Happy 32nd Birthday, Sarah Maxwell!

[WonderingInWA]

I wonder what Sarah is really like. There must be more to her than the generic fundie girl personality described by her family. What are her real hopes and dreams, not the ones dictated to her by her parents. What does she see herself doing in 10 years time...and what does she wish she could be in 10 years time? What does she like doing, and what hobbies and skills would she work on if she got the chance? If she had no schedule and more free time, what would she do with that free time? What books would she enjoy, and what music would she like? If she could choose to date, what type of person would she go for, and how many kids would she want to have? Where does she want to travel to, and what experiences does she want to have? What are her real opinions on social/moral issues, and if she heard the other side to the story, would she change that opinion? Does she ever wish she had a friend to talk to, or wish she could ask her dad if she could get to know any of the men she sees at the conferences they do? What does she think about each day?

Sarah hasn't been allowed to have a personality. She writes most of the blog posts, but we barely know a thing about her.

I don't think Sarah thinks. I think she just says what she's programmed to say. She has no depth of person. Empty shell except for all her Jesus speak.

[Joan of Snarc]

However, how much of that was really her choice? She has the relationships she has because there is no one else for her to have a relationship with, she does her "hobbies" because they promote the Titus2 "ministry", she travels because her parents tell her to, etc. Maybe she would have chosen all those things anyway, but maybe not. Sarah will never get to know if she enjoys those things because she enjoys or she enjoys them (but not too much or they would be an idol) or because she has nothing else.

It reminds me of one Gilmore Girls episode where Lorelei is wondering whether she likes the things she likes because she likes them or because her parents DON'T like them (just the opposite of Sarah).

Oh well. I hope Sarah is able to find some happiness in her life and find more in the future.

OMG did you ever hit the nail on the head. Poor Sarah needs to eat a Pop-Tart and figure out if she likes it or not:

ewPLtcQV1rg

It occurs to me that the lives of Lorelai Gilmore and Poor Sarah are 180-degree opposites. Lorelai spent her life making her own decisions independent of her parents and the life they wanted for her, and living with the fallout -- good and bad. Poor Sarah spends her entire life living within the parameters and confines Daddy has set for her -- and never tasting the freedom of a little rebellion. Or a Pop-Tart.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to do a Gilmore-style girls night with Poor Sarah complete with loads of junk food and cheesy movies? She would be so confused.... But when do we pray? Shouldn't we be contemplating death instead of eating Twizzlers and watching Pippi Longstocking?

:lol:

I miss Gilmore Girls. Poor Sarah is depressing.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think if Sarah was given the opportunity to do something fun, she would be terrified and run back crying to Steve. He has broken her that much that she would worry that even the presence of fun would send her to Hell. Sad thing is, she doesn't know how to live.

[Jana814]

I think if Sarah was given the opportunity to do something fun, she would be terrified and run back crying to Steve. He has broken her that much that she would worry that even the presence of fun would send her to Hell. Sad thing is, she doesn't know how to live.

I agree!!

[snarkyjan]

I think something is very wrong with Steve... like psychologically. He has a personality disorder or something that inhibits his ability to interact with people and society in a healthy way. Unfortunately he has convinced his family that he's basically a god, and they're caught in his gravitational pull, they can't escape. He is a sick individual and he's managed to drag his innocent family members down with him.

Now we know-he's a human tractor beam.

I think that even if Steve did the decent thing by shuffling off his mortal coil while his family still had some of their youth left, he's hobbled them for so long that it would take years for them to shake off his influence.

Of all the fundy patriarses we snark on here, he is truly the most toxic. Even Jim Bob Duggar and Geoff Botkin are pikers compared with him.

[treemom]

Having met him and looked into his eyes, I respectfully disagree on the "he isn't evil front"

[singsingsing]

Seriously. I've been called out here before for occasionally defending certain fundies or taking exception to particularly vile characterizations, but Steve is one who really freaks me out. Is he pure evil? Maybe not. But I have no problem believing that he's a sociopath whose obsession with control (because the obsession with death and hell is really about CONTROLLING what happens to him) always, always takes precedence over the well-being of his family. When treemom and the others who confronted him talked about what they saw when they looked into his eyes, I thought, "Yep." That man is not normal, in the worst possible way.

[Ellimenopy]

Seriously. I've been called out here before for occasionally defending certain fundies or taking exception to particularly vile characterizations, but Steve is one who really freaks me out. Is he pure evil? Maybe not. But I have no problem believing that he's a sociopath whose obsession with control (because the obsession with death and hell is really about CONTROLLING what happens to him) always, always takes precedence over the well-being of his family. When treemom and the others who confronted him talked about what they saw when they looked into his eyes, I thought, "Yep." That man is not normal, in the worst possible way.

Oh, I agree! That was my point, really. I was trying, in a roundabout way, to point out that he's a true believer and therefore completely controlling and inflexible. He's not going to "lighten up," or change, just because his lifestyle isn't working out for his daughters. He's not like, say, Kelly Bates. I don't see Kelly ever changing her beliefs, but I can see her kind of glossing over apostasy in order keep the peace and see her grandchildren, and will chalk up the disagreements to "the Lord leading them in a different direction." Steve can't do that. He is a stone cold mofo - and I'm not using it as a compliment like I usually do. I can't tell *what's* wrong with him, but there is certainly something *wrong* with him, where he's making up his own theology. I still find the Bates offensive, but I tend to think of them as ordinary people who got sucked into bad theology and followed it to its obnoxious conclusions, rather than actually dangerous. Steve is not going to let his girls "date with a purpose," or wear heels, or marry people that they meet at fast food joints. For Steve life is srs bizness. Now that I think about it, I'm scared that Steve would go murder-suicide on his family. He's certainly got the right profile for it.

[lilith]

Oh, I agree! That was my point, really. I was trying, in a roundabout way, to point out that he's a true believer and therefore completely controlling and inflexible. He's not going to "lighten up," or change, just because his lifestyle isn't working out for his daughters. He's not like, say, Kelly Bates. I don't see Kelly ever changing her beliefs, but I can see her kind of glossing over apostasy in order keep the peace and see her grandchildren, and will chalk up the disagreements to "the Lord leading them in a different direction." Steve can't do that. He is a stone cold mofo - and I'm not using it as a compliment like I usually do. I can't tell *what's* wrong with him, but there is certainly something *wrong* with him, where he's making up his own theology. I still find the Bates offensive, but I tend to think of them as ordinary people who got sucked into bad theology and followed it to its obnoxious conclusions, rather than actually dangerous. Steve is not going to let his girls "date with a purpose," or wear heels, or marry people that they meet at fast food joints. For Steve life is srs bizness. Now that I think about it, I'm scared that Steve would go murder-suicide on his family. He's certainly got the right profile for it.

Steve seems to turn a blind eye to Nathan attending a gym and to Nathan and Melanie socialising with Melanie's less restrictive family. Melanie even cuts her hair, which seems to be forbidden for Maxhell women.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Theres something really off about Steve. He gives off an aura of creepiness and evil, and just seems somehow wrong. I think he is a psychopath of some sort. The whole family just really creeps me out, but the other family members just seem brainwashed, like theyre completely devoid of souls because Steve stole them. If you just met one of the "kids" you might think that they have some sort of learning disability that explains how childlike and dependent on their parents they are, or their lack of social skills and weird, stiff, childlike writing style...but all of them together, all being exactly the same and thinking exactly the same, and being so different, theres something off about that, like they all have one brain or are just robots.

[VincentvanGoGo]

I love Gilmore Girls.

+ I own all the DVD's.

[Boogalou]

I love Gilmore Girls.

+ I own all the DVD's.

ME TOO!!! <3

[Palimpsest]

Having met him and looked into his eyes, I respectfully disagree on the "he isn't evil front"

Singsingsing

Seriously. I've been called out here before for occasionally defending certain fundies or taking exception to particularly vile characterizations, but Steve is one who really freaks me out. Is he pure evil? Maybe not. But I have no problem believing that he's a sociopath whose obsession with control (because the obsession with death and hell is really about CONTROLLING what happens to him) always, always takes precedence over the well-being of his family. When treemom and the others who confronted him talked about what they saw when they looked into his eyes, I thought, "Yep." That man is not normal, in the worst possible way.

I think the last time we discussed this Treemom mentioned Charles Manson's eyes . . .

For some reason I balk at calling people evil. I call behaviors evil. OTOH, Mr P and I discussed possible sociopathy re. Steve. Mr P observed him in action for an hour in full fanatic mode. I just shook hands with him and got royally creeped out. On my personal "creepiness" measure, he scored about a 6 on a scale of 1 - 10.

To put my creepiness scale into context, I've only ever met one person who made it to a 10, even after quite a few years working in adult protective services. Many years ago I met a man briefly. Cold chills. He was visiting his girlfriend who lived in my dorm at the time. She dropped out of college within a few weeks due to mental health issues but married him three years later. His killing spree didn't start until after the marriage. About eight years after I shook his hand this man was convicted of murdering 13 women and assault/attempted murder of 7 others. Not including his wife who apparently still visits him in prison. When he was arrested I recognised his face from that one brief meeting. He was remarkably memorable for the creepiness factor and, IMO, is a full-blown sociopath.

Of course, not all sociopaths are violent, serial murderers or mass murderers. Some are comparatively low key and only destroy emotionally the people closest to them.

If we define a sociopath is someone with no conscience and zero empathy, is Steve a sociopath? Mr P thought that Steve does have a conscience and does believe in what he is saying to a large degree. I think there is something very, very, wrong with him, and base that on his apparently pathological need to control his family and (IMO) irrational and paranoid fears of the outside world, rather than on his religious rantings about DEATH, weird as they may be.

I do want to point one other thing out. Some people have said that Steve lacks social skills. I disagree. Steve has very good social skills, when he wants to use them. But then, sociopaths can be very charming if they see the need. His terseness in the comments are more reflective of not seeing a need to be charming to a sheeple who dares to comment. They are already in his flock, so why bother?

[treemom]

I agree with you palmpiset, I just found the but he doesn't mean to be bad thing boggling. I think he very much means to be a controlling, dictator.

[FloraKitty35]

I agree!!

It would take them all years of therapy sessions (with a properly qualified therapist) to overcome all of that mental trauma.

[sparkles]

When I think about "evil," I think of someone who willfully, joyfully, selfishly causes harm even though they know it's wrong. In fact, they take pleasure in the fact that it's wrong. I know it's a very narrow definition and that if I were to stick by it, I couldn't even consider someone like Hitler to be evil, because he thought he was 100% in the right and doing mankind a service by ridding the world of some very bad people. I also know that there are few people who would fit my definition but there you have it (Charlie Manson, for example? Evil to the core. This is a man who delights in bending people to his will and in causing harm and destruction. He KNOWS he's one sick fuck and he gets off on it.) So for me though, Steve isn't evil. Twisted, cold, delusional, controlling, dictatorial, yes. He does get off on the power he holds. And I think he's WRONG WRONG WRONG and that he's done irreparable damage to his family and to those who try to follow him (although I don't think may of them succeed because he's just so out there that it's just not realistic). He very much means to be that controlling dictator but he does it because he thinks he's right, that he can save the world if only people would follow him, that he's doing god's work here on earth. Whatever led him to this point, he believes 100% in what he's doing and that to me, makes him NOT evil. Fortunately, I do think the cult will die with him--hopefully just figuratively and not literally although I can see a Heaven's Gate scenario . I don't think things will go completely flooey to the extent that the family throws off all of his teachings right there and then, but just loosening up a bit with the current generation, and more and more with each successive generation.

ETA: I do sometimes call people evil when they don't necessarily meet my strict definition, only because I can't think of another good descriptor and it's an easy grab.

[FloraKitty35]

Steve Maxwell would still be an evil controlling tool, even without having religion as a excuse to use if anyone dared to defy him in any way.

[nausicaa]

Wow, I just realized that Sarah Maxwell is the same age as Lorelei Gilmore in the first season of Gilmore Girls.

[Joan of Snarc]

^ Eat the Pop-Tart, Sarah! Eat it!!!1!!!!111!!

Followed by the Twizzlers, the mallow-whatever-those-things-were, the pizza, the tacos, the popcorn, the soda, the COFFEE, the cheeseburgers, the doughnuts, the muffins, the pancakes, the pudding, the M&Ms, the chili cheese fries, the cheese puffs.... whew! I'm on junk food overload just typing it all.

[Palimpsest]

Perhaps I resist using the word "evil" because to me it has religious connotations?

I think a normal response from non-sociopaths (those of us who have consciences and varying degrees of empathy) to sociopaths is to try to find mitigating circumstances because we can't quite believe that anyone can have that degree of deliberate "evil?" So with the nasty Steve Maxwells of this world we discuss a broken home, possible PTSD/survivors guilt/repentance after perhaps patronizing half the sex workers in Bankok during his service career, and so on, to try to explain his ugly behaviors.

From what I have read (no experience at all in forensic psychology!) the experts are still trying to decide whether sociopaths have inate neurological dysfunction. In other words, are they just born that way or can sociopathy be created in an individual by adverse circumstance?

I wonder how Gothard and Geoff Botkin, et al, would measure on the creepiness/sociopathic scale. I think possibly higher than Steve but I don't know. The first generation of sicko Patriarchs facinates me. Doug Phillips is almost second generation because of his father, but I'd say sociopath there too.

This book has been mentioned here before: The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout. I tend to believe her statistics -- It is more common that we think, not just the Hitlers, Idi Amins, Mansons, Dahmers, Sutcliffes, and others who hit the headlines.

Argh, I'm just rambling here. Sorry.

Back to Poor Sarah!

[NellieBell]

I look at Steve as a sociopathic master manipulator. Turn on the charm when necessary out in public and then as soon as the bus door closes behind them, talk about how all of the people who just bought their merchandise is going to hell. I think he's evil and there will be no change of course for him or his hostages. He will walk the walk and talk the talk until he gives up the ghost. And oh how I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Mel takes her girls to visit her family. It wouldn't surprise me if Steve went absolutely psycho alone in a room. Maybe that's what he does at Joseph's house.

[nokidsmom]

When I think about "evil," I think of someone who willfully, joyfully, selfishly causes harm even though they know it's wrong. In fact, they take pleasure in the fact that it's wrong. I know it's a very narrow definition and that if I were to stick by it, I couldn't even consider someone like Hitler to be evil, because he thought he was 100% in the right and doing mankind a service by ridding the world of some very bad people. I also know that there are few people who would fit my definition but there you have it (Charlie Manson, for example? Evil to the core. This is a man who delights in bending people to his will and in causing harm and destruction. He KNOWS he's one sick fuck and he gets off on it.) So for me though, Steve isn't evil. Twisted, cold, delusional, controlling, dictatorial, yes. He does get off on the power he holds. And I think he's WRONG WRONG WRONG and that he's done irreparable damage to his family and to those who try to follow him (although I don't think may of them succeed because he's just so out there that it's just not realistic). He very much means to be that controlling dictator but he does it because he thinks he's right, that he can save the world if only people would follow him, that he's doing god's work here on earth. Whatever led him to this point, he believes 100% in what he's doing and that to me, makes him NOT evil. Fortunately, I do think the cult will die with him--hopefully just figuratively and not literally although I can see a Heaven's Gate scenario . I don't think things will go completely flooey to the extent that the family throws off all of his teachings right there and then, but just loosening up a bit with the current generation, and more and more with each successive generation.

ETA: I do sometimes call people evil when they don't necessarily meet my strict definition, only because I can't think of another good descriptor and it's an easy grab.

This is what I meant when I posted upthread that Steve is not evil though sparkles said it better than I did. Yes, it's a pretty narrow definition and I did think of Hitler as someone who would not fit that particular definition and someone like Manson who would. Steve is very aware of all he's doing but he's convinced it's right, it's salvation, it's his duty to make sure he and his family avoid hell and not be tempted by anything on the outside. He doesn't see sheltering his family to extremes as harmful and he doesn't see being a jerk to people responding to the blog, attending conferences, etc. who might question and disagree with him as being rude and a jerk.

I agree that the family will not throw off all his teachings all at once following his passing, but I think it might happen little by little with some of them and others will hold on to them. Particularly Teri, assuming she survives him, and any unmarried kids at home which I see likely, might loosen up without thinking because they won't have Steve around to worry about and please. Nathan already doesn't follow everything but Christopher will be Steve Jr. in his household.

[WonderingInWA]

I look at Steve as a sociopathic master manipulator. Turn on the charm when necessary out in public and then as soon as the bus door closes behind them, talk about how all of the people who just bought their merchandise is going to hell. I think he's evil and there will be no change of course for him or his hostages. He will walk the walk and talk the talk until he gives up the ghost. And oh how I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Mel takes her girls to visit her family. It wouldn't surprise me if Steve went absolutely psycho alone in a room. Maybe that's what he does at Joseph's house.

As much as it might seem out of character for him, I bet Steve doesn't actually go psycho over Nathan's relationship with Melanie's family. Their marriage was supported by Steve back when he wasn't as psycho as he is now, and N and M have built their family around the combination of both his and her families. He probably doesn't ever socialize with her family, but probably doesn't really condemn Nathan for doing it. He has said before that once his children are married, their lives are their own (something to that effect), so I think (this might be generous) he respects Nathan for the choices he makes for his own family.

He is fortunate that NR-Anna's family lives so far away. I'm sure he still has a lot of influence over Christopher, though not directly and under the same roof anymore.

[NellieBell]

I tried to reply to your comment Wondering. I don't know if it's going to go through or if I deleted it on accident. Anyway, I didn't mean that Steve would be upset with Nathan's relationship with Mel's family. I believe it kills him that he cannot control his granddaughters and who has access to them.

I'll wait and see if my full reply show up, if not - I'll repost the full text.

[WonderingInWA]

I tried to reply to your comment Wondering. I don't know if it's going to go through or if I deleted it on accident. Anyway, I didn't mean that Steve would be upset with Nathan's relationship with Mel's family. I believe it kills him that he cannot control his granddaughters and who has access to them.

I'll wait and see if my full reply show up, if not - I'll repost the full text.

Well, he is a control freak but I think Nathan is lucky that he was the first to get out of the house so he had the freedom to marry a girl who had parents without exactly the same beliefs. But he certainly learned his lesson -- he made dang sure he didn't make the same mistake with Christopher. NR-Anna's parents are waaaayyy far away so there is no interference there.