Of Fundies & Wine

[0 kids n not countin]

"Drink" for thought:

If you don't drink fine, but come on now...

"The Darkness of the Drink"

Prov. 20:1

1. Description of Drink

-Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. The word mocker means to scorn to make fun of. When someone takes a drink, specifically wine, they are being made light of or fun of by that substance. No one likes to be called names or picked at, but my friend if you enter into the darkness of drinking wine the devil is having a field day at mocking you. Making fun at you. Strong drink covers everything from beer to wine to liquor. It describes all intoxicating beverages including wine. The Bible says in our verse that strong drink is raging. The word raging means vehemently driven or agitated. When you begin to drink your liquor, beer, and wine that substance begins to drive you! It begins to control you. Once you begin to drink you are no longer your own!

2. Deception of Drink

- The Bible says in our text "whosoever is deceived." It's a serious thing to be deceived! The word deceived means to err, to swerve, to commit sin, ignorance. Friend of mine since the first mention of wine in Noah's day men have been being deceived by booze! Noah got drunk and because of his drunkness a whole line of people (Ham) was cursed. Noah never intended on hurting any one, he never intended on getting off track, but when he put the booze to his lips he was deceived! You may think you can handle just a little, but a little will always lead to a lot! The bottle has deceived you it has caused you to err, to swerve, to commit sin, to be ignorant! Whether you have only taken one drink or you've taken a thousand, booze has deceived you! It will cause you to be someone you're not. Don't let it deceive you any longer! Prov. 23:29-35

3. Destruction of Drink

-The last part of our text verse says "is not wise." The verse is saying whoever partakes of wine and strong drink. Whoever is deceived by this stuff called booze "is not wise!" The word wise means having the power of discerning and judging correctly, or of discriminating between what is true and what is false. Once you become "not wise" you lose all the things this definition mentions. You lose discernment, judgement, or the value of truth! One drink impairs and one drink is all it takes to make you unwise! What is the difference in being wise? Being a fool! Our nation, our states, our sinners, and now our saints have been fooled by drink! There are marriages ruined, children who are being raised in split homes, battered women and children, lives lost, etc. because of the drink! We think we can handle it friend, but we are all dirty rotten flesh! We're being destroyed by the devil! Don't be a fool; don't drink!

In closing I would like to say I wrote this with no one in mind. I have no desire to be ugly or mean, but I hate this stuff! I hate what it does to people! Friend if you are in the "Darkness of Drink" today there is hope! If you'll take a drink from the fountain of life today you'll never want anything else. Jesus will fill that void! Jesus will take away what has deceived you and give you life everlasting! Jim Beam will never do for you what Jesus will! Hallelujah!

[NurseNell]

I don't drink alcohol. My parents had wine with their meals and us kids were free to have a small glass if we wanted. Red wine gave me headaches and I just didn't like the taste of white wine or beer. In high school I did a report on alcoholism. At that time I had grown up being told my paternal grandfather was an alcoholic so I decided, based on my research for the paper that showed a genetic link, not to ever drink. Well, that GF was not an alcoholic. But I continued to say no to alcohol. But it's just a choice. I don't get religious objections to alcohol. Jesus did change water into wine at the marriage in Cana. Alcohol, especially wine, has health benefits. Those with religious objections can't seem to distinguish between drinking and getting drunk.

[Miggy]

All the quotes are OT. Where are the NT quotes which say it's fine to have alcohol if you can control it but you shouldn't have it if you can't or if it will lead others astray? Basically, don't offer it to alcoholics and don't drink to excess. I get really annoyed with fundies who claim to follow Jesus but don't use his teachings because it doesn't suit their agenda. They use the OT stuff instead.

[louisa05]

I don't drink alcohol. My parents had wine with their meals and us kids were free to have a small glass if we wanted. Red wine gave me headaches and I just didn't like the taste of white wine or beer. In high school I did a report on alcoholism. At that time I had grown up being told my paternal grandfather was an alcoholic so I decided, based on my research for the paper that showed a genetic link, not to ever drink. Well, that GF was not an alcoholic. But I continued to say no to alcohol. But it's just a choice. I don't get religious objections to alcohol. Jesus did change water into wine at the marriage in Cana. Alcohol, especially wine, has health benefits. Those with religious objections can't seem to distinguish between drinking and getting drunk.

I have, multiple times, heard long, convoluted explanations from evangelicals that he turned the water into grape juice. Because nothing saves a party like a few barrels of grape juice. Counter with that sarcasm and they explain that it was "fresh grape juice" and everyone loved and wanted "fresh grape juice" in first century Palestine. :?

[Arete]

Whenever I hear or read the evangelical explanation of the Cana wine actually being grape juice, I can't decide whether to shit or go blind.

They also forget that Paul instructed Timothy to "have some wine for thy stomach, and for thy other ailments..."

[YPestis]

Well, no one ever said fundies made sense haha. It's ironic given that so many fundies come from cultures which traditionally drank alcoholic beverages that they would try to pretend that, ahem, Jesus and his good Christians were just a bunch of juice lovers! Really? *You* try drinking straight from the source before the modern age and see how far you get with that.....

[twin2]

GRAPE JUICE people, not wine, GRAPE JUICE!!

Did Anna's father not give us a long lecture on her wedding day about it being GRAPE JUICE!

[JesusFightClub]

*headdesk* The Bible basically indicates that getting pissed is a bad idea and don't do shots (don't drink with the aim of getting drunk). It definitely does not say "don't have a glass of wine or a pint of beer with a meal".

TBH, if you do not drink then fair play, and it is a healthy choice. But you can't use the Bible to back it. Just like you can't use the Bible to argue for veganism.

This is a bit mental:

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. The word mocker means to scorn to make fun of. When someone takes a drink, specifically wine, they are being made light of or fun of by that substance.

WHAT :o

I don't want to live in a world where inanimate substances mock me for consuming them. That sounds less like religion and more like the sort of thing they give you heavy antipsychotics to counteract.

[Melissa1977]

Wine is an important drink in Mediterranean culture, it has been for millions of years. Vineyards had been grown since ancient times (yes, biblical times!) and people built cellars and made vessels to keep the wine, as you can see in museums.

Fundies doesn't understand history. In ancient times people drank wine because it was somehow nutritious (not a lot of food available) and because water wasn't potable. They mixed water with wine because wine's alcohol killed bacteria.

Of course in big celebrations, wine was used to cheers and to get drunk. That's why Jesus made the miracle of turning water into wine, because he wanted to make people happy! (I'm not a believer, but I can only find this explanation to the story).

It's ridiculous to think that Bible refers to grape juice. First, wine and grape are different words in all the languages I know. And second, grape harvest is only in september. So you can only have natural grape juice during one month. I'd like to remember fundies that 2000 years ago fridges didn't exist. And if you try to keep natural juice in a cellar, in 2 days it would be rotten. Also, nobody growns enormous vineyards just for a little juice and fruit. Farming was very hard in the past, so their efforts must have a big goal, and having drink for a year is a better goal than having juice for a month.

My grandfather was deeply catholic. He said that in the Bible, each time wine appears, something good happens. So he said that wine was godly. Maybe he could have had an argument with Mr. Keller. :lol:

[miffy]

It amuses me endlessly that a group of people who believe in Biblical infallibility try to twist the water into wine thing into being grape juice.

Mr Keller should squeeze some OJ, leave it sitting outside during the summer in Florida for a week & then try drinking it. MMMMM delicious bacteria!

[miffy]

Also I think Fundies are anti-wine because they are convinced that everybody is teetering on the edge of immorality & one sip of wine will make them show their knees.

I should find the photos of my great grandmother dressed up as a hillbilly party girl pretending to drink moonshine. She married a Methodist Minister & did was fundies can only dream of, paid missionary work with IRL heathens!

[Koala]

I have, multiple times, heard long, convoluted explanations from evangelicals that he turned the water into grape juice. Because nothing saves a party like a few barrels of grape juice. Counter with that sarcasm and they explain that it was "fresh grape juice" and everyone loved and wanted "fresh grape juice" in first century Palestine. :?

:lol:

The grape juice shit is just another case of the fundies being more holy than Jesus :roll:

[nausicaa]

I work with a (very vocal) Seventh-Day Adventist, and he claims the wine Jesus and his ilk drank was "non-fermented," and that there were different words in Aramaic for fermented and non-fermented wine. (It is amusing to me when he reads from the Bible because when the word wine comes up, he automatically whispers "non-fermented" as an aside. And yes he reads from the Bible at work.)

Do evangelical fundies actually use the word "grape juice" or do they use the "non-fermented" code word to sound a little more legit?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I work with a (very vocal) Seventh-Day Adventist, and he claims the wine Jesus and his ilk drank was "non-fermented," and that there were different words in Aramaic for fermented and non-fermented wine. (It is amusing to me when he reads from the Bible because when the word wine comes up, he automatically whispers "non-fermented" as an aside. And yes he reads from the Bible at work.)

Do evangelical fundies actually use the word "grape juice" or do they use the "non-fermented" code word to sound a little more legit?

Anna Duggar said Jesus turned water into grape juice.

[Savoring Samsara]

All the quotes are OT. Where are the NT quotes which say it's fine to have alcohol if you can control it but you shouldn't have it if you can't or if it will lead others astray? Basically, don't offer it to alcoholics and don't drink to excess. I get really annoyed with fundies who claim to follow Jesus but don't use his teachings because it doesn't suit their agenda. They use the OT stuff instead.

I'm fond of Matthew 15:10-19 in these circumstances:

10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.â€

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?â€

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.â€

15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.â€

16 “Are you still so dull?†Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

[Savoring Samsara]

I work with a (very vocal) Seventh-Day Adventist, and he claims the wine Jesus and his ilk drank was "non-fermented," and that there were different words in Aramaic for fermented and non-fermented wine. (It is amusing to me when he reads from the Bible because when the word wine comes up, he automatically whispers "non-fermented" as an aside. And yes he reads from the Bible at work.)

That is legitimately hilarious.

[EmiGirl]

Also we can't forget where Jesus is talking to someone and mentions that the Jewish leaders criticized John for not drinking wine and then turned around and criticized Him FOR drinking wine.

[nana sew dear]

When Mr. Keller said that I thought he was joking because most Protestants take grape juice for communion and because there were kids around. It wasn't until I began lurking on FJ that I realized he wasn't kidding. Can't help but love how the righteous ones can justify anything they want by cherry picking through the good book.

[ADoyle90815]

I don't drink alcohol. My parents had wine with their meals and us kids were free to have a small glass if we wanted. Red wine gave me headaches and I just didn't like the taste of white wine or beer. In high school I did a report on alcoholism. At that time I had grown up being told my paternal grandfather was an alcoholic so I decided, based on my research for the paper that showed a genetic link, not to ever drink. Well, that GF was not an alcoholic. But I continued to say no to alcohol. But it's just a choice. I don't get religious objections to alcohol. Jesus did change water into wine at the marriage in Cana. Alcohol, especially wine, has health benefits. Those with religious objections can't seem to distinguish between drinking and getting drunk.

It's a common belief among Mormons especially that one drink is enough to get someone drunk, and makes someone into an alcoholic. It wouldn't surprise me if fundies shared that belief. It's fine if someone has religious reasons for not drinking alcohol, but their excuses are based on a lack of knowledge about history, as until relatively recently, alcoholic beverages were safer to drink than water because the nasty bacteria doesn't survive the fermentation process. Another thing is that without pasteurization and refrigeration, fruit juices would naturally ferment.

[YPestis]

It's a common belief among Mormons especially that one drink is enough to get someone drunk, and makes someone into an alcoholic. It wouldn't surprise me if fundies shared that belief. It's fine if someone has religious reasons for not drinking alcohol, but their excuses are based on a lack of knowledge about history, as until relatively recently, alcoholic beverages were safer to drink than water because the nasty bacteria doesn't survive the fermentation process. Another thing is that without pasteurization and refrigeration, fruit juices would naturally ferment.

I've also heard Mormons say that a glance at pornography will turn you into a porn addict. I think this is a common idea, that one touch of the forbidden will destroy your life.

Yeah, I was also curious how these "water to grape juice" people could explain how people back then were able to access fresh grape juice all the time? Grapes aren't year-round fruits and most people didn't live near a vineyard. Hmmm.

[salex]

:lol:

The grape juice shit is just another case of the fundies being more holy than Jesus :roll:

I was raised in a teetotalling family... one side was temperance feminists and the other had a serious alcoholic a couple of generations before my grandfather--enough that it was just not done (Lutherans aren't usually teetotallers, but he was) But none of my non drinking family ever suggested the wine in the bible was not wine.

I have a wine cellar, today, and my mother still loves me.

[debrand]

How were the ancients Hebrews supposed to keep the grape juice from fermenting? I'm pretty certain that grapes have a season that they can be picked and made into juice. Grape juice doesn't just remain grape juice. It will ferment or turn rancid eventually.

Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the process to prevent grape juice from fermenting.

With the first edition of their Discipline, the Wesleyan Methodists expressly required for the Lord's Supper that "unfermented wine only should be used at the sacrament."[3] This requirement was about 25 years before Welch used pasteurization. So it is clearly evident that pasteurization was not the only method used to prepare it unfermented. There were traditional methods to prepare unfermented wine (juice) for use at any time during the year, e.g. to reconstitute concentrated grape juice, or to boil raisins, or to add preservatives that prevent juice from fermenting and souring.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

By the way, I've heard some fundies or right wing Protestants say that the people during Jesus's time used the boiling raisins methods to get grape juice. That sounds like an incredibly nasty drink and I doubt that the wedding guest would have been happy with raisin juice.

[salex]

How were the ancients Hebrews supposed to keep the grape juice from fermenting? I'm pretty certain that grapes have a season that they can be picked and made into juice. Grape juice doesn't just remain grape juice. It will ferment or turn rancid eventually.

Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the process to prevent grape juice from fermenting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

By the way, I've heard some fundies or right wing Protestants say that the people during Jesus's time used the boiling raisins methods to get grape juice. That sounds like an incredibly nasty drink and I doubt that the wedding guest would have been happy with raisin juice.

Wasn't the Methodist anti alcohol stance based on the fact that Wesley was preaching and teaching to a group where alcoholism was a problem, or is that just something I dreamed....

[ThisOlGirl]

How were the ancients Hebrews supposed to keep the grape juice from fermenting? I'm pretty certain that grapes have a season that they can be picked and made into juice. Grape juice doesn't just remain grape juice. It will ferment or turn rancid eventually.

Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the process to prevent grape juice from fermenting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

By the way, I've heard some fundies or right wing Protestants say that the people during Jesus's time used the boiling raisins methods to get grape juice. That sounds like an incredibly nasty drink and I doubt that the wedding guest would have been happy with raisin juice.

Raisin juice sounds too close to prune juice, and I never want to find myself at a party where prune juice is the featured beverage.

[RachelB]

Wasn't the Methodist anti alcohol stance based on the fact that Wesley was preaching and teaching to a group where alcoholism was a problem, or is that just something I dreamed....

Yeah, that's what I heard, too-- that he was initially ministering to people who were anaesthetizing themselves to try to deal with awful, exploitive working conditions.