & I are both Christian but hated working in Christian schools. (Five different schools between us.)

Yeah, the school technically has the right, but you have to remember that long hair isn't in the rule book. So she's being punished for a rule that doesn't exist. Since the school agreed to educate her for the year, they should have to reimburse the fees paid.

Also being a private school doesn't mean we can't criticize the school for its sexism. The kids who go to that school are learning that behavior, and that affects the rest of us when those kids become voters.

[Alcyone]

I think I understand your point, Miggy, but that letter the school sent to notify the guardians of Sunnie's "infractions" was simply horrible. This is one of my main problems with Christian schools/churches/institutions. They may feel that they must follow the letter of the law but why must they be so cruel when doing so? I especially hate the part where they say they love and care about Sunnie because they obviously do NOT.

[louisa05]

I expect to be criticised for saying this but please read my whole point before getting angry or upset with me.

I can see the schools point. Sunnie doesn't just have short hair: she has short hair in a style that is gender-neutral or even masculine. Her clothes are the same. She isn't just wearing jeans and shirts but gender-neutral/masculine jeans and shirts. In the ordinary, everyday world at a public school this isn't a problem. Nobody would even notice.

However, Sunnie wasn't attending a public school. She was at a Christian school. I haven't read the schools site but both my husband and I have taught in Christian schools and they usually have a pretty clear theological statement that you have to follow. If the schools statement of beliefs includes roles for males and females and Sunnie wasn't following them they are within their rights to ask her to change or leave. After all, you send your child to a Christian school to get away from the evil masses. This fails if you don't enforce your rules and you let a child behave outside the beliefs of the school. I am curious to know what the other parents think - do they back the school and think Sunnie was a bad influence?

So yes, Sunnie is only 8 and yes, there is nothing wrong with how she looks. The issue though is whether she fits with the narrow role defined for her at her school. It sounds like she will be much happier in a public school.

Just for the record, MrMiggy & I are both Christian but hated working in Christian schools. (Five different schools between us.)

I worked in a Christian school as well. It was complete and utter hell. I taught there just out of college. I was a goody two shoes. I had never had a drink of alcohol. Never partied in college. Never been around drugs. Had barely dated at that point in my life. Was a quiet little church-going girl. And I still wasn't Christian enough or good enough or moral enough for these people. They nearly destroyed me. So I have a hard time excusing any Christian school. Shoving people into a box and demanding that they fit is damaging and destructive whether the person is 8 or 23.

That said, I could sort of see your point if this had been a high school student. At that point, the whole gender thing would matter (don't flame me everyone--it doesn't matter to me, but it matters to them and we're talking about them) and at that point, the student would be old enough to have potentially had some choice in being there in the first place. Then you can say, yeah, she signed up for this and these are their rules. But this is an 8 year old and the school was probably grandma and grandpa's decision. Plus, she may change what she wants to be in a year or two. And then she may change back. And she might change back after that. Which is why 8 year olds should not be burdened by gender roles in any setting.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

:angry-banghead:

I am unwilling to type the series of profanity that immediately popped in my head when I read that. :serious:

It is not really an exaggeration to view many of these people as a Christian Taliban....

Extremes are usually more similar than they are different. However, they focus on their differences more than their similarities, so they will never notice they're cut of the same cloth.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Good point!!

I have cousins who went to this school. There are several private schools in the area and from what I understand, this one is for the fundie-lite to fundie set. The curriculum is (or was, when my cousins were there) pretty much all from ABeka and BJU. I remember one of my cousins encountered evolution for the first time in college. She basically had to re-teach science to herself to get through her prereqs for the nursing program.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I see Miggy's point, but even if you are a religious school with certain standards, they can be enforced in a way that is fair and not cruel to kids.

My kids go to a private religious school with a dress code. By private religious school standards, the dress code is pretty mild, but the idea is that the Code of Conduct, including the dress code, is very clear. Some things are acceptable for school, some things aren't, and parents and students sign the Code of Conduct so everybody knows what's expected. There's no labelling of children, no getting into trouble for failing to follow something that's really vague.

I suspect that this child will be better off at public school, simply because any school that would treat a child this way clearly has no regard for the emotional well-being of the children in its care.

I know we've had some spirited debate here before on trans-gender children, but I think both sides would agree that the school was totally out of line here. A child who is EIGHT YEARS OLD is not capably of "sexual immorality", however you choose to define it. She's identifying herself as a girl, period. The school is reading something into her appearance and behavior, which may not be there at all because at age EIGHT, she has not yet hit puberty and it's not that unusual for little girls to want clothes that are comfortable and to engage in active play. At that age, I spent a lot of time climbing trees and playing in the sandbox while having short hair and unisex clothes, and I'm a heterosexual, cisgender woman.

[moodygirl86]

At least one of the schools associated with the group of churches Lori and Ken attend is just like that. I know people who pulled their daughters because only the boys were allowed to raise their hands and speak up in class.

What's the point in sending girls to those schools then?

As a lifelong tomboy, it's issues like this that got me interested in fundiedom. I'd definitely be an outcast in that kind of atmosphere. I've had one or two comments about my short hair etc from strangers, but no one ever acted like I was doing anything wrong for not conforming. So it was fascinating for me to find a site like this which devotes itself to stories of exactly that happening to people.

Thanks for spreading awareness.

[Coconut Flan]

What's the point in sending girls to the school?

The family I knew the best who left their daughters there bought into the whole fundie Christian perspective and believed it was "Godly" and teaching girls proper submissive attitudes. I kid you not. Their older daughter quickly became a ghost of herself. It would have scared and maddened almost anyone with some rational thought process going on who hadn't been brainwashed.

[docmom]

Coconut Flan wrote:At least one of the schools associated with the group of churches Lori and Ken attend is just like that. I know people who pulled their daughters because only the boys were allowed to raise their hands and speak up in class.

This is how you end up with Ken Alexander...

[already hungover]

As a female who identifies as a straight woman despite having a #2 buzz most of the time, I say "GO SUNNIE!"

It took me until I was an adult to be brave enough to shave my head.

[susykt4]

I was raised fundie at a time public and Catholic schools were the only options in my town. At that time, no one homeschooled (very popular in my parents' church now.) I was always a tomboy and always the little kid mistaken for a boy. The fundie women's attitudes toward the way I dressed and acted were one of the first things that made me start questioning their beliefs and eventually turned me against the church and Christianity. I was constantly told to sit ladylike while my boy cousins got to crawl around on the floor. Even at age 3 or 4 I knew this was a ridiculous attitude and that they were wrong. I wore jeans and t-shirts and had short hair and played in the mud. As I got older, some of them didn't want me to play with their children so that I didn't influence them into becoming lesbians. The thing was, I was never attracted to women, never wished I was a boy or that I wasn't a girl- I just wanted to be me and be accepted for who I was/am. I have never been the least bit interested in fashion, I just wanted to wear comfortable clothes and play hard. I still do!

I'm now in my 40s, have been married more than 20 years, have 2 children and my family and former church still think I'm terrible because of the way I dress (boring jeans and tees) and because I have a full-time job that I love. I still believe THEY have the problem and the bad attitude. I'm glad Sunnie is getting out of her school and crazy situation! They won't change and she can be who she is.

[pega127]

I posted the same link on the Duggar thread because Michelle and JimBob must be gloating!

[SunnyAndrsn]

I was raised fundie at a time public and Catholic schools were the only options in my town. At that time, no one homeschooled (very popular in my parents' church now.) I was always a tomboy and always the little kid mistaken for a boy. The fundie women's attitudes toward the way I dressed and acted were one of the first things that made me start questioning their beliefs and eventually turned me against the church and Christianity. I was constantly told to sit ladylike while my boy cousins got to crawl around on the floor. Even at age 3 or 4 I knew this was a ridiculous attitude and that they were wrong. I wore jeans and t-shirts and had short hair and played in the mud. As I got older, some of them didn't want me to play with their children so that I didn't influence them into becoming lesbians. The thing was, I was never attracted to women, never wished I was a boy or that I wasn't a girl- I just wanted to be me and be accepted for who I was/am. I have never been the least bit interested in fashion, I just wanted to wear comfortable clothes and play hard. I still do!

I'm now in my 40s, have been married more than 20 years, have 2 children and my family and former church still think I'm terrible because of the way I dress (boring jeans and tees) and because I have a full-time job that I love. I still believe THEY have the problem and the bad attitude. I'm glad Sunnie is getting out of her school and crazy situation! They won't change and she can be who she is.

Me too. While I think the school's asshattery should be brought to light, I'm so glad this poor child is out of there, and that her grandparents brought the school's behavior to light.

[itsnikki05]

I'm glad they're sticking up for her. Poor kid. What's wrong with a girl playing in the mud? Good grief, I think it's awesome she wants to be outside!

[itsnikki05]

She is eight years old!

Exactly! Dang. My kid is a little younger and although she has hair to her mid back, she really prefers to be outside. And I make her wear jeans and rain boots because it's more practical.

[ADoyle90815]

I'm glad they're sticking up for her. Poor kid. What's wrong with a girl playing in the mud? Good grief, I think it's awesome she wants to be outside!

I guess I would have been kicked out of that school as well, as I loved to spend time outside, and enjoyed playing in the mud even when my hair wasn't short.

[itsnikki05]

I guess I would have been kicked out of that school as well, as I loved to spend time outside, and enjoyed playing in the mud even when my hair wasn't short.

Me too! Kids need fresh air and sunshine! :)

[FloraKitty35]

I looked a lot like Sunny does when I was 8, for what it's worth. I hope that she spits out the fundie kool aid and looks back someday and think to herself "it hurt at the time, but I got really lucky in the long run, when I was rejected by those hypocritical assholes."

[Ralar]

This article makes the school's actions seem even more despicable: http://gma.yahoo.com/christian-school-bans-tomboy-girl-direction-shes-heading-202605889--abc-news-topstories.html

Teachers at Timberlake Christian Schools started asking Doris Thompson whether her granddaughter was a lesbian shortly after the little girl chopped off her waist-length hair to donate it to cancer patients, Thompson said.

Sunnie Kahle was only 3 at the time.

“You’re probably aware that Timberlake Christian Schools is a religious, Bible-believing institution providing education in a distinctly Christian environment, and we believe that our biblical role is to work in conjunction with the home to mold students to be ‘Christlike,’†Bowman’s letter reads, elaborating that her school “reserves the right†to refuse admission to students on grounds of homosexuality or alternative gender identity. “It seems that the school’s goals and biblical foundations are going to be in contradiction with the direction that Sunnie is heading at this point.â€

[Chowder Head]

Teachers at Timberlake Christian Schools started asking Doris Thompson whether her granddaughter was a lesbian shortly after the little girl chopped off her waist-length hair to donate it to cancer patients, Thompson said.

Sunnie Kahle was only 3 at the time.

:wtf: I would be fit to be tied. i was fit to be tied when i found out that my niece's teacher called her a heathen and told her she need to go to church. Full public school. She was 7yrs old :pull-hair:

[Jana814]

:wtf: I would be fit to be tied. i was fit to be tied when i found out that my niece's teacher called her a heathen and told her she need to go to church. Full public school. She was 7yrs old :pull-hair:

That's insane that it happened in a public school.

[Trynn]

Riiiiiiiight, because age 3 is TOTALLY when all the lesbians start having gay sex. It's like, a right of passage in their culture, you know, the "homosexual lifestyle."

[FloraKitty35]

That's insane that it happened in a public school.

I had that happen to me in first grade back in 1983-84 and this was in public school in Delaware. Only my first grade teacher usually called kids who didn't go to church or at least Sunday school (and I was one of them) unclean and sinful.