News from the Dutch biblebelt

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think that individuality is a hallmark of western culture, particularly in the United States. Our default position is to question authority. The only time we look to authority is when we are in distress. The general population was in distress from burying children in the last century. Vaccines completely changed the landscape. Accidents are now the leading cause of death in children after the first year. I see parents going to great lengths to prevent these. In fact, a good bit of the homeschool movement is in response to fear about putting their children in harms way out of the sight of their parents.

Vaccines have been hugely effective. We are now in a time when virtually the entire population has been immunized from birth through old age. There is no longer a perceived risk from these diseases. There remains the ambient risk of the vaccines themselves. There are REAL risks. These risks have always existed and the mainstream medical communty has never denied them. There are also sensationalized risks that are not true. We have romantisized the idea that authority is always hiding something from us and that some appealing figure has unearthed this "truth" about how the government is hurting us. The press exisists for sensationalism. Put these together and you have tremendous crowd appeal. A pretty face, a government conspiracy and an outlet to reach the public and touch their fears....a cult begins.

I want to digress for a moment and comment about questioning authority. I think that questioning authority is a healthy and good thing. But when you question authority, be certain to check your resources fer veracity. Really think about it. When you do your research, make certain that your sources are valid. Read both sides. One thing I have learned is that there are things that I do not possess the time or ability to completely understand. The key is to carefully choose which authority to trust. I would not trust Jenny McCarthy over the mainstream medical community. I would not trust an inflammatory advertisement from a local law firm about some product and a cless action suit. I do pay attention to dissenters. I just don't jump on a bandwagon because the music appeals to me.

[Knight of Ni]

As a recent public health graduate it frustrates me to no end that people will still willingly choose to not vaccinate their children. I wonder if they would rather see them paralyzed by polio. In the case of vaccines causing children to be delayed in reaching developmental milestones, there is no proof that vaccines are the cause. In fact there is more proof that vaccines are not the cause. Doctors start to notice that babies are failing to achieve milestones around the age that vaccines are scheduled. You must remember that correlation does not equal causation. For example before the development of the polio vaccine, polio cases tended to rise in the summer. But so did ice cream sales. Does that mean that ice cream causes polio. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

The fact that you intend to homeschool should make no difference in your decision to vaccinate your children. They will still come in contact with people of all ages everyday. Even something as innocent as a grocery shopping trip can be enough to spread the disease. What about homeschool co-ops and play dates with friends? Or do you intend to keep your children in complete isolation Maxwell style. (Even they get to go to their family conferences).

Also on the subject of Vioxx. Where is your evidence that millions of people were killed. Merck reportedly payed out to 27,000 lawsuits. You are off by two degrees of magnitude. Considering the fact that Vioxx was at one time prescribed to over 84 million people, the drug is not nearly as dangerous as the media made it out to be. Based on the numbers Vioxx is not really all that dangerous. Even aspirin has side effects.

One last question: You said you reached this decision through your pediatrician. I can't imagine a competent pediatrician giving out this type of advice. You may want to consider asking about his credentials or finding a new pediatrician ASAP. The health of your children depends on it.

[latraviata]

One last question: You said you reached this decision through your pediatrician. I can't imagine a competent pediatrician giving out this type of advice. You may want to consider asking about his credentials or finding a new pediatrician ASAP. The health of your children depends on it.

If this is true, - I had the impression het pediatrician respects her choice- and a pediatcian gave this advice I can assure you that in the Netherlands he would'nt get away with it .

[BlondeAgent007]

People who automatically disagree with the majority are not trolls. I hate when that word is tossed around lightly. We do have real trolls around here, and have had problems in the past with members accusing every naysayers of being one. If you suspect troll activity, go through some of their older posts, or bring it to the attention of a moderator. If the person truly is a troll, they will have most likely been watching them anyway, or will have already gotten complaints. Don't start a witch hunt.

[Chicken bones]

One last question: You said you reached this decision through your pediatrician. I can't imagine a competent pediatrician giving out this type of advice. You may want to consider asking about his credentials or finding a new pediatrician ASAP. The health of your children depends on it.

If this is true, - I had the impression het pediatrician respects her choice- and a pediatcian gave this advice I can assure you that in the Netherlands he would'nt get away with it .

I can say that my children's first pediatrician (later labelled "the quack" by my husband) is one of those who are fine with no or altered vaccination. Her practice is based on things like that and apparently very popular in our suburban, educated area. I started out going to her on the advice of a good friend and as I really began researching, changed practices. My current doctors have nothing good to say about this other doctor's methods. My children are up to date on their vaccinations, as am I. Do I expect miracles? No. My son still got Flu type A after vaccination, but it probably lessened the symptoms. But could I live with myself if he suffered impairment or death from something I could have vaccinated him against? NO.

[Mama Mia]

I want to digress for a moment and comment about questioning authority. I think that questioning authority is a healthy and good thing. But when you question authority, be certain to check your resources fer veracity. Really think about it. When you do your research, make certain that your sources are valid. Read both sides. One thing I have learned is that there are things that I do not possess the time or ability to completely understand. The key is to carefully choose which authority to trust. I would not trust Jenny McCarthy over the mainstream medical community. I would not trust an inflammatory advertisement from a local law firm about some product and a cless action suit. I do pay attention to dissenters. I just don't jump on a bandwagon because the music appeals to me.

What you are missing is that many, many, many people have been severely injured by medications and devices promoted as harmless by the main stream medical establishment. That is WHY there are class action lawsuits. And if you speak to most members of the medical establishment they will act like they have never, ever heard of a problem with the medications and devices they are promoting --- despite the huge numbers of people who have, in fact, had their lives destroyed. That does not lead to trust. Waiting for a scientific, peer reviewed double blind study does you no good if it is YOUR life that is ruined. I am not talking about vaccines in particular here - but the blind acceptance of just taking the word of a doctor regarding decisions that won't effect them, but will effect you.

[Aine]

I am absolutely pro-vaccination and agree with posters who have expressed outrage at non-vaccers.

Just wanted to add two points:

1) There are some questions about *some* vaccines. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't been able to find a longitudinal study on Gardasil. Here in Australia, it is now being rolled out in high schools to both girls and boys and I find this mass vaccination without knowing the long term effects slightly worrying. I'm not saying there is concrete evidence that it does cause problems or anything, but I would do some serious research before giving my child the Gardasil vaccine.

2) Many posters have mentioned children with immune suppression or who can't be vaccinated, but I think another important population at risk by anti-vaccination rhetoric are small babies. Infants have been dying in many Western countries (a quick Google is showing me it happening in the US, UK and here in Australia) from whooping cough/pertussis. Small babies can't be vaccinated for it and it is non-vaccinated children putting them at increased risk of catching it.

[gustava]

What you are missing is that many, many, many people have been severely injured by medications and devices promoted as harmless by the main stream medical establishment. That is WHY there are class action lawsuits. And if you speak to most members of the medical establishment they will act like they have never, ever heard of a problem with the medications and devices they are promoting --- despite the huge numbers of people who have, in fact, had their lives destroyed. That does not lead to trust. Waiting for a scientific, peer reviewed double blind study does you no good if it is YOUR life that is ruined. I am not talking about vaccines in particular here - but the blind acceptance of just taking the word of a doctor regarding decisions that won't effect them, but will effect you.

Evidence?

[OkToBeTakei]

Evidence?

Thalidomide.

[Jinger Jar]

Evidence?

Diethylstilbestrol

[Mama Mia]

Evidence?

Surgical Mesh

[FlorenceHamilton]

Surgical Mesh

Which surgical mesh?

This illustrates the point. Remember to think critically. If an advertisement or media report plays to emotions in an inflammatory way, it is a good idea to check you sources.

[FlorenceHamilton]

As a recent public health graduate it frustrates me to no end that people will still willingly choose to not vaccinate their children. I wonder if they would rather see them paralyzed by polio. In the case of vaccines causing children to be delayed in reaching developmental milestones, there is no proof that vaccines are the cause. In fact there is more proof that vaccines are not the cause. Doctors start to notice that babies are failing to achieve milestones around the age that vaccines are scheduled. You must remember that correlation does not equal causation. For example before the development of the polio vaccine, polio cases tended to rise in the summer. But so did ice cream sales. Does that mean that ice cream causes polio. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

The fact that you intend to homeschool should make no difference in your decision to vaccinate your children. They will still come in contact with people of all ages everyday. Even something as innocent as a grocery shopping trip can be enough to spread the disease. What about homeschool co-ops and play dates with friends? Or do you intend to keep your children in complete isolation Maxwell style. (Even they get to go to their family conferences).

Also on the subject of Vioxx. Where is your evidence that millions of people were killed. Merck reportedly payed out to 27,000 lawsuits. You are off by two degrees of magnitude. Considering the fact that Vioxx was at one time prescribed to over 84 million people, the drug is not nearly as dangerous as the media made it out to be. Based on the numbers Vioxx is not really all that dangerous. Even aspirin has side effects.

One last question: You said you reached this decision through your pediatrician. I can't imagine a competent pediatrician giving out this type of advice. You may want to consider asking about his credentials or finding a new

pediatrician ASAP. The health of your children depends on it.

Aspirin is far more dangerous that Vioxx. It changes the red blood cells permanently to make them less sticky. It lasts about 180 days, which is the life a s red blood cell. The number of bleeding deaths from aspirin is staggering. It is also likely underreported because aspirin has been available over the counter for such a long time.

The reason why many medications are available only by prescription...and immunizations as well...is because they are risky. It requires some training and experience to weigh the risks and help with choices.

[gustava]

Aspirin is far more dangerous that Vioxx. It changes the red blood cells permanently to make them less sticky. It lasts about 180 days, which is the life a s red blood cell. The number of bleeding deaths from aspirin is staggering. It is also likely underreported because aspirin has been available over the counter for such a long time.

The reason why many medications are available only by prescription...and immunizations as well...is because they are risky. It requires some training and experience to weigh the risks and help with choices.

Again, where is your evidence? Scientific evidence, not anecdotes.

[FlorenceHamilton]

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/medlineplus.html

Search "aspirin". Edited because I am still learning to cut and paste with my iPad.

[Mama Mia]

Which surgical mesh?

This illustrates the point. Remember to think critically. If an advertisement or media report plays to emotions in an inflammatory way, it is a good idea to check you sources.

Um, the surgical mesh that has caused me to be in constant agonizing pain for the past several years. But you're right, I don't know what is happening in my own body, thousands of other people don't know what is happening to their bodies, it's just the tv commercials that have convinced me that I can't work, can't actively play with my grandkids, can't have intimacy without agonizing pain and basically have had my life destroyed. Why if it wasn't for the TV, I wouldn't have noticed that I could do all of those things before the mesh and not after :roll: And the thousands of other people who have had the exact same experience - obviously they are just being bamboozled by the people on the tv commercials. Because we are all idiots without a fancy degree, obviously we are stupid. Think "critically" ? Seriously, fuck you. You are exactly what is wrong with the medical establishment and why you aren't trusted. You can't see past your own arrogance to see where you are ignorant. And gee, how crazy to get "emotional" when it is your own life that is a constant nightmare caused by something the medical experts ( or their owners ) think is just awesome. Even if the rates of complications and adverse effects is relatively low for any drug or device -- it matters to the people who do have the complications and "adverse events". :angry-banghead: But no, we should all just trust the smart doctor, because they are never ever wrong. :wtf:

eta: Oh, and the bleeting about having proof through scientific studies, not personal experience - go use your extensive training and oh so superior knowledge to look up the process for how the various forms of mesh were approved and the loopholes that were used. And while you're at it look up the FDA warnings regarding mesh. Or the FDA warnings regarding many other drugs. Also, the slightest little bit of common sense would tell you that adverse effects are going to impact individuals first -- and then eventually, if your owners allow it, there will be studies to see how common the complications and side effects are.

[OkToBeTakei]

You know just Wow. Not to confuse the two discussions, vaccinations and mistrust.

But did somebody just quibble over numbers? Because I am sure the grieving family members of a Vioxx cardiac victim are very thrilled with their compensation and that the numbers might be wrong.

[mrs]

Mrs2004 I am sorry you are going through so much pain. It is incredibly frustrating having to deal with a chronic illness or pain. I am just coming to terms with being diagnosed with a chronic illness. Its hard. :(

On the topic of vaccinations I do not have children so I have not done my research. Does the price of vaccinations affect the number of children vaccinated? (Not that it would make a difference to me if I do have kids. But I could see the price affecting the number of vaccinations in poorer families or developing countries.)

[Arete]

Mrs2004 I am sorry you are going through so much pain. It is incredibly frustrating having to deal with a chronic illness or pain. I am just coming to terms with being diagnosed with a chronic illness. Its hard. :(

On the topic of vaccinations I do not have children so I have not done my research. Does the price of vaccinations affect the number of children vaccinated? (Not that it would make a difference to me if I do have kids. But I could see the price affecting the number of vaccinations in poorer families or developing countries.)

I don't know about other states, but in mine, Medicaid covers all childhood vaccinations. So yes, the poorest children are covered. And somehow parents who send their children to public school manage to get them all the required vaccinations even when they don't qualify for Medicaid. It's the parents on both the far right and left who have supposed health or cultural concerns about vaccines with 50 years of safety records that don't immunize.

Oh, and in my geographic area there is an outbreak of measles among Haredi (ultra Orthodox) Jews that has already caused several miscarriages. I believe in this particular outbreak, they may not consider the components of the vaccine kosher.

[ThrK]

Um, the surgical mesh that has caused me to be in constant agonizing pain for the past several years. ...

I believe she was referring to material and location/use. I'm not super up-to-date on surgical mesh techniques, myself, but I'm pretty sure that certain types of dissolving mesh have been in use for a long time (particularly for hernia repairs, perhaps?), while permanent mesh used for pelvic prolapse is much newer and has more issues.

At any rate, "surgical mesh" refers to tons of materials and techniques with a huge variance in efficacy, morbidity, and just generally amount of cases it's been used in, so stating that surgical mesh is bad as a blanket statement isn't particularly useful.

Sorry if I'm coming off as mean; I don't mean to but the whole lack of body language thing can do that. I'm a chronic pain patient myself, and I can't imagine how must more it would suck if it were due to something potentially avoidable like your surgery rather than my shitty genetics. :?

[Mama Mia]

I believe she was referring to material and location/use. I'm not super up-to-date on surgical mesh techniques, myself, but I'm pretty sure that certain types of dissolving mesh have been in use for a long time (particularly for hernia repairs, perhaps?), while permanent mesh used for pelvic prolapse is much newer and has more issues.

At any rate, "surgical mesh" refers to tons of materials and techniques with a huge variance in efficacy, morbidity, and just generally amount of cases it's been used in, so stating that surgical mesh is bad as a blanket statement isn't particularly useful.

Sorry if I'm coming off as mean; I don't mean to but the whole lack of body language thing can do that. I'm a chronic pain patient myself, and I can't imagine how must more it would suck if it were due to something potentially avoidable like your surgery rather than my shitty genetics. :?

Well, since here original comment included a typically condescending and ignorant spiel about listening to the TV ads, I'm assuming she actually was talking about the pelvic organ mesh. Actually mine was hernia mesh, that is made out of the same material as the pelvic organ mesh, and which causes chronic pain in an estimated 20- 30% of the people it is used on. But because the hernias don't generally reoccur it is considered a "success". The dismissive attitude of many of the medical "professionals" is what boggles my mind. They truly seem to see people as nothing more than statistical data, not actual human beings whose lives can be ruined. The dismissive, offhand comment about Vioxx is just one example. And the blindness to their arrogance is just astounding. And they don't seem capable of comprehending that this dismissive, careless attitude is part of what causes people to be suspicious of anything they have to offer. If they could, possibly, admit that they are sometimes proven wrong, or that they don't know everything, they might get a better chance at buy in.

[So Many Lies]

I have recently seen some interesting beliefs about children who have caught these terrible diseases, lived and now, supposedly, have had awesome personality transformations as a result :s

If they mean whooping cough it could be the result of asphixiation but of course they'll twist it around to suit the cause.

[ThrK]

Well, since here original comment included a typically condescending and ignorant spiel about listening to the TV ads, I'm assuming she actually was talking about the pelvic organ mesh. Actually mine was hernia mesh, that is made out of the same material as the pelvic organ mesh, and which causes chronic pain in an estimated 20- 30% of the people it is used on. But because the hernias don't generally reoccur it is considered a "success". The dismissive attitude of many of the medical "professionals" is what boggles my mind. They truly seem to see people as nothing more than statistical data, not actual human beings whose lives can be ruined. The dismissive, offhand comment about Vioxx is just one example. And the blindness to their arrogance is just astounding. And they don't seem capable of comprehending that this dismissive, careless attitude is part of what causes people to be suspicious of anything they have to offer. If they could, possibly, admit that they are sometimes proven wrong, or that they don't know everything, they might get a better chance at buy in.

I'm new to the board so if condescension is a typical response of the other poster, I didn't know that. Sorry your hernia surgery was so awful; the only person I know who had a hernia mesh had a temporary one, which just dissolved and worked out much better than yours did.

Some doctors are assholes. Some aren't. Surgical specialties seem to have an extra high level of jerks. Sorry your experiences have been so bad. If you ever have the time/patience/energy/resources/insurance coverage to do find one, there are amazing doctors out there. (And sometimes they even have an opening to accept new patients!)

I'm actually in the process of applying to med school, and sadly the whole process is not very "nice person" friendly. I wish that as someone whose been dealing with a chronic illness/pain condition for a decade--in a country where chronic illness is a major public health issue (and women with chronic pain is also a big thing)--I could actually discuss my experiences as a positive factor in my application process, but that is not the case. The bias against us is really too strong to risk it, but I hope to someday try and be like Elyn Saks for chronic pain folk in the medical community. (Dream big, right?)

Anyway TL;DR: it's tough stuff, and I'm sorry you're dealing with some of the worst aspects of medicine.

[Mama Mia]

I'm new to the board so if condescension is a typical response of the other poster, I didn't know that. Sorry your hernia surgery was so awful; the only person I know who had a hernia mesh had a temporary one, which just dissolved and worked out much better than yours did.

Some doctors are assholes. Some aren't. Surgical specialties seem to have an extra high level of jerks. Sorry your experiences have been so bad. If you ever have the time/patience/energy/resources/insurance coverage to do find one, there are amazing doctors out there. (And sometimes they even have an opening to accept new patients!)

I'm actually in the process of applying to med school, and sadly the whole process is not very "nice person" friendly. I wish that as someone whose been dealing with a chronic illness/pain condition for a decade--in a country where chronic illness is a major public health issue (and women with chronic pain is also a big thing)--I could actually discuss my experiences as a positive factor in my application process, but that is not the case. The bias against us is really too strong to risk it, but I hope to someday try and be like Elyn Saks for chronic pain folk in the medical community. (Dream big, right?)

Anyway TL;DR: it's tough stuff, and I'm sorry you're dealing with some of the worst aspects of medicine.

Thank you for the compassionate response. I think your experience will help to make you a great doctor.