News from the Dutch biblebelt

[latraviata]

National Institute for Public Health:

There is a major measles outbreak in the Dutch biblebelt!!

The local fundies are predominantly very orthodox 'Dutch reformed' people who refuse to vaccinate their children.

Different idiots than the American ones, still idiots! Dressed in black, no telly, no radio, everything nice or pleasant is sinful per definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Belt_(Netherlands)

[fundyfunland]

Ugh! Whyyy? They might want to get in touch with this couple in Australia, who now regret not vaccinating their son, who's in an induced-coma to treat tetanus. http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/201 ... 776327.htm

[NotALoserLikeYou]

When I google it I don't see anything about a current outbreak? Just that there have been some but several years ago. Anyhow still interesting because I've never heard of the Dutch bible belt so now I'm going to go ask my dutch friend about it.

[Effie]

When I google it I don't see anything about a current outbreak? Just that there have been some but several years ago. Anyhow still interesting because I've never heard of the Dutch bible belt so now I'm going to go ask my dutch friend about it.

I think you can find a bible belt in most western countries. There's even a bible belt here in Sweden.

[constantgardener]

There was a major measles outbreak in Wales recently, which doesn't have a Bible belt as far as I am aware! Lots of people did not get their children vaccinated because of the supposed link to autism. Funny how as soon as they were faced with a local epidemic, these same people were queing up to get their kids vaccinated after all.

[Pretzel]

Yup, there's also one in Germany. Just that said Bible Belt rather contains more or less still halfway reasonably thinking conservative Christians. There's not that big a "fundie" culture here in Germany, at least to my knowledge. But remember, that's why they need to seek asylum elsewhere...

[Sola]

There was a major measles outbreak in Wales recently, which doesn't have a Bible belt as far as I am aware! Lots of people did not get their children vaccinated because of the supposed link to autism. Funny how as soon as they were faced with a local epidemic, these same people were queing up to get their kids vaccinated after all.

My son has recently had the booster because he missed it at five. He had cyclic vomiting syndrome atthe time so he missed the booster. Hhe'd had the first vaccine though at fifteen months. He's 17 now and we're going to south Wales on holiday in a few weeks so I wanted to be sure he was covered. I think a lot of the people who refused the vaccine did so because of the autism scare, which at the time was quite convincing. It didn't help that there was an explosion of websites and groups about it too such as mercola and a huge yahoo group called autsim and vaccinations.My son was dxd with autism back then and the misinformation was scary, though that wasn't the reason my son missed the booster. I knew my son had been autistic from birth.

North Wales is more religious than South I'd say. You can't throw a stone without hitting a chapel! South is much more 'English'. But even in religious circles in the UK there isn't the anti vaccine mindset that there is in the USA. Its more the crunchy/hippy types which seem to be more atheist than anything who refuse all vaccines here.

[latraviata]

When I google it I don't see anything about a current outbreak? Just that there have been some but several years ago. Anyhow still interesting because I've never heard of the Dutch bible belt so now I'm going to go ask my dutch friend about it.

For your Dutch friend:

http://nos.nl/artikel/517052-uitbraak-m ... el-nl.html

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2672/Wet ... belt.dhtml

https://www.nieuws.nl/algemeen/20130611 ... jbelgordel

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

latraviata, I think you sum it up perfectly: "different idiots; still idiots." :lol:

[gustava]

Robert Kennedy, jr. is getting on the antivax bandwagon. Maybe he and Jenny Garth will get married.

[Anxious Girl]

The linkage is broken. :( I wonder which western country is the least religious, though out of curiosity.

[Anxious Girl]

Robert Kennedy, jr. is getting on the antivax bandwagon. Maybe he and Jenny Garth will get married.

Is he related to J.F.K? :think: I was looking up on wikipedia on American presidents' descendents, and it surprised me on how many of them became the opposite of what their ancestor was (conservative.). I don't know most of their names, I just skimmed them. Theodore Roosevelt IV is particularly (sp?) interesting, b/c even though he's a republican, he doesn't like their views on science, particularly climate change and global warming. He sounds like a democrat stuck in the republican party. But then again, this is wikipedia, so I have to be careful on how I trust it.

[Loveday]

Is he related to J.F.K? :think: I was looking up on wikipedia on American presidents' descendents, and it surprised me on how many of them became the opposite of what their ancestor was (conservative.). I don't know most of their names, I just skimmed them. Theodore Roosevelt IV is particularly (sp?) interesting, b/c even though he's a republican, he doesn't like their views on science, particularly climate change and global warming. He sounds like a democrat stuck in the republican party. But then again, this is wikipedia, so I have to be careful on how I trust it.

Yes, he's the son of JFK's brother Bobby Kennedy. :)

[PennySycamore]

Teddy wouldn't be a Republican in today's party either. He was a progressive (in fact, ran for President as the Progressive Party candiddate in 1912) and was an environmentalist. He did more to preserve the American wilderness than probably any other president.

Now, Ronald Reagan, on the other hand, was a full-on Teabagger despite some effort to paint him otherwise. He be perfectly at home in today's GOP.

[honeyinthesunshine]

I chose not to vaccinate, and I'm not an idiot, thanks.

I'm a caring parent who made a personal decision for my family. I don't have any opinion or judgement on parents who choose to vaccinate their children, it's a choice. I'm completely comfortable (as is my pediatrician) with the arduous research we've done, and with the decision we've made.

I'm also a home birther, and I feel that medically unnecessary c sections are dangerous, but I'd never call any woman an idiot for having one. It's a personal choice, and not one any mother takes lightly.

There are reasons other than religious ones for eschewing vaccines. And even if that is the reasoning behind a parents choice, who are we to judge?

[AuntCloud]

Problem is, your "personal" choice affects many, many others. The elderly, the immuno-compromised, young babies and pregnant women.

There are non-vaxers who honestly wonder why they should care about the well-being of anyone outside their immediate family. I'm not exactly sure how to answer that, other than - good luck, if that's the kind of society you'd like to live in.

Unnecessary c-sections are a drain on system resources, and ideally I would like to see tighter regulations on elective c-sections.

[honeyinthesunshine]

How does it effect others if they're vaccinated? Aren't they supposed to then be immune? What you're referencing is what is known as "herd immunity" and if you can find one published study to back that hypothesis up I'll eat my hat.

ETA- And since you're so quick to trust pharmaceutical companies (who, it should be noted lobbied quite fervently to make vaccines mandatory in the US) to pump shit into my kid, take a second and read about Vioxx and the hundred thousand plus people it killed. See the name of the pharmaceutical company that manufactured it, the lengths they went to to cover it up, and then, note the other wonder drugs they produce. Get back to me.

[Sola]

How does it effect others if they're vaccinated? Aren't they supposed to then be immune? What you're referencing is what is known as "herd immunity" and if you can find one published study to back that hypothesis up I'll eat my hat.

Because some people can't be vaccinated and have to rely on herd immunity. Every person like you who refuses vaccines for no good reason weakens that herd immunity and puts those who can't be vaccinated at risk. Herd immunity needs to be around 95% at least to be effective. Right now in Wales there have been approx 1000 cases of measles doe to herd immunity dropping to around 85%. I don't really care if you don't like being called an idiot, you are one and a selfish one at that.

[AuntCloud]

How does it effect others if they're vaccinated? Aren't they supposed to then be immune? What you're referencing is what is known as "herd immunity" and if you can find one published study to back that hypothesis up I'll eat my hat.

It's affecting the non-vaccinated and the immunocompromised. And some vaccinated people. I'm studying for a big exam and won't be able to keep on discussing, but here are a few articles I gleaned at a peer-reviewed source.

"Could the United States experience rubella outbreaks as a result of vaccine refusal and disease importation?"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21150305

"Measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population, San Diego, 2008: role of the intentionally undervaccinated."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308208

"Lancet retracts 12-year-old article linking autism to MMR vaccines."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20142376

"Long-lasting measles outbreak affecting several unrelated networks of unvaccinated persons."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19827945

"Measles outbreak associated with a church congregation: a study of immunization attitudes of congregation members."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18457065

[AuntCloud]

Oh, and the big bad pharma companies? I'd rather go to bed with them rather than measles or tetanus.

You don't trust them, alright, I can see where you're coming from. But you're implying you have a higher trust of deadly viruses.

[formergothardite]

How does it effect others if they're vaccinated? Aren't they supposed to then be immune? What you're referencing is what is known as "herd immunity" and if you can find one published study to back that hypothesis up I'll eat my hat.

ETA- And since you're so quick to trust pharmaceutical companies (who, it should be noted lobbied quite fervently to make vaccines mandatory in the US) to pump shit into my kid, take a second and read about Vioxx and the hundred thousand plus people it killed. See the name of the pharmaceutical company that manufactured it, the lengths they went to to cover it up, and then, note the other wonder drugs they produce. Get back to me.

I'm surprised that you don't know the answer to this, since you have researched subject so much. Vaccines are not 100% effective. For most children they are, but there are some children who can be vaccinated and still catch the disease. The more people who are vaccinated the less likely the disease is to go around. So your unvaccinated child can catch these things more easily than a vaccinated child (just one example, in Colorado in 1994 there was a measles outbreak. 44% of unimmunized children caught it while less than 2% of immunized children caught it)and spread them around to children who are immune compromised so they can't be vaccinated or even those who have been vaccinated. So, yes, your personal choice can effect the health of other children.

I understand that people do research and weigh the risks and I can respect that, but to pretend that unimmunized children won't catch these illnesses easier AND that they can't spread them to children who are vaccinated shows a person who has not really researched the issue because just a quick research will show that vaccinated children can still catch these illnesses.

[latraviata]

I chose not to vaccinate, and I'm not an idiot, thanks.

I'm a caring parent who made a personal decision for my family. I don't have any opinion or judgement on parents who choose to vaccinate their children, it's a choice. I'm completely comfortable (as is my pediatrician) with the arduous research we've done, and with the decision we've made.

I'm also a home birther, and I feel that medically unnecessary c sections are dangerous, but I'd never call any woman an idiot for having one. It's a personal choice, and not one any mother takes lightly.

There are reasons other than religious ones for eschewing vaccines. And even if that is the reasoning behind a parents choice, who are we to judge?

I am sorry to say, but yes you are.

Before you make such a decision you should really educate yourself . I mean real education and not the marginal, unscientific mumbo jumbo, some people produce on their websites.

[purpleeee]

The linkage is broken. :( I wonder which western country is the least religious, though out of curiosity.

Czech Republic, according to the interesting map here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... ists-live/

Warning: don't try to follow the link to the poll they mention; you get messages about a site that can harm your computer. I googled the name of the poll and found a safe version on google docs: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9FfgKG ... edit?pli=1

The USA isn't even in the top of 20 of most religious nations (the top 10 is Ghana, Nigeria, Armenia, Fiji, Macedonia, Romania, Iraq, Kenya, Peru and Brazil; Pakistan is 12th). It does make top 10 for biggest declines in religiosity since 2005. Women are slightly more likely to declare atheism than men.

[honeyinthesunshine]

I did do the research, as did my doctor, one of many physicians who are opting to take a different approach to vaccines than the traditional schedule. As for the studies listed, I have read them, and what they point out is that unvaccinated children are at increased risk for contracting the diseases that are vaccinated children are supposedly immune to.

We know that. We also know that vaccinated children are at risk because vaccines fail. My daughter has never been in day care, and we plan to homeschool, and if that were to change, we would certainly discuss vaccination further, but, as it stands, we are happy with our decision.

Once again, herd immunity is not proven, at 95% or at all. It's a hypothesis, not a certainty.

I have several friends with children who are classified as vaccine injured, and watching them struggle and wait with bated breath for their children to reach developmental milestones is horrifying,and it's not what I want for my family. Parenting is a minefield of shitty decisions. There are no easy answers, and I know I am constantly striving and questioning and reassessing. It's the nature of the beast. But I'm okay with this decision, and I'm okay with people disagreeing with it.

I don't expect for everyone to agree with me, I come to this forum because the people here are intelligent and well read, and I respect and value what I have learned from them. This forum has definitely enriched my worldview, and I am grateful. I always strive to be respectful, even when things get heated, and even if you disagree with me, I'd appreciate the same. Calling names is inappropriate. Please don't.

[Sola]

Would you give an unrepentant drunk driver respect?