News from the Dutch biblebelt

[Muriel]

I did do the research, as did my doctor, one of many physicians who are opting to take a different approach to vaccines than the traditional schedule. As for the studies listed, I have read them, and what they point out is that unvaccinated children are at increased risk for contracting the diseases that are vaccinated children are supposedly immune to.

We know that. We also know that vaccinated children are at risk because vaccines fail. My daughter has never been in day care, and we plan to homeschool, and if that were to change, we would certainly discuss vaccination further, but, as it stands, we are happy with our decision.

Once again, herd immunity is not proven, at 95% or at all. It's a hypothesis, not a certainty.

I have several friends with children who are classified as vaccine injured, and watching them struggle and wait with bated breath for their children to reach developmental milestones is horrifying,and it's not what I want for my family. Parenting is a minefield of shitty decisions. There are no easy answers, and I know I am constantly striving and questioning and reassessing. It's the nature of the beast. But I'm okay with this decision, and I'm okay with people disagreeing with it.

I don't expect for everyone to agree with me, I come to this forum because the people here are intelligent and well read, and I respect and value what I have learned from them. This forum has definitely enriched my worldview, and I am grateful. I always strive to be respectful, even when things get heated, and even if you disagree with me, I'd appreciate the same. Calling names is inappropriate. Please don't.

Several of my ancestors were severely disabled or died from horrific diseases that are now avoided by vaccinations.

Not vaccinating a child is certainly a first world thing, you can do it, because thanks to mass vaccination your child is not going to catch horrific diseases who were common less than a century ago...

One of my great aunt became blind after a severe case of measles when she was 18 months. I have known several people disabled because they had poliomyelitis...

Do you realise what was the infant mortality rate in western countries before vaccines were widely available ?

[Sola]

I think the eradicating of small pox says enough of the proven benefits of herd immunity.

[Muriel]

And France is the second most atheist western country right after Czech Republic :D

There is no Bible belt in France, even in the most religious part of France, Brittany, we don't have that !

[laura oz]

I chose not to vaccinate, and I'm not an idiot, thanks.

I'm a caring parent who made a personal decision for my family. I don't have any opinion or judgement on parents who choose to vaccinate their children, it's a choice. I'm completely comfortable (as is my pediatrician) with the arduous research we've done, and with the decision we've made.

I'm also a home birther, and I feel that medically unnecessary c sections are dangerous, but I'd never call any woman an idiot for having one. It's a personal choice, and not one any mother takes lightly.

There are reasons other than religious ones for eschewing vaccines. And even if that is the reasoning behind a parents choice, who are we to judge?

I remember you! *waving* You posted on a thread Soldier of the One started about pregnancy, and as I recall you were pregnant at the time. How are you, and hope your gestation is going well :D

[ILoveJellybeans]

Herd immunity is a real thing though.

It makes sense. There are some people can not have vaccines, and these people are at risk from catching dangerous diseases. Diseases are passed on from being in contact with people who have them. If everyone around them is vaccinated for these diseases, there are less people who are going to catch them as they are less likely to become in contact with someone who has it and can pass it on. If there are loads of people walking around who arent immune to a disease, a virus can easily pass on through the community, as if one person catches it, they could easily spread it to everyone they come in contact with, and then they will spread it further.

Yes, some people do have a legitimate reason not to vaccinate-allergies to vaccines do exist. These are the people herd immunity is for.

[honeyinthesunshine]

I remember you! *waving* You posted on a thread Soldier of the One started about pregnancy, and as I recall you were pregnant at the time. How are you, and hope your gestation is going well :D

*Waves back* We're doing awesome! She was born on April 4th, (17 days late!) at home, 7lb 2oz, and she's doing wonderfully!

We had a 26 hour labor, which was actually not so bad as I feared, (until the end, which was just insanely painful) and she was born face up! We named her Ava Mary (Mary is our midwife's name), and we are just over the moon with her. And, to what I posted on that thread, I'd totally rather labor then go through pregnancy. Pregnancy sucked. I still think so. How are you?

[SpeakNow]

I did do the research, as did my doctor, one of many physicians who are opting to take a different approach to vaccines than the traditional schedule. As for the studies listed, I have read them, and what they point out is that unvaccinated children are at increased risk for contracting the diseases that are vaccinated children are supposedly immune to.

We know that. We also know that vaccinated children are at risk because vaccines fail. My daughter has never been in day care, and we plan to homeschool, and if that were to change, we would certainly discuss vaccination further, but, as it stands, we are happy with our decision.

Once again, herd immunity is not proven, at 95% or at all. It's a hypothesis, not a certainty.

I have several friends with children who are classified as vaccine injured, and watching them struggle and wait with bated breath for their children to reach developmental milestones is horrifying,and it's not what I want for my family. Parenting is a minefield of shitty decisions. There are no easy answers, and I know I am constantly striving and questioning and reassessing. It's the nature of the beast. But I'm okay with this decision, and I'm okay with people disagreeing with it.

I don't expect for everyone to agree with me, I come to this forum because the people here are intelligent and well read, and I respect and value what I have learned from them. This forum has definitely enriched my worldview, and I am grateful. I always strive to be respectful, even when things get heated, and even if you disagree with me, I'd appreciate the same. Calling names is inappropriate. Please don't.

I call BS on knowing several vaccine injured kids. Was testing done to prove that the issue was caused by the vaccine, or did the issue come up around the time of vaccination? I teach special education, and I've never had a student who was vaccine injured. (I know this is anecdotal) I find it very hard to believe that you know several.

[laura oz]

*Waves back* We're doing awesome! She was born on April 4th, (17 days late!) at home, 7lb 2oz, and she's doing wonderfully!

We had a 26 hour labor, which was actually not so bad as I feared, (until the end, which was just insanely painful) and she was born face up! We named her Ava Mary (Mary is our midwife's name), and we are just over the moon with her. And, to what I posted on that thread, I'd totally rather labor then go through pregnancy. Pregnancy sucked. I still think so. How are you?

Congratulations on Ava Mary! So she was born face up, huh? That had to drag out labor... OUCH. *crossing my legs hard* I know what you mean about pregnancy sucking. I spent a long time in the hospital to stop early labor, and was on bed rest with magnesium. Sucked. I'd rather have natural any day than that. Me, Mr oz, and the little Ozes are doing great, and thank you so much for asking :D

[Jinderella]

I'm from the Netherlands and I live right on top of the Bible Belt. I have a son who just recovered from leukemia, but his blood counts are still extremely low, he missed out on his latest vaccination and his immunsystem isn't working at all right now.

I am terrified.

Every parent can make his own choice about vaccination. Nobody has to give their children medication to save the child of somebody else. But don't tell me your decision doesn't impact my son or other people, because it does.

[formergothardite]

I did do the research, as did my doctor, one of many physicians who are opting to take a different approach to vaccines than the traditional schedule. As for the studies listed, I have read them, and what they point out is that unvaccinated children are at increased risk for contracting the diseases that are vaccinated children are supposedly immune to.

We know that. We also know that vaccinated children are at risk because vaccines fail. My daughter has never been in day care, and we plan to homeschool, and if that were to change, we would certainly discuss vaccination further, but, as it stands, we are happy with our decision.

Once again, herd immunity is not proven, at 95% or at all. It's a hypothesis, not a certainty.

I have several friends with children who are classified as vaccine injured, and watching them struggle and wait with bated breath for their children to reach developmental milestones is horrifying,and it's not what I want for my family. Parenting is a minefield of shitty decisions. There are no easy answers, and I know I am constantly striving and questioning and reassessing. It's the nature of the beast. But I'm okay with this decision, and I'm okay with people disagreeing with it.

I don't expect for everyone to agree with me, I come to this forum because the people here are intelligent and well read, and I respect and value what I have learned from them. This forum has definitely enriched my worldview, and I am grateful. I always strive to be respectful, even when things get heated, and even if you disagree with me, I'd appreciate the same. Calling names is inappropriate. Please don't.

If you knew that your unvaccinated child is at higher risk of getting the diseases AND that they can spread them to vaccinated children because immunizations are not 100% effective 100% of the time, why in the world did you ask:

How does it effect others if they're vaccinated? Aren't they supposed to then be immune?

You know the answers to both those questions, why pretend to be ignorant, especially after claiming that you are well informed on the subject? I am genuinely curios as to why someone in this sort of conversation would claim to be knowledgeable of a subject while at the same time asking questions that make them look like they don't even have the most basic knowledge of the subject. Why not just acknowledge the truth since you already know it? The truth is that yes, your child can catch these things easier and yes she can spread them to children who are vaccinated.

[ShesCrafty]

I always strive to be respectful, even when things get heated, and even if you disagree with me, I'd appreciate the same. Calling names is inappropriate. Please don't.

Uh, no. You don't get to cheerfully announce that you are making ill-informed decisions that negatively affect society and then expect others to respect your decisions. Herd immunity exists, whether you want to believe the evidence or not. You are making poor choices that harm others and I believe calling you an idiot in this case is quite appropriate, so I'll do it. You're an idiot.

[Anxious Girl]

... So, this is what I miss when I go to the dentist for a half-hour? :lol: Is honeyinthesunshine our newest troll? * please don't hurt me * Maybe she's shitstain in disguise? Does anybody here know if shitstain is anti-vacination?

[Val78]

Herd immunity is why so many of these diseases are not present on an enormous scale anymore. Because the masses receive them.

What has happened that makes you think kids are damaged by vaccines? Things like ADD & autism spectrum?

[Arete]

... So, this is what I miss when I go to the dentist for a half-hour? :lol: Is honeyinthesunshine our newest troll? * please don't hurt me * Maybe she's shitstain in disguise? Does anybody here know if shitstain is anti-vacination?

Please stop throwing the troll accusation out so casually. Or at least have the decency to go through some of her other posts before you lob it out. No, she is not a troll. :roll:

[latraviata]

Uh, no. You don't get to cheerfully announce that you are making ill-informed decisions that negatively affect society and then expect others to respect your decisions. Herd immunity exists, whether you want to believe the evidence or not. You are making poor choices that harm others and I believe calling you an idiot in this case is quite appropriate, so I'll do it. You're an idiot.

Exactly, this is the reason for the ourburst in the Dutch bible belt and the reason that the Dutch National Institute of Public Health is on top of it.

On another note and this is adressed to the non vaccinating mama,

My late younger son had a compromised immunity because of the medication he had to swallow after his kidney transplants. Albeit fully vaccinated, he had a high risk to get the diseases for which he was vaccinated.

Think about it.

Nobody gets more pissed about this than his brother who is a medical specialist. He calls you a serious threat to public health. This matter has been investigated and studied over and over again and every physician or medical scientist in my country will tell you bluntly, there is no relationship between vaccinations and for instance autism and/ other medical deviations

So, get real and stop being a fool.

I' ve lost a child and I truly don't want that to anybody to happen, not if you can prevent it.

[Mami2four]

I live in South Wales right next door to the area affected by the measles outbreak. Back when I had my twins 12 years ago there were many parents not getting the MMR jabs for their kids. But as has been said this was mostly due to the autism risk rather than any religious reasons. We are not a very religious area as a whole but also not a very 'crunchy' area either. I'm classed as way out and hippyish because I use cloth nappies, wear my babies and breastfeed (even just breastfeeding past the first few weeks is seen as extreme lol)

There are also concerns that the rate of mumps cases is increasing and there is a risk of rubella appearing in Wales after there not being any cases for a few years. There have been loads of drop in clinics and school vaccination sessions going on and even though over 50,000 adults and children have been vaccinated, there are still over 35,000 10-18 year olds who haven't been! This really worries me as I am due to give birth in the next 7 weeks and even though it has slowed down there have been 20 new cases in the last week and babies can't be vaccinated until they are 6 months old.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Exactly, this is the reason for the ourburst in the Dutch bible belt and the reason that the Dutch National Institute of Public Health is on top of it.

On another note and this is adressed to the non vaccinating mama,

My late younger son had a compromised immunity because of the medication he had to swallow after his kidney transplants. Albeit fully vaccinated, he had a high risk to get the diseases for which he was vaccinated.

Think about it.

Nobody gets more pissed about this than his brother who is a medical specialist. He calls you a serious threat to public health. This matter has been investigated and studied over and over again and every physician or medical scientist in my country will tell you bluntly, there is no relationship between vaccinations and for instance autism and/ other medical deviations

So, get real and stop being a fool.

I' ve lost a child and I truly don't want that to anybody to happen, not if you can prevent it.

I must agree with Latraviata on this. There are risks associated with vaccination. Autism is NOT one of the risks. In fact, the researcher who published the study in "The Lancet" (The British medical journey that published the study), Andrew Wakefield, was not only forced to retract the study publicly, but had i his medical license revoked. His study was not only flawed, but showed evidence of willful use of misleading data. Whene we vaccinate, we are required to inform adult patients and the parents of minors about the risks. The worst risk of all vaccines being anaphylactic shock leading to death. It is extraordinarily rare, but can occur. In addition, because the MMR is a live vaccine, there is risk of developing a mild form of the disease. I saw a child develop swelling in his parotid glands consitant with a case of "mumps" saveral days after getting the vaccine. The tetaus/pertussis shot is not a live vaccine and is frequently accompanied by a fever. If the fever gets very high or/and the child has a seizure from the fever, we will suspend further immunization.

THAT is an informed decision.

Prior to the vaccine era, it was very common for parents to lose at least one child to one of these terrible diseases, or to have a child permanently disabled from the disease. It is not difficult to understand why the parents of the 1950's and 1960's were happy to get their children immunized. The immunizations have been broadly successful I have been practicing medicine for nearly 30 years. I have seen maybe 3 cases of measles and 5 or 6 cases of Rubella (German measles) in my entire career. We used to bring kids with chicken pox in the back door of the office for confirmation and symptomatic treatment. Since the vaccine became widely available, I rarely see a case anymore.

Because seeing the disease is so very rare, parents have focused on the dangers of the vaccines. The devastation of these childhood diseases is so removed from their reality, that I totally understand why the risks loom larger to them. It simply is not true. The risks of vaccines are far far less than the risks of taking your child to the mall. I am so sad that it takes an outbreak of the real thing to change some people's minds about that.

*Edited because vaccines are NOT a risk for autism.

[latraviata]

I'm from the Netherlands and I live right on top of the Bible Belt. I have a son who just recovered from leukemia, but his blood counts are still extremely low, he missed out on his latest vaccination and his immunsystem isn't working at all right now.

I am terrified.

Every parent can make his own choice about vaccination. Nobody has to give their children medication to save the child of somebody else. But don't tell me your decision doesn't impact my son or other people, because it does.

Hi Jinderella and I am from the Netherlands too. My late younger son who was a kidney patient was in the same position as your son is right now and I fully understand you are terrified. That's why I am so pissed about this anti vaccination nonsense! I am afraid you can't fight stupidity.

I'll wish you and your son the very, very best and lots of courage.

[Jinderella]

Hi Jinderella and I am from the Netherlands too. My late younger son who was a kidney patient was in the same position as your son is right now and I fully understand you are terrified. That's why I am so pissed about this anti vaccination nonsense! I am afraid you can't fight stupidity.

I'll wish you and your son the very, very best and lots of courage.

Thank you.

I do realize I can't force other people to make medical decisions about their children they don't support. I actually do believe parents opinions should be considered when treating a child. But parent who choose not to vaccinate should know how their choice affects others, because it does! And they should make such an important decision based on the right reasons. Not because the disproved link with autism.

[Savoring Samsara]

Women are slightly more likely to declare atheism than men.

That is really interesting to me. It has always been my perception that there are many more atheist men than women, at least in terms of those who are highly vocal about their views. If there really are more atheist women than men, that has some very interesting implications for the recent push to make the atheist movement more supportive of feminism and gender equality (among other issues).

[laura oz]

Florence or anyone else in the medical community, can someone please tell me why non vaxers like Jenny McCarthy get so much media air time to promote their agenda? Now, I already know that JM is a media whore and maybe she is more vigorous in promoting whatever keeps her in the public eye and a bit more relevant, but other than that, why isn't the opposite viewpoint presented more? Both of my children are toddlers and were preemies so they had all their shots, and the doctor scared me so bad about their immune systems and being exposed to people who weren't vaccinated or were sick that we damn near became agoraphobic. They didn't get exposed to anything that wasn't bleached, purelled, or sometimes boiled. Now they just started preschool in September, and have had everything that went around that cesspool of germs at least 3 times. I'm living for summer vacation so that maybe we all can have a solid month without the perpetual cold and bronchitis we've had all year. 2 more weeks to go!

[AuntCloud]

a. I believe the non-vaxers are doing this partly to be counter-cultural. Sort of like no-helmet-Kendull. Yes, we do live in a society driven by fear. The trick is to know the difference between knowing how not to let fear rule you and being cavalier about basic safety precautions.

b. Your kiddos collected all the respiratory bugs, which they were not vaccinated against. A vaccine isn't an insurance policy that ensures your kids will never, ever get sick. The odds of them catching the diseases they were vaccinated against is much lower than if they weren't.

c. Sorry you had to go through the tough first year of preschool. I promise it gets better as their immune system matures.

[Effie]

You know the saying that Swedes survived the 19:th century thanks to the potato and the vaccine? The vaccine played a huge role in the survival of my ancestors.

[apple1]

Florence or anyone else in the medical community, can someone please tell me why non vaxers like Jenny McCarthy get so much media air time to promote their agenda?

(I am obviously not Florence, and not a physician, but I am a long-time healthcare professional.)

All of us mainstream healthcare professionals who just go to work everyday and do our jobs according to mainstream standard of care (that's a very important phrase BTW) aren't news. It's old hat.

The counter-the-prevailing-practices somehow are viewed as news by a lot of media, unfortuately. :orly: And as a general practice, media representatives do not have the knowledge (or probably the desire) to ask hard questions and question the incorrect information and wrong assumptions. For the most part, they are just after a story.

There are exceptions to the above. For example, generally CNN's Sanjay Gupta does an exceptional job of evaluating and reporting on healthcare topics. I'm sure there are a few others. But face it, CNN is boring compared to many others.

[latraviata]

Last update:

In two days, the number of measles patients doubled.