Nelson Mandela, dead at 95

[DifferentGurl]

Was that an a Beka book?

The 1986 edition of World History asserted that Apartheid was good for South Africa, only objected to by some "human rights" (quotes theirs) activists, and dismantling it would result in violence. bloodshed, and all of Africa aligning with the USSR. Even worse, it called South Africa (circa 1986!) a "bastion of democracy at the tip of Africa".

I was given this book to teach out of in 1997. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at that.

I got the 1990s edition of it I think. It mentioned Bill Clinton as being bad for promoting homosexuality and abortion.

[crazyforkate]

I find it interesting that Sarah Palin still carries on about Andrew Breitbart, but hasn't said a peep about Mandela. Guess she's finally given up on having anything more than niche appeal.

[SPHASH]

I find it interesting that Sarah Palin still carries on about Andrew Breitbart, but hasn't said a peep about Mandela. Guess she's finally given up on having anything more than niche appeal.

I hope she doesn't. It was bad enough she made MLK Jr and the 50th anniversary of JFK's death all about her.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I hope she doesn't. It was bad enough she made MLK Jr and the 50th anniversary of JFK's death all about her.

This. Sarah would probably screech from her Facebook page that being called "Caribou Barbie" is the same as Mandela being imprisoned for 27 years. She's such a narcissistic twat.

On-topic: For the most part, I found Nelson Mandela quite inspiring. Was he flawed human being? Of course, but I truly believe he cared deeply about South Africa and wanted to improve things for everyone. He will be missed.

[SPHASH]

This. Sarah would probably screech from her Facebook page that being called "Caribou Barbie" is the same as Mandela being imprisoned for 27 years. She's such a narcissistic twat.

On-topic: For the most part, I found Nelson Mandela quite inspiring. Was he flawed human being? Of course, but I truly believe he cared deeply about South Africa and wanted to improve things for everyone. He will be missed.

Exactly! Like Mandela FDR wasn't perfect either (cheated on Eleanor, tried to pack the Supreme Court) but he cared about the common man. Same goes for MLK Jr, JFK, and Lincoln.

[roddma]

Ghees do the ABeka books ever say anything good about anyone? ANyhow, RIP Mandela

[debrand]

One of my FB friends is complaining about Obama having the flag lowered for Mandela but not our fallen troops. Geesh!

We've been at war for over ten years. Ask your friend if they would like the flag to have remained at half mast that entire time. Chances are people would have complained that both Bush and Obama were trying to derail the public's support for war by reminding everyone of how many soldiers die. Also, soldiers are not usually public figure. The same question could be asked about policeman and firefighters who die during both war and peacetime. Why lower the flag for an important public person when a firefighter might have died fighting a blaze somewhere? I honestly don't think that your friend is upset that the flag is lowered though. My guess is she is either upset with Obama or Mandela. I have a couple of racist family members who try to hide their dislike of Obama's skin color behind similar remarks.

[debrand]

RIP Mandela. He had a full and good life. I was pleased to see that many of my students, even young, knew who he was and were sad for his death. There is always hope.

A little off topic, but whenever I hear about a topic related to Africa, it reminds me how I know so little about the continent. Apartheid and Mandela, history of decolonization, Monomotapa, slavery, the kingdom of Oyo, but that's all, and it makes me ashamed. I think it will be time to change that.

Me too but I don't know where to start. I love history but I don't know enough about Africa.

[SPHASH]

We've been at war for over ten years. Ask your friend if they would like the flag to have remained at half mast that entire time. Chances are people would have complained that both Bush and Obama were trying to derail the public's support for war by reminding everyone of how many soldiers die. Also, soldiers are not usually public figure. The same question could be asked about policeman and firefighters who die during both war and peacetime. Why lower the flag for an important public person when a firefighter might have died fighting a blaze somewhere? I honestly don't think that your friend is upset that the flag is lowered though. My guess is she is either upset with Obama or Mandela. I have a couple of racist family members who try to hide their dislike of Obama's skin color behind similar remarks.

I did point that out to her. I also reminded her when a a significant figure dies or a major event happens the flag is lowered, like when Reagan and Ford died and 911 She got smart assy and said "at least they were Americans".

[FakePigtails]

I did point that out to her. I also reminded her when a a significant figure dies or a major event happens the flag is lowered, like when Reagan and Ford died and 911 She got smart assy and said "at least they were Americans".

I thought it was good to see the flags to at half mast in recognition of an incredible life rather than due to a gun massacre for once.

[DifferentGurl]

Ghees do the ABeka books ever say anything good about anyone? ANyhow, RIP Mandela

Technically, they say good things about "good Christians".

[louisa05]

Technically, they say good things about "good Christians".

This guy. They loved this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker_Chambers

I don't think my students were supposed to laugh uproariously at the "Why I don't drink alcohol" essay supposedly authored by him that had a side bar in the 1982 edition of the government book. But I never stopped them. And we didn't even know the gay thing that the wiki entry notes. Interesting.

[doggie]

WBC says they will picket the funeral I say go for it it may be the last time they do it.

[Cleopatra7]

This guy. They loved this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker_Chambers

I don't think my students were supposed to laugh uproariously at the "Why I don't drink alcohol" essay supposedly authored by him that had a side bar in the 1982 edition of the government book. But I never stopped them. And we didn't even know the gay thing that the wiki entry notes. Interesting.

I tried to read "Witness," but couldn't get through it. Why some conservatives think this was one of the most important books of the 20th century is a mystery to me.

[already hungover]

I bought Mandela's autobiography last night. I'm excited to read it.

[DifferentGurl]

Alright....here is what is said about Mandela in "History of the World in Christian Perspective Third Edition"...

In the history book, it focused more on the struggle of communism in South Africa than apartheid. It didn't say it was right or anything, it just said that apartheid was a segregation between the blacks and whites...seriously, that was all that they said about apartheid.

Anyways, it says that the struggle against Communism in South Africa centered on the activities of the African National Congress ( ANC ) and Mandela...um, I don't think the struggle against Communism in South Africa is not as important as the struggle against...oh, I don't know? Apartheid!!

The ANC started out as a peaceful civil rights group until it met up with the African Communist Part ( SACP ). They teamed up to form a terrorist group called the Spear of the Nation. Nelson Mandela became their leader and organized Marxist violence throughout Africa ( or did they mean South Africa? It just said Africa ). Mandela was tried and sentenced in 1964 for planning violent acts against the government. Among evidence was a note that said that the SACP will overthrow capitalism and build in its place socialism.

Now, the violent stuff that Mandela had planned was wrong....however, the book forgot to describe apartheid and how horrible it was. It would have given justification to why he did what he did. Instead, the explanation for why he did it was pretty much "Because he wanted South Africa to be communist".

To quote the book...

In the 1980s, the U.S. Congress joined the UN in trade sanctions against South Africa to protest the the racial policy of apartheid, which segregated blacks and whites. The sanctions caused wide spread suffering and unemployment, especially among black South Africans, weakening the legitimate government's attempts to achieve gradual reform while resisting Communism.

First of all, that was in fact the only explanation of apartheid in the book. Just that one small sentence. Second, the sanctions caused widespread suffering and unemployment among the blacks?! Apartheid did that!! The book made the sanctions sound like a bad thing. And third, gradually reform the system? If there weren't sanctions, the country would think that apartheid was ok and keep on doing it! The fight against Communism is nothing against the fight against apartheid!

*Takes a deep breath*

Alright...Mandela is set free in 1990. On the day of release, he stood on a podium with the flag of the SACP behind him and said that he saluted the SACP and that he was heartened that relationships between them remains strong. In 1994, he was elected president. He campaigned with Communist leaders and was often photographed raising a clenched fist - the victory salute of Communist terrorists. Isn't raising a clenched fist a victory salute everywhere? Anyways, he appointed Communists and "democratic socialists" to cabinet posts in the new government. And that ends the book's description of what happened in South Africa having to do with Mandela.

I don't know what more else to say. They focused mostly on Communism in South Africa than apartheid. They forgot to mention that Mandela had a change in heart in prison and became peaceful. But no! He's a communist and he did violent acts in his past so he's ebil!!

So, that's what the book said.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Any mention in that book that the "legitimate government" was elected by whites only, despite the fact that they were the minority?

I've had a few exasperating and :angry-banghead: discussions about Mandela over the past few days. It boils down to this:

1. "Wasn't Mandela a terrorist?"

The ANC and Mandela did use limited forms of violence, primarily sabotage. The primary targets were things, not people, and there was an effort made to avoid civilian casualties. I won't lump that together with acts that are deliberately designed to cause maximum death and injury to civilians.

2. "But he was friends with bad people/supported bad stuff, etc."

Some of that is true. Certainly, I wouldn't accept that someone was wonderful simply because they got some praise from Mandela.

What we should be asking ourselves, though, is "why?" Sometimes, in political movements, you don't always get to choose your friends. If the rest of the world isn't supportive, you sometimes accept support from anyone who will give it.

Also, why would you expect someone who was locked up for 27 years to come out with a complete, unbiased knowledge of other world conflicts?

3. "Maybe he helped some people in South Africa, but he was no friend to...."

Call me crazy, but here's where I think that Mandela's legacy matters.

Yes, Mandela was absolutely an important symbol of resistance, but he's hardly the only resistance fighter on the planet. There are plenty who can scream for resistance and fighting.

What made Mandela unique is that he not only showed that he was willing to resist and fight - but ALSO showed that he could achieve real political results, and do so in a way that was relatively peaceful and that earned him the support of the group that had been in power.

It would have been so easy for him to focus on fighting, instead of results. It also would have been easy for him to fuel racial and ethnic strife. He didn't.

That's where I think his legacy is most useful - precisely because he moved in some circles that I don't like, and because he was considered such a powerful resistance figure, I hope his example serves as a lesson. "Resistance" is not a reason to engage in hatred, or inflict grotesque violence. It's a reason to embrace values, and commit yourself to defending those values. It's a reason to keep focus on the ultimate goal, and to know that discipline is key to achieving it. It's a reason to believe that you must present yourself as a leader, and not just a fighter, and gain respect. It's a reason to know that there is a place for forgiveness and reconciliation - not to deny the past, but to have a way to move forward from it. It's a reason to know that real solutions don't mean creating new hatreds and divisions, but in respecting and uniting all.

[My conversations on the weekend, unfortunately, started to veer off into crazy town. At one point, I had to whisper to my husband, "what is the etiquette for dealing with a dinner guest who suddenly starts to spout conspiracy theories?"]

[DifferentGurl]

What angered me about my book is that it barely touched upon apartheid at all. That was the main reason Mandela did what he did. The book made it seem like he did what he did because he wanted the country to be Communist.

[Arete]

[My conversations on the weekend, unfortunately, started to veer off into crazy town. At one point, I had to whisper to my husband, "what is the etiquette for dealing with a dinner guest who suddenly starts to spout conspiracy theories?"

Pour more wine for everybody.

[DomWackTroll]

Tim Bayly defends Mandela, blog explodes:

baylyblog.com/blog/2013/12/nelson-mandelas-defense-speech-i-am-prepared-die-links

[Verin Sedai]

I was actually working with a Coloured(different meaning in SA) South African colleague when his death was announced today. She wasn't sad at all, she had very mixed feelings about him. Very different to the reactions of people who have never set foot in SA or only for diplomatic visits.

I was in a college class once when a brief argument broke out between two students about Mandela - the "pro" student was an African-American man who hoped to go into politics (who is a sweet guy but at the time had a really naive view of the world - we later became friends) and the mixed opinion/maybe anti student was a med student from Zimbabwe. The teacher shut it down before the discussion could really get legs, so I've always wondered whether the guy from Zimbabwe was really strongly anti Mandela, just trying to share a more nuanced perspective of Mandela's career, or just cranky because the pro guy had a tendency to act as if he, as an African American, had more right to interpret modern African political doings than a guy actually FROM Africa.

I've been popping around to different news sites of all stripes trying to build my own ideas, since sadly Mandela was kind of off my radar.

[Fenchurch]

Today is a very solemn day here. There is currently a memorial service happening and the weather has been uncharacteristically miserable, as if in empathy with the loss we, as South Africans, feel today and have felt since Thursday evening.

I just wanted to add my two cents to these comments :

1. "Wasn't Mandela a terrorist?"

It's really quite simple. The only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is which side you're on. Madiba became a lawyer, with his prime focus being helping uneducated black South Africans.

I believe somewhere along the way he lost his focus, and ended up being jailed for violent crimes. I believe he found his focus again while in prison.

3. "Maybe he helped some people in South Africa, but he was no friend to...."

Umm, Madiba is jointly responsible for drafting and putting in place one of the strongest constitutions in the world. We are a third world country at the ass end of a third world continent and my rights, your rights, as men, women, heterosexuals, homosexuals, minorities, majorities, black, white, atheist, theist, you name it are more protected than most first world, progressive countries.

Freedom means something more, something different here. That word isn't taken for granted. People wait for 8, 10, 14 hours in queues to vote come election time.

[SPHASH]

President Obama shook the hand of Raul Castro. Right wingers go apeshit in 3...2...1

[Dysfundamental]

What angered me about my book is that it barely touched upon apartheid at all. That was the main reason Mandela did what he did. The book made it seem like he did what he did because he wanted the country to be Communist.

A lot of right wing Christianists in the US supported the apartheid governments because they imposed "Christian values" on public media in South Africa. I'm sure the racism didn't hurt, either.

[wild little fox]

Exactly! Like Mandela FDR wasn't perfect either (cheated on Eleanor, tried to pack the Supreme Court) but he cared about the common man. Same goes for MLK Jr, JFK, and Lincoln.

Maya Angelou says we do the best we can and when we know better we do better.

I cannot fault Mandella for his pre-prison acts. I deeply admire the man he worked to become. He learned to command dignity and respect from everyone. An amazing thing to do considering he was a black man in a SA prison.

I refuse to pick up my bag of resentment and bitterness that I let go years ago. I do this because of Mandella's example of forgiveness.