Happy 32nd Birthday, Sarah Maxwell!

[WonderingInWA]

I'd like to hear more about Christopher's broken engagement.

Search FJ for Sara Smith and Christopher Maxwell. We've discussed before, but I don't have time right now to find it for you (sorry!). He was engaged to a lively, pretty girl (they had a wedding date and everything). She worked for ATI/Gothard. I think she ended up being just way too worldly for him. She wears stylish clothes and has been known to travel alone and with people who aren't her family members (even went to China, IIRC). Steve got involved and broke off the engagement (or so it has been presumed) -- it was done at the father-to-father level, and then photos of Sara and Christopher disappeared from the blog. It was a couple of years before he was suddenly courting and engaged to NR-Anna, so probably 2007/2008 or so.

[WonderingInWA]

Wasn't Christopher's broken engagement quite similar to Joseph's? I don't think it happened a week before the wedding like Joseph's did, but wasn't the woman in question more worldly and fun, kind of like Elizabeth Munck? And then Christopher chose NR Anna to replace her. That's why I think Joseph's going to end up choosing someone very conservative and demure.

Yep, jinx! And you're right, Joseph will pick someone who likes beige and frumpers. They are safer, you know.

[nausicaa]

Exactly. He's peddling a philosophy that isn't working. Sarah is evidence of that. Nathan got married before the truly crazy set in. Christopher had a broken engagement (not even just a broken courtship) before he finally got married at 30-something. They skipped over Sarah, and then Joseph had a broken engagement and cancelled wedding and now he's still got no courtship 18 months later.

Not workin', Stevie.

I wonder what will win out: his love of money or his love of his ego. Will he push Sarah to marry once he realizes how much her singleness is hurting business?

[nausicaa]

Thank you NellieBell, that's really kind of you. My biggest fear is finishing my degree and being completely crippled by my lack of work history (because I won't even consider not finishing it). The career I want is pretty highly specialised and requires an undergrad degree and an MA, so every time I think I'm doing well I realise I'm nowhere near my MA and freak out.

It's kind of comforting to know there are other people who feel they're in a similar position to me, in terms of people succeeding around them and feeling like they're somehow more an adult child than an adult.

I'm in my late twenties and the last few years were really a struggle for me in feeling that others were so far ahead of me socially and that I was so irreparably behind, and only falling farther behind with each passing year.

It was hard, and I feel like I'm just coming out of it and feeling more comfortable with myself and who I am (and where I am). My only advice is to not think too far forward, focus on shorter and mid term goals (six months to a year max). Thinking about the next few decades (which no one can predict anyway) is what led to the middle of the night, clutching the mattress, panic attacks.

You're definitely not alone in feeling this way.

[Justme]

I wonder what will win out: his love of money or his love of his ego. Will he push Sarah to marry once he realizes how much her singleness is hurting business?

He can't push her if no one is knocking on the door. I imagine a large number of single young fundie men/boys are intimidated by Steve.

Unless he mellows out a lot, Anna and Mary will be spinsters, too.

[Jana814]

He can't push her if no one is knocking on the door. I imagine a large number of single young fundie men/boys are intimidated by Steve.

Unless he mellows out a lot, Anna and Mary will be spinsters, too.

I highly doubt that Steve will mellow out anytime soon.

[flojo]

I'll bet you're considered an adult in that household too.

That's what gets me the most about the Maxwell situation - they insist the younger generation is "children" until they marry, and then they don't give any opportunities for them to find anyone TO marry.

So Sarah, at 32, is not an adult in her world. She is still "sheltered."

Plenty of people the world over live in multigenerational households, even bringing home their spouse to live in the same home with their parents still. And yet, usually they're adults, with a full stake in the running of the household (or family business, in a lot of cases). They go OUT when they want, they mix with the public.

The other thing I find so horrible about Sarah's situation is that she's effectively being prevented from having the sort of life SHE was raised to want - uber fundie stay-at-home homeschooling mom of many. I cannot imagine how awful it must be when (if?) her younger sisters get married, because they will become adults while she's left a child still.

We are an example of this - After returning from living in Japan, Mr. Flojo couldn't find a job in his field so is working retail and applying for grad school. I can't yet work due to immigration, so we are living with his parents and sister. It is temporary, but more so, we are 100% adults and treated as such. We have a surprise pregnancy, so may stay here longer than originally anticipated if we can't defer school and get him a better job (we find out on Wednesday if everything is viable - I've been having some not great symptoms). Regardless, I feel completely comfortable - never have my in laws treated me as anything but an equal adult.

[Divemaster01]

I feel so sad for Poor Sarah, I was engaged and married at 32. I met my dear sweet husband when I was 30 and dated him for 2 years(unchaperoned). I had already been living on my own since college graduation at 22. I knew him real when when it was time to tie the knot. This year we celebrate our 15th and I couldn't be happier! I wish she could have had my life. What a waste! I hope it is not too late for her to have some happiness in this life.

[nokidsmom]

I highly doubt that Steve will mellow out anytime soon.

I would be extremely surprised if Steve mellowed. To me, he looks to have hunkered down even more over the years and the failed engagements are going to be proof of how he has to be more more controlling and sheltering of his remaining kids at home versus realizing that he should back off. And it's interesting to read that even their own followers are noting there's something wrong with the number of adult kids still at home,and especially Sarah still being sheltered at 32.

And, yes, I am sure that there's been a number of young men that have expressed interest in Sarah but Steve either imtimates them or finds a way to rule out the ones that manage to make an effort anyway. And Sarah would be aware of that. Even if she buys into the idea that the guy wasn't deemed worthy of Daddy, down deep there might just be a growing realization that Daddy is the problem. But of course, since Daddy = God, she can't allow herself to voice that or even think about it for very long.

[Ellimenopy]

I would be extremely surprised if Steve mellowed. To me, he looks to have hunkered down even more over the years and the failed engagements are going to be proof of how he has to be more more controlling and sheltering of his remaining kids at home versus realizing that he should back off. And it's interesting to read that even their own followers are noting there's something wrong with the number of adult kids still at home,and especially Sarah still being sheltered at 32.

And, yes, I am sure that there's been a number of young men that have expressed interest in Sarah but Steve either imtimates them or finds a way to rule out the ones that manage to make an effort anyway. And Sarah would be aware of that. Even if she buys into the idea that the guy wasn't deemed worthy of Daddy, down deep there might just be a growing realization that Daddy is the problem. But of course, since Daddy = God, she can't allow herself to voice that or even think about it for very long.

I think this situation is as fucked up as anyone else does, but I don't see Steve as evil. He's a victim of his own delusions just as much as anyone else in the house is. Yes, he *is* the problem. But he's not doing it to be mean. He genuinely thinks that this is the way God wants him to live. What I'm trying to say is that I don't ever see him "loosening up." It's not a preference or a choice for him. The best hope for his girls is an early death to Steve.

[NellieBell]

Thank you NellieBell, that's really kind of you. My biggest fear is finishing my degree and being completely crippled by my lack of work history (because I won't even consider not finishing it). The career I want is pretty highly specialised and requires an undergrad degree and an MA, so every time I think I'm doing well I realise I'm nowhere near my MA and freak out.

It's kind of comforting to know there are other people who feel they're in a similar position to me, in terms of people succeeding around them and feeling like they're somehow more an adult child than an adult.

You're welcome. I think you've got guts going for such a specialized degree and would hope that potential employers would look at your college work as a sort of work history. I kind of understand how you feel regarding the adult-child thing, only in my case it was too old to relate to classmates. I also (wrongly I'm sure) assumed they had it much easier as school was their only concern. I nearly quit while going for the Bachelor's in Nursing. If it weren't for a friend who told me to put my shitty thoughts away and get my balls to wall and GO, I doubt I would have made it. She also understood that there was still a brain chemical unbalance and suggested another antidepressant.

Sorry if I sound like a sappy - although raunchy - Hallmark card. But sometimes a corny pep talk is what is warranted. Vex - you go girl and soar. If you never get offered a job in your field at least you have the satisfaction of having finished that degree. Although it's absolutely not the same thing as landing the job, it still will feel pretty damn good. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks you can do it.

I never meant to measure my accomplishments against Sarah Maxwell. I cannot fathom being raised in her environment. The only reason I brought my history up was because I was raised in a very verbal, emotional and sometimes physical environment. My mother also did everything in her power to force me into business school and away from nursing. She did not understand that my career was not her choice. I only wanted to say that even though it took me years to get to nursing school, I did and managed to breakaway from my mother's unhealthy, obsessive influence. She's now secured in the rear view mirror where she belongs. I sincerely hope Sarah Maxwell gets that chance too, no matter how old she is before it presents itself. I guess I just wanted to say it's never too late.

Sorry for the overdone comment.

ETA missing parts of sentences..NellieBell can't work 14 hours and type coherently apparently ;)

[nokidsmom]

I think this situation is as fucked up as anyone else does, but I don't see Steve as evil. He's a victim of his own delusions just as much as anyone else in the house is. Yes, he *is* the problem. But he's not doing it to be mean. He genuinely thinks that this is the way God wants him to live. What I'm trying to say is that I don't ever see him "loosening up." It's not a preference or a choice for him. The best hope for his girls is an early death to Steve.

Totally agree that this is a truly messed up family situation and he's the cause, and it's causing harm in a lot of ways but yet, I don't think of him as evil either. He does think this is the right way to live. He's driven by his fears, of hell, of being unworthy, I dunno, but there's fear behind it all. And it's not just his own salvation he's worried about, he feels he needs to also see to the salvation of his family. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong at all.

Not all saying that he's doing to his family is OK, not by a long shot, but he's not evil. I guess I can understand it because I grew up in a family situation that's similar in some ways though not as a extreme. It was a cultlike family dynamic but my folks were convinced what they were doing was the right thing.

I hate to think that the best thing for a family is a death of controlling parent, but I have personally seen situations where that has been just the case.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Sarah and I are both 32 and we have a lot in common, like we both cleaned out ceiling fans today.

I've had great experiences and horrible experiences, but I wouldn't be who I am today without them. Who is Sarah, having never been allowed to experience anything? She doesn't even know what she likes or hates because she hasn't been allowed to try anything. And she lives in an environment where you aren't even allowed to express feelings. It's really sad.

[Palimpsest]

Totally agree that this is a truly messed up family situation and he's the cause, and it's causing harm in a lot of ways but yet, I don't think of him as evil either. He does think this is the right way to live. He's driven by his fears, of hell, of being unworthy, I dunno, but there's fear behind it all. And it's not just his own salvation he's worried about, he feels he needs to also see to the salvation of his family. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong at all.

Not all saying that he's doing to his family is OK, not by a long shot, but he's not evil. I guess I can understand it because I grew up in a family situation that's similar in some ways though not as a extreme. It was a cultlike family dynamic but my folks were convinced what they were doing was the right thing.

I hate to think that the best thing for a family is a death of controlling parent, but I have personally seen situations where that has been just the case.

I don't know whether Steve is evil or not. I don't know what irrational fears, paranoid thinking, need for control, or anger issues motivate him. I do think that what Steve is doing to his family, and not just Sarah, is truly evil -- whether he knows it or not. When Steve dies or becomes incapacitated it will be interesting to see what the family does. Will they try to live life as he wanted -- or will they break his rules, ease up on the control, let the kids go to real schools, get televisions and eat burritos with actual meat in them?

He comes over IRL as a very angry, very rigid, perfectionist, and that is just having met him briefly. As with so many of these Patriarchal asses, including Doug the Tool, I want to sit them down and ask them whether they really believe what they are spouting, or whether they have just found a lucrative marketing niche and are cynically exploiting it.

My guess is that Steve really does believe, and practices, a good part of what he preaches. Doug Phillips, not so much.

[sparkles]

I agree that Steve does think he's doing the absolute best for his family to ensure their place in heaven for all eternity and he feels compelled to guide others as well. And while I agree that he's probably not evil, he IS smug, contemptuous, prideful and deceitful, which is what makes him so easy to vilify. There is absolutely not a single speck of humility in anything he does or says, not a single act of "kindness" that doesn't have an agenda behind it. He is the opposite of selfless, as much as he likes to paint himself as a humble servant of Christ. Jesus may be the way to the father, but clearly the way to Jesus is through Steve. Arrogance, thy name is Steve Maxwell.

[singsingsing]

I think something is very wrong with Steve... like psychologically. He has a personality disorder or something that inhibits his ability to interact with people and society in a healthy way. Unfortunately he has convinced his family that he's basically a god, and they're caught in his gravitational pull, they can't escape. He is a sick individual and he's managed to drag his innocent family members down with him.

[thoughtful]

Just wanted to clarify what I said earlier -- it occurred to me that my post could be misinterpreted as being unsympathetic.

I didn't mean that nobody has reason to complain if their life is being held back in some way.

I do think Sarah's situation is about as bad as can be, due to her being so brainwashed that she may not even realize she could do things differently. Those of us who have the presence of mind to be afraid or dissatisfied are at least self-aware enough to want more.

But, if anyone read that "you are luckier" stuff with a judgmental tone, I just want to make sure they know that's not how it was meant.

I was a very late bloomer - in fact, a total wreck for a long time. I am very sympathetic to anyone who is not where they want to be in life. It breaks my heart to see people hurting because they are not free to do what they want, or comparing themselves to some imaginary standard of where they "should be" at any point in their lives.

Tom Lehrer had a wonderful line that helped put it all in perspective for me (yes, humor even enters into my most serious issues -- it helps!):

It's people like that who make you realize how little you've accomplished. It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age he had been dead for two years.

x-gRxhAV_vE

[nokidsmom]

I don't know whether Steve is evil or not. I don't know what irrational fears, paranoid thinking, need for control, or anger issues motivate him. I do think that what Steve is doing to his family, and not just Sarah, is truly evil -- whether he knows it or not. When Steve dies or becomes incapacitated it will be interesting to see what the family does. Will they try to live life as he wanted -- or will they break his rules, ease up on the control, let the kids go to real schools, get televisions and eat burritos with actual meat in them?

He comes over IRL as a very angry, very rigid, perfectionist, and that is just having met him briefly. As with so many of these Patriarchal asses, including Doug the Tool, I want to sit them down and ask them whether they really believe what they are spouting, or whether they have just found a lucrative marketing niche and are cynically exploiting it.

My guess is that Steve really does believe, and practices, a good part of what he preaches. Doug Phillips, not so much.

Always interested in hearing your views on Steve, Palimpsest, since you met him. And you are not the only one that has reported him as coming across as angry and rigid. I wonder that when he does these conferences, that he's being on guard all the time. He is bringing his very sheltered, protected family out there to mix with folks on the outside and probably needs to maintain constant vigilance.

And it does bring up a question. Even if he himself is not evil, given the harm he is doing to his family, even if he's convinced of the rightness of what he's doing, does that make any difference if he is or not? The family is still adversely impacted to the point of having their lives and future "hijacked" in a sense by their dad's beliefs and absolute control. This is still wrong even if not motivated by any true evil intent. I know my folks didn't mean to cause harm but in the end they did, to my sisters, their husbands, their families. It caused harm to me until I wised up and saw what my future would be if I didn't make a break for it.

Agree that it's no big suprise about Dougie. Never thought he really practiced what he preached, there was a fakeness about him. But Steve? No, he believes it and is dead serious.

[Boogalou]

I just never know what to say or think about Poor Sarah. On the one hand you could look at her life and, depending on how you frame it, say she's got a lot going for her. She has a close relationship with her parents and siblings, she is a fun, loving, and devoted aunt, she runs a somewhat popular blog, she enjoys photography as a hobby, she is (at least somewhat) a successful children's author, does home renovation, she has traveled all over the United States, and she takes a yearly (what some would call a) vacation to Colorado. Put like that, it looks she has a full, happy and successful life.

However, how much of that was really her choice? She has the relationships she has because there is no one else for her to have a relationship with, she does her "hobbies" because they promote the Titus2 "ministry", she travels because her parents tell her to, etc. Maybe she would have chosen all those things anyway, but maybe not. Sarah will never get to know if she enjoys those things because she enjoys or she enjoys them (but not too much or they would be an idol) or because she has nothing else.

It reminds me of one Gilmore Girls episode where Lorelei is wondering whether she likes the things she likes because she likes them or because her parents DON'T like them (just the opposite of Sarah).

Oh well. I hope Sarah is able to find some happiness in her life and find more in the future.

[argypargy]

I think something is very wrong with Steve... like psychologically. He has a personality disorder or something that inhibits his ability to interact with people and society in a healthy way. Unfortunately he has convinced his family that he's basically a god, and they're caught in his gravitational pull, they can't escape. He is a sick individual and he's managed to drag his innocent family members down with him.

I agree with this. I think something happened in Steve's past that has brought on this behavior. I know some have speculated that something happened while he was in the service. He is now over-compensating and controlling possibly due to guilt for his past actions?? I don't know. I'm certainly not a therapist.

As far as Sara goes, I just want to take her shopping and out to eat and let her get whatever she wants. I feel so bad for her. Her life is so drab. My life is not super exciting. On an average day I wake up, get my kiddo ready for preschool, drop him off, work 8-5, pick up kiddo from preschool, go to the gym, go home and hang out with my husband. I don't have a whole lot of friends, but I like it that way. I am kind of an intovert and am just as happy reading a book as I would be on a night out with friends. The difference here is that I can choose the way I live. No one is dictating what I can and cannot do. I was given the oppurtunity to do what I wanted with my life and I chose what I wanted. Sara will never, ever get to choose. So sad, considering she's a year younger than me.

[nokidsmom]

I agree with this. I think something happened in Steve's past that has brought on this behavior. I know some have speculated that something happened while he was in the service. He is now over-compensating and controlling possibly due to guilt for his past actions?? I don't know. I'm certainly not a therapist.

I think there's something to the idea that something happened in Steve's past. Whether it was during his service time, who knows, but it could be a distinct possibility.

I worked with a guy whose route to fundiedom was influenced by things he did while in the service. He said so, and was out to convert everyone every chance he got. Got the feeling he was making up for heaps of guilt.

[Palimpsest]

I think there's something to the idea that something happened in Steve's past. Whether it was during his service time, who knows, but it could be a distinct possibility.

I worked with a guy whose route to fundiedom was influenced by things he did while in the service. He said so, and was out to convert everyone every chance he got. Got the feeling he was making up for heaps of guilt.

It could be something dark and ugly in his service career creating guilt, or (I may be getting my Patriarchs confused) didn't Steve's parents divorce when he was a teen, thus his need for the perfect united family? Was he bullied as a child? Is he actually incredibly insecure, and masks that with arrogance, terseness, and avoiding people unless he is in a safe and controlled environment? He has bred his own family of believers in his infallibility, and has a hold over Teri because of her history of depression and past need to depend on him for everything.

I still think it a little strange (as we discussed in another thread) that he seems to have volunteered for the airforce at a time when the Vietnam war was incredibly unpopular in the US, and many of his contemporaries were afraid of being drafted, or actively trying to resist the draft. Vietnam vets were not well treated when they came home, and that could have contributed to Steve's distrust of people. It is hard to describe nowadays when people gush on about how they can support the troops not the war what the circumstances and attitudes were like then.

I've now called Steve arrogant, angry, controlling, with irrational fears and paranoid thinking, and possibly very insecure and fearful. We could armchair psychoanalyze Steve till the cows come home, but never know quite what goes on in his head!

I fall back on calling him a very nasty person.

[nokidsmom]

It could be something dark and ugly in his service career creating guilt, or (I may be getting my Patriarchs confused) didn't Steve's parents divorce when he was a teen, thus his need for the perfect united family? Was he bullied as a child? Is he actually incredibly insecure, and masks that with arrogance, terseness, and avoiding people unless he is in a safe and controlled environment? He has bred his own family of believers in his infallibility, and has a hold over Teri because of her history of depression and past need to depend on him for everything.

I still think it a little strange (as we discussed in another thread) that he seems to have volunteered for the airforce at a time when the Vietnam war was incredibly unpopular in the US, and many of his contemporaries were afraid of being drafted, or actively trying to resist the draft. Vietnam vets were not well treated when they came home, and that could have contributed to Steve's distrust of people. It is hard to describe nowadays when people gush on about how they can support the troops not the war what the circumstances and attitudes were like then.

I've now called Steve arrogant, angry, controlling, with irrational fears and paranoid thinking, and possibly very insecure and fearful. We could armchair psychoanalyze Steve till the cows come home, but never know quite what goes on in his head!

I fall back on calling him a very nasty person.

IIRC, his parents did divorce when he was a teenager.

Agreed that there's no way to know what's going on in his head as only a therapist could diagnose him in person (like that's going to happen!) but there's definitely something wrong there. And it's interesting to point out that he seems to have volunteered for service at a time when the war was not popular.

[YPestis]

I believe Steve is a true believer. No one would drain so much out of life unless they actually believed what they taught! People like Dougie is more of a charlatan. They preach their lifestyle because it makes money, and then they quietly live the life they want.

As for Sarah's life.....I think the only thing she has going for her are her books, which seem to have found a niche in the fundie children's book circuit. But even that is due to her family's name. I doubt she'd be able to launch it by herself. Her life otherwise consists of cleaning and working on the family's ministry and.....more cleaning. She goes on the same vacations with her family year after year. She gets to travel to small towns and occasionally glimpse a unique spot here and there. It's not exactly how most young people imagine doing. Sarah has not experienced going out with friends, traveling to Vegas or NYC, or just lounging around all day. To me, that's the tragedy. She has the chance to do so many things, to experience life in so many ways, but her parents made sure she never gets to. It's like living in purdah in America. It makes marriage to a fundie man a liberation of sorts. At least then, Sarah may actually meet friends not related to her, and maybe have some free time to have f-u-n. Who would have thought there is a life worse than patriarchy marriage to a fundie man?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I wonder what Sarah is really like. There must be more to her than the generic fundie girl personality described by her family. What are her real hopes and dreams, not the ones dictated to her by her parents. What does she see herself doing in 10 years time...and what does she wish she could be in 10 years time? What does she like doing, and what hobbies and skills would she work on if she got the chance? If she had no schedule and more free time, what would she do with that free time? What books would she enjoy, and what music would she like? If she could choose to date, what type of person would she go for, and how many kids would she want to have? Where does she want to travel to, and what experiences does she want to have? What are her real opinions on social/moral issues, and if she heard the other side to the story, would she change that opinion? Does she ever wish she had a friend to talk to, or wish she could ask her dad if she could get to know any of the men she sees at the conferences they do? What does she think about each day?

Sarah hasn't been allowed to have a personality. She writes most of the blog posts, but we barely know a thing about her.