New Maxwell book: Debt-free homes!

[NoneandDoneinCali]

So much of this "debt-free lifestyle" hinges on living somewhere with low cost of living and inexpensive real estate. However, this system is deeply flawed - how many self-employed tow truck drivers, windshield repairmen, tree-trimming services and movers can a localized area of rural Kansas (or any state, really) support? I think assuming most of these guys make more than $15k a year is being generous - I don't know about the Maxwells per se, but most of their readers are NOT going to have opportunities like they did. Their isolation, inability to work for anyone other than another male who subscribes to their narrow worldview, and subpar homeschooling educations are shooting themselves in the proverbial foot. Even with the focus on homechurching and Big Sandy-like gatherings, there are only so many family ministries that can be supported. Supporting a family in anything like comfort in this system is just a pipedream for most families (and you'd better hope the house doesn't catch on fire, no one gets sick, and the car doesn't break down!).

Also, an entire BOOK on buying a home? Okay, a book on general debt-free finances would be interesting. But just on saving to buy a home for people with very simple finances? Let me paraphrase Steve here: "First, put money in an envelope. When it's full, start another envelope. When you have 100 envelopes, give them to someone godly who is selling their home. Death death praise Jesus." Repeat ad nauseum for about 200 pages ....

[ThatSnark]

Well, now they've done it-- let the cat out of the bag on the ultra-cheap housing market in Leavenworth, and now real estate prices are going to go through the roof as hordes of stampeding homeschool graduate boys hightail it to Kansas, cash in hand, to buy up the houses. Way to ruin everything for everyone else, Maxwells. :roll:

[YPestis]

In the Preparing Sons book, published back around 2000-ish, Steve touched on his sons (and anyone else's) can buy a debt-free home prior to marriage:

1. A well-trained 18yo homeschool graduate should be able to start making $40k straight from graduation. That was about a decade back. Calculated for inflation, that's about $50k in today's dollars.

2. Have son live at home and live frugally. Steve calculates the young man should be able to save about half his income.

3. If son is frugal, in about 7-10 years time, there should be enough money in the bank to allow for a home purchase.

Easy, right?

Of course, that's assuming an 18 yo can find a job that pays (in today's dollars) $50k, that said job is near the parents' home, and that said parents live in a cheap part of the country. Yeah, if everything aligns perfectly, then a young man may be able to purchase a house debt-free before marriage.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think it's possible for a teenager with his own successful business to make $50k, but I don't think that's the norm. I'm also skeptical that level of income would be steady for years to come. What happens if this 18 yo small business sees fluctuations in successive years? What happens if it goes out of business in a few years? The young man may need to eat into his savings to jumpstart another business, or he may be forced to take a minimal wage job (as young people sometimes do in between jobs). Then what? He delays marriage for several more years because his debt-free home is now out of reach?

There's also the problem of having a small, successful business near a cheap part of the country. The Maxwells are lucky that they live in Leavensworth. Houses are cheap and it is an hour commute to Kansas City. The sons can (and do) commute to the larger city where there are more plentiful jobs but have access to cheap houses in the sticks. Not everyone is that lucky. What happens if you live near a major city where all the housing is uber-expensive? What if you live in a rural area, where housing is cheap, but jobs are not plentiful? How many 18yo's programing and accounting businesses can be supported in a farming town of 10,000?

There's also the issue of being born into a family that lives in a cheap part of the country. As many posters upthread noted, even a simple house in parts of the country starts at $300k. Then what? No marriage until 45yo?

Plus, fundie men have limited skillsets. Steve likes to brag about his sons' skills. They can code and use software programs, have self-taught accounting skills know how to manage a small business. All good skills to have, but rather limited in scope for many companies expecting credentials and degrees as well.

What's more, fundie men actively limit their education. They avoid mainstream colleges, refuse to take basic liberal arts courses and science classes because it clashes with their world view. Going to graduate school seems a rarity for many fundies (forget about the Maxwells). All of this will shut out lucrative professions. Suffice it to say, finding a sustainable job with financial security and solid income will not be possible for all fundie men. There's only so many used-car sales lot, tree cutting business, online IT classes that can be supported within a non-metro area.

Plus, not all of these businesses will see years of success. A quarter of small businesses fail their first year. Others will fail in successive years. It seems foolhardy to limit your sons and their education to running small businesses. Not everyone is cut out for it anyway, and given other fundie restrictions, not many places can support the same fundie-approved small businesses either.

The world is a scary place for Steve and his family. The problem is, it's getting increasingly difficult to isolate oneself from the rest of the world. Debt-free housing, small businesses etc are all part of the Maxwells attempt to avoid the world. Yet, they still depend on the world to support their lives. Steve can save us all a lot of grief by selling his house and buying a piece of land to homestead and live off the grid. He can avoid all EVERYONE that way.

[AuntCloud]

Leavenworth, Kansas is a pretty inexpensive place to live.

http://www.trulia.com/KS/Leavenworth/

You can buy some pretty nice appearing homes in the $150,000 dollar range. They probably need a bit of work but you can recruit the rest of your family to help with that so you only have the material cost.

Granted, I know next to nothing about this market, so I'm not sure if $150K will get you a nice home in a nice area, but I strongly suspect it does based on some of the other homes for sale in Leavenworth.

We bought a small town home for way more than a decent-sized house in Leavenworth, mainly because we wanted to be near some excellent schools - scratch that, schools are redundant on planet homeschool. We're also in a convenient location for getting to work - scratch that, women don't work, silly me, and men only work for themselves and are not tied up to an evil workplace. We're close to some nice shopping centres, parks and bike paths - scratch that, walking around malls is a waste of time and biking is way too much fun and required both of us to wear bike shorts, tsk tsk. If none of these considerations were relevant, we could probably branch out to the country and get something for $180k - otherwise, expect to pay $400K and upwards, sometimes way upwards, in my beautiful but expensive city.

[Peas n carrots]

We bought a small town home for way more than a decent-sized house in Leavenworth, mainly because we wanted to be near some excellent schools - scratch that, schools are redundant on planet homeschool. We're also in a convenient location for getting to work - scratch that, women don't work, silly me, and men only work for themselves and are not tied up to an evil workplace. We're close to some nice shopping centres, parks and bike paths - scratch that, walking around malls is a waste of time and biking is way too much fun and required both of us to wear bike shorts, tsk tsk. If none of these considerations were relevant, we could probably branch out to the country and get something for $180k - otherwise, expect to pay $400K and upwards, sometimes way upwards, in my beautiful but expensive city.

I grew up in a boring ass small Midwestern town, and if your interests are hunting and fishing, those are great places to live. Otherwise....well, I guess it explains why I got the hell out of there and moved to Chicago as soon as I could afford it!

I would be curious to find Maxhell on google street view. I'm curious to see what their 'hood looks like.

[AuntCloud]

I knew very early on I'm a big city girl and nothing can change that. DH and I both grew up in a bustling city and are on the same page about being near shops, cafes, museums and preferably a nice philharmonic orchestra. That just eliminated many small and rural areas and limits us to expensive markets. On the other hand, we're very happy and sometimes too busy to dust the ceiling fans.

Yersinia (YPestis), you hit the nail on the head. The next Maxwell instalment: "How to avoid all contact with humanity".

[Black Aliss]

Well, now they've done it-- let the cat out of the bag on the ultra-cheap housing market in Leavenworth, and now real estate prices are going to go through the roof as hordes of stampeding homeschool graduate boys hightail it to Kansas, cash in hand, to buy up the houses.

And also to court the three lovely young Maxwell girls.

[ladyamylynn]

And also to court the three lovely young Maxwell girls.

"Young"

[Lillybee]

I wonder how much Steve pays the children. I am pretty sure that the girls make next to nothing.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Can women be part of this? Outside Maxwell land, women buy homes all the time. I wonder if Stevie's head would explode to hear of women who bought homes debt free? They exist; I happen to work with a 32 year old woman who did just that.

Of course, as home schoolers they don't have to consider school districts so their options are probably broader as far as location. Here, if you want a house for less than $200,000 you have to live in some less than stellar neighborhoods.

I own my house now, debt-free.

However, I took out a mortgage to buy it, and I will go on the record and say that I think it's the smarter way to do things for NORMAL people who don't have a place to live rent-free while working for a decade or so to save up money. A smart mortgage can be a good type of debt to take on, if you live in an area where the rent vs. buy prices make sense, and you do it wisely.

In my case, I had a good stable job, and I live in a place with cheap houses. However, even with cheap houses, I have nowhere to live for FREE, which means it was a choice between continuing to pay rent on rooms, or finding a house where the mortgage payment wasn't all that much more, and yet the money is going to buy me some long-term asset. In my area at the time, this was very doable.

So I got a mortgage where the minimum payment was quite small (not much more than my room rent) but that had no problem with overpaying or paying off the loan early (which is what I planned to do). Buying a small cheap house meant that even if I had to take a worse job, I could probably still make the minimum payment (when it comes to money, I am paranoid :)), but with my job, I was able to multiple pay the thing constantly and repay the loan in 7 years. And that was with a federal aid loan (I know, horrors) and a downpayment of maybe 5%.

For ME, it was a good choice.

The Maxwell recipe probably assumes that kids are going to live with their parents until it's time to buy their own house. It probably also assumes that the family is well off enough that the kids aren't already employed and putting all their earnings back into the family bank account just to keep the FAMILY house afloat.

I suspect a lot of people are going to buy this thing and find out that it doesn't quite work for them, because they're not already living the Maxwell style. For a lot of people, it's not a choice between "buy a house outright" and "not put any money toward housing" because a roof over your head is one thing you actually NEED, so if you're on your own for real, you gotta rent somewhere anyhow.

I have to wonder if the Maxwells ever take out debt for their business? It sounds like maybe they don't, if they're the hard-core type of debt-free evangelists. But most normal people consider that there is such a thing as good, responsible debt, particularly for business. Invest in capital that will bring in money to pay for itself in a short time, is great, but that means you're in debt (aaaaahhh!) for that short time.

[Jana814]

I wonder how much Steve pays the children. I am pretty sure that the girls make next to nothing.

I'm sure u r probably right!

[SPHASH]

I'm sure u r probably right!

That way they can't escape.

[Mela99]

Houses are pretty cheap in our neck of the woods (Thanks, Michigan!). We paid 80k for a foreclosure and it was valued at 143k. There are a lot of great steals, but I still can't imagine how much and how long you'd have to work for a debt free house - unless you're a stay at home son with zero bills for 30 years.

I'd be curious to see what he thinks will get them debt free homes. He surely can't be marketing this to book to everybody - unless the kdis are homeschooled and working before the age of 16, never go to college, and have their parents pay all their living expenses.

It's just not realistic any other way. You can't tell a kid in high school to start workinng for a debt free home and expect to have one b y the time he is ready to move out.

[AllisonWndrland]

Leavenworth, Kansas is a pretty inexpensive place to live.

http://www.trulia.com/KS/Leavenworth/

You can buy some pretty nice appearing homes in the $150,000 dollar range. They probably need a bit of work but you can recruit the rest of your family to help with that so you only have the material cost.

Granted, I know next to nothing about this market, so I'm not sure if $150K will get you a nice home in a nice area, but I strongly suspect it does based on some of the other homes for sale in Leavenworth.

I haven't read the thread, so someone may have replied already. Housing in northeast Kansas is relatively inexpensive. You can have over 3000 sq. ft for less than $225,000 and that's across most of Topeka. Homes in very nice areas are more, but the typical family home is still very affordable at under $160,000 just down the street from me. I have no doubt Steve got great deals on the homes he has purchased. Even building here is fairly inexpensive. That doesn't mean I agree with Steve, though. Mortgage rates are good right now and his expectations for a one income family are ridiculous. But then, most of his expectations are ridiculous.

[thepinkleprechaun]

The median home price in my neighborhood is like $750K, the crappy fixer uppers are at least $300-400K (and small). Of course I live in a liberal hotbed near a secular university and no fundie in their right mind would want to live in my city ;)

Even Dave Ramsey says it's okay to mortgage a home! Provided that you have a good down payment, no other debt and 6 months of living expenses in savings.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I bought my house, debt free, when I was 34, single and self employed (and putting myself through -- gasp -- college.) I'm a woman.

I am certain Steve Maxwell thinks I am not worthy to look him in the eye, if only for the reasons listed above (imagine if he really knew me.)

Incidentally, I am now married, still own that house (rental property) and Mr. Womb owns a house with a mortgage (rental property) and we have moved to a place, for work, that is so far out of our price range we can't buy with or without a mortgage, so we rent.

The blog specifically states that buying a home debt free is for young men. And even the young man isn't allowed to actually move into his own debt free house until he gets married because he cannot be trusted to live alone.

[lilwriter85]

It's about time for John to buy his debt-free home. He's a year younger than Joseph, who bought his house about 2 years ago. I predict John will buy one sometime this year.

I predict that too and we will get a blog entry written by Sarah. The follow ups will be the family visiting a tile store or Home Depot.

[Justme]

I predict that too and we will get a blog entry written by Sarah. The follow ups will be the family visiting a tile store or Home Depot.

Joe didn't buy one until he was ready to propose to Liz. I don't think we'll see John buying one until he has a lucky lady in his sights.... :P

No sense buying a home to have it sit vacant while having to pay insurance and other expenses.

[twin2]

Joe didn't buy one until he was ready to propose to Liz. I don't think we'll see John buying one until he has a lucky lady in his sights.... :P

No sense buying a home to have it sit vacant while having to pay insurance and other expenses.

John will also not be buying a home until one opens up within a 1 mi. radius of Maxhell.....

[Coconut Flan]

If John needs a house maybe he can take over Joseph's unless Joseph gets out wife hunting again.

[lilwriter85]

Didn't Steve and/or Terri start using Joe's house as an office?

[Seven Severn]

I would be curious to find Maxhell on google street view. I'm curious to see what their 'hood looks like.

It's a small town, middle class neighborhood and Steve himself used to be on street view, but it's since been updated.

[August]

Houses are pretty cheap in our neck of the woods (Thanks, Michigan!). We paid 80k for a foreclosure and it was valued at 143k. There are a lot of great steals, but I still can't imagine how much and how long you'd have to work for a debt free house - unless you're a stay at home son with zero bills for 30 years..

About three and a half years, $80k @$2k a month.

[snickerz]

I don't believe that they receive regular salaries with taxes and social security taken out. More likely they get an allowance. I am not even sure that Steve doesn't own at least part of the adult sons' homes.

What no one mentions is that most of these fundies have no choice but to save and buy a home debt free. When you don't have a real job, that brings in a steady income, that can be documented, you are not getting a mortgage. Wells Fargo doesn't want to hear that you work in your family's ministry and receive money sometimes.

I wonder how honest Stevie is with the IRS. When their income is largely made up of book sales, $10 here and $20 there, does it truly all get reported to the IRS? Hmmmm..... I'll bet not. Stevie probably thinks he's above the IRS.

[DGayle]

Also, an entire BOOK on buying a home? Okay, a book on general debt-free finances would be interesting. But just on saving to buy a home for people with very simple finances? Let me paraphrase Steve here: "First, put money in an envelope. When it's full, start another envelope. When you have 100 envelopes, give them to someone godly who is selling their home. Death death praise Jesus." Repeat ad nauseum for about 200 pages ....

Sure, a book the length of a children's picture book, complete with illustrations for the illiterate among them.