Jahi McMath case in California

[Firiel]

Hugs to all of you who have lost someone.

I've had discussions with my parents about their wishes and my hubby and kids about our own wishes should something horrible happen.

My awesome grandad was in his 80s and suffered several debilitating heart attacks. After they revived him in hospital for the umpteenth time he mustered up his strength and cursed them with every colourful Cockney insult he could remember and demanded they take their bleedin' hands off him and Let. Him. Die. And they did. Good on him.

My great-uncle had a sudden stroke. While they managed to save his life, he was incubated and non-responsive. The doctors actually said that it was possible that he could wake up. But he was over 80, and he had lived a great life. He was mobile, healthy, and coherent up till the time of his stroke. His family decided that they didn't want to play the waiting game and knew that he would rather die with a full life behind him instead of living out a few more years in agony. So they took him off life support.

This is a family of conservative pastors, by the way. The are anti-abortion, almost certainly anti-euthanasia. They just also have a decent helping of something called "reason." Pro-life groups are just getting more and more ridiculous. I can't even imagine thinking that there is something immoral about taking a brain dead person off life support. My mom couldn't believe that some people are against abortion, even if the mother is in danger.

[Antigone]

Severus and I have discussed what happens "just in case". It was a hard conversation to have, but I am glad we have gone through the process, since my grandma just died from cancer, and it was hard for me to watch her die. Even if I wasn't there in person I would get constant "updates". I would not wish that on anyone, and I am glad that there are now laws in place to help reduce someone's suffering and a way to allow others to die with dignity. Our daughter isn't old enough to be fully aware of what a DNR is, or any other related issues, but she knows the importance of someone living a full life of happiness vs someone living a few more years stuck in pain (it helped a little it was just a pet instead of a grandparent, but it was still a painful lesson).

[DGayle]

The US is so stuck on bragging about longer lives that quality doesn't matter. What good is 75, 85, 90 years or more, if all of it sucks? I'd rather have a short life that was enjoyable. Why does quantity matter more than quality?

Melon, I'm so sorry about your son, and wish Jahi's mother would get back to reality. She's dragging a bunch of kids through this with her.

[Peas n carrots]

The US is so stuck on bragging about longer lives that quality doesn't matter. What good is 75, 85, 90 years or more, if all of it sucks? I'd rather have a short life that was enjoyable. Why does quantity matter more than quality?

Melon, I'm so sorry about your son, and wish Jahi's mother would get back to reality. She's dragging a bunch of kids through this with her.

Quantity over quality...that's the American way! :(

[moodygirl86]

Quantity over quality...that's the American way! :(

It's the same all over the Western world really. You can't go into the newsagent without the magazines on the rack screaming: EAT THIS! DON'T DRINK THAT! DIETS FOR A LONGER LIFE! But I'd personally rather die younger knowing I lived life to the full than dragging it out depriving myself of stuff.

When I worked at the council, one of our tenants was this old dear - 100 years old in fact - and every phone call required extreme patience as she was blind and had lost most of her hearing too. She also used to get very upset and agitated until she was sure we had heard her. I used to wonder how it must feel to be her. Pretty scary, I should think. I don't know if her sight/hearing had worn away with age, or if she'd lost it through illness, but if the latter I think I'd want to be allowed to die. I hope I'm never in the position where I have to decide.

[scc12]

Yes it's called outliving your health!

And I agree about the western world...the bigger the burger...

[Mitz_]

Well, fifty years ago it was standard accepted practice to keep a person alive no matter what. That's just the way it was. Then the "quality of life" issue started being discussed a lot and people came to realize that just because you can doesn't mean you should and end of life care began to be handled differently. People started to demand it because they didn't want to end up...well, like Jahi.

It seems like the generation that is in their 70's and up struggle with that concept more than those of us who are younger and you will still see some 80 year old Alzheimer's patients being tube fed and such in nursing homes. I think those numbers will get smaller as the population ages, it just isn't accepted by most people anymore.

It's been almost 8 months, I keep wondering who is paying for the Jahi Mcmath fiasco. I hope it's not me.

[browncoatslytherin]

i remember feeling very sad for this family when the news first broke. to lose a loved one after something that seemed so routine (my brother lost his husband during a routine surgery) is tragic. but for the family to be so adamant that she is alive even though she is brain dead was also sad. they will not be able to truly move on until they accept that she is dead, and by forcing maintainance onto her body, that will not happen any time soon. as someone in the medical field, i understand the position of the hospital and the doctors, and especially working at a children's hospital, i've seen many truly tragic things. it hurts my heart every time. but i also know that prolonging the whole grieving process is the worst thing you can do, and the fact that a facility accepted jahi's body is just beyond belief for me. it kinda makes me think that either (a) they had no real idea of what was going on or (b) they aren't really such a reputable medical facility as they say they are.

just my two cents on it.

[DGayle]

There were reports that ended up being false about her going home and going back to school, complete with school supply drives for her.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts ... g-home-are

She's also reportedly in a Catholic hospital in New Jersey, where her deluded family's deluded attorney says she's improved so much that she may be able to come out of the ICU. Since New Jersey is one of the few states that allows families to reject brain death as a diagnosis, since they say she's alive, the taxpayers are probably funding this.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/0 ... her-dolan/

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci ... new-jersey

I hate to think of how much money has been diverted from living people who need medical help to keep this girl "alive."

[bionicmlle]

There were reports that ended up being false about her going home and going back to school, complete with school supply drives for her.

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts ... g-home-are

She's also reportedly in a Catholic hospital in New Jersey, where her deluded family's deluded attorney says she's improved so much that she may be able to come out of the ICU. Since New Jersey is one of the few states that allows families to reject brain death as a diagnosis, since they say she's alive, the taxpayers are probably funding this.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/0 ... her-dolan/

http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci ... new-jersey

I hate to think of how much money has been diverted from living people who need medical help to keep this girl "alive."

I have no clue how this all is being funded and that matters little when compared to using up the bed space for a critically injured/ill child who may actually get better.

[gustava]

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/1 ... red-alive/

Dreadfully sad.

[browncoatslytherin]

i feel sorry for this family. holding on to their daughter's body, force feeding it, and trying to insist she's alive is doing far more harm than good for them. as tragic as the situation is, they need to let her go. the grieving process is held up when the body is still being medically sustained and is there for you to touch and feel and convince yourself that she's still alive.

i wonder who these "brain death experts" are that they are planning on getting to testify? their credentials and such. have they actually examined her? conducted tests?

i did have an eye roll moment when the article said something about her condition from brain death "improving". yeah...you don't improve from death. not this kind of death. this isn't a "near death experience" situation, this is brain death. once the brain is dead, there is no going back.

[Firiel]

Crazy... I was literally just thinking about this case yesterday. I even Googled it to see if any new information had come out about three hours before this article was posted.

Must have been the prompting of God. :shrug:

[Mitz_]

Ah, private funding must have finally dried up. This article says they want her moved back to California:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ro ... 795112.php

That kid sure does travel a lot for someone with a death certificate.

Let's hope the court stands firm because a ruling in this bazaar family's favor would set a terrible precedence and allow families of legally dead patients to suck what's left of the life out of the medical system in the U.S..

[browncoatslytherin]

Ah, private funding must have finally dried up. This article says they want her moved back to California:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/matier-ro ... 795112.php

That kid sure does travel a lot for someone with a death certificate.

Let's hope the court stands firm because a ruling in this bazaar family's favor would set a terrible precedence and allow families of legally dead patients to suck what's left of the life out of the medical system in the U.S..

qft. it may sound cold to her family, but just think of all the diverted resources going to sustaining a dead body that could go to patients who are alive and who truly need help but are being sidelined because of this. though, by this point they are so deluded, i think even if they were presented with families of children who really do need help who aren't able to get everything they need because of lack of resources, they still wouldn't relent. which is sad that (1) they are that delusional and (2) that there are people out there supporting that delusion. the people supporting it are just piggybacking off of them and using their grief for some sort of gain on their part.

[moodygirl86]

How the sweet fuck is this STILL being allowed to happen? It's 10 months. Insane.

[Toothfairy]

Almost a year has gone by and they still haven't buried her? Or came to realization that's she gone and never coming back

[Coco]

How can this have gone on this long? What is the state of her remains? Surely if things were getting pretty terrible the family would come to see the truth? Maybe it's not as bad as we imagine. How does a body in stasis take care of cell turnover? muscles in atrophy due to lack of oxygen circulation? ...and other questions too disturbing to contemplate. Is the body getting transfusions and dialysis and catheters? i just don't understand. At this point it's almost a clinical trial. But if it was terrible wouldn't the doctors overseeing the care say time is up?

/end limited medical understanding.

[Mitz_]

How can this have gone on this long? What is the state of her remains? Surely if things were getting pretty terrible the family would come to see the truth? Maybe it's not as bad as we imagine. How does a body in stasis take care of cell turnover? muscles in atrophy due to lack of oxygen circulation? ...and other questions too disturbing to contemplate. Is the body getting transfusions and dialysis and catheters? i just don't understand. At this point it's almost a clinical trial. But if it was terrible wouldn't the doctors overseeing the care say time is up?

/end limited medical understanding.

Well, medical technology has certainly succeeded to blur the lines between life and death , hasn't it?

We haven't been told enough about Jahi's condition to know anything much except that her body has not responded in the manner expected after blood flow to the brain stops and "brain death" occurs. It is unusual, I suppose, but I don't see how they are claiming that this is a recovery or anything approaching it since she is not only unconscious but unable to take a breath independently of the ventilator. Her life, or at least her body, is being unnaturally sustained but it does seem that her body is certainly not in stasis and not in a state of decay. It's pretty obvious that there is some brain activity in there somewhere but opinions are varying on whether or not that in itself constitutes a life. I don't think it does but I can't think of her as dead until they take her off of that machine either. She certainly wouldn't be alive without it and I think that the brain death ruling should stand in this case. I will be very surprised if that goon of a lawyer and any of his "experts" present anything significant.

I read in one of the articles that they are claiming she has started menstruating and going through puberty since her her diagnosis but judging from photographs taken before she went into the hospital that ship had already sailed. She was 13 years old and, ya know...developing. They are going to try to prove that Jahi responds to her mother's voice with photo and video evidence. This should be interesting, I sure hope we get to see the evidence in the case.

I don't think this family is really interested in the truth about her condition, that's why they moved her to New Jersey, isn't it? New Jersey has a unique law that allows people to keep their brain dead family member on life support for ...I don't know ...as long as they last or something like that.

[bionicmlle]

Well there certainly have been cases of bodies being maintained for quite some time after criteria for brain death have been met. As discussed in detail previously in this thread, oxygen and nutrients are still being circulated to the tissues.... except her brain. It will be interesting to see what information they plan to present at the press conference tomorrow. I am sure they will present some EEG data from her brain stem perhaps but a full EEG would not be normal nor show activity from both hemispheres of her brain. I think it will be a dog-and-pony show to attempt to garner sympathy from the lay public - manipulative and disgusting, IMHO.

[16strong]

This is turning into the XGG DD eleventy-month baby situation. Basically, how long can this farce go on? I suppose if we've learned anything from the Deedster, it's that the universe goes out not with a bang, but with a whimper. Perhaps Jahi's mom will claim that some doctor was falsely telling her that Jahi had brain activity, and then she'll "attempt" to sue, knowing full well she'll promptly get shut down. Or maybe she'll quietly bury that poor soul and not tell anyone. I wonder what has provoked her to run screaming about her daughter having brain activity (she swears! :roll: )?

[Haligh the Liar]

I just read this article: http://news.yahoo.com/girls-family-seeks-reversal-brain-death-ruling-195714462.html and was astonished at the credence given to a "brain expert" CEO, who is not addressed as Dr at any point in the article. Sure, it's Yahoo, and could journalistic error, but I suspect if he were in fact an MD or PhD researcher in neurology, her family would shout it from the rooftops.

I can't wrap my mind around the condition of her body, if her brain isn't intact. From what I understand, cell maintenance and other systems require brain signals to prompt activity, so without her brain, how are things functioning? Is blood flow enough to prevent decay?

[PokaDot]

Yeah, I just read the yahoo article too. It said that her brain didn't liquify and that there is bloodflow to it?

Is that in contradiction to previous news stories, or did her body adapt and grow a new blood supply to the brain.

[Mitz_]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/breakin ... ays-proves

No actual video but there is a photo they claim is from October. The videos by description sound ridiculous and don't prove any awareness or consciousness. There must be some blood flow to the brain though.

These people are so awful, just so,so awful.

[browncoatslytherin]

even if her brain stem is somehow mostly intact, that doesn't really mean much. that basically would render her to a state similar to babies that have anencephaly, a fatal birth defect in which the majority of the brain does not develop.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/anencephaly.html

(not breaking, cuz it's the cdc)