American Right Wing Christianity

[debrand]

In the title I think that I narrowed down the type of Christianity that I want to discuss.

It seems to me that Christianity is different in parts of the United States compared to the rest of the world. I wanted a thread to discuss it and why it is different but I don't know where to start.

Most Christians that I know consider themselves to be 'biblical' Christians and don't consider all self claimed Christians to be Christians. Being biblical is a big deal. YewChapel and Burris would not be Christian in their thinking. Poor, sweet MamaJuneBug would be doomed to an eternity of torture in the pits of hell :lol:

Saved by grace/faith is also a big deal. (I can no longer remember if the word is faith or grace) Most people believe that no one earns salvation that it is a free gift but you have to accept the gift first. You can tell a Christian, though, by their actions so there is a lot of judgement about how people act. This is where dress, purity etc comes into play. None of the people that I know would claim your dress, for example, saves you but you wouldn't be a 'real' Christian if you dressed or acted a certain way

Lots of talk about the end of the world. Many Christians that I know are really, really excited about Jesus coming back and killing most of mankind. :cry: I've called friends out on their glee and they explain that they aren't really happy about people dying just about their meeting Jesus. However, you can meet Jesus when you are dead so why get happy about the end of the world?

Helping the poor is not a something the government should do. Charity is a voluntary act. However, the government should stop abortion and gay marriage.

Evangelism is big, not only toward non believers but other Christians as well.

Israel should be helped at all costs.

Some right wing Christians seem to confuse extreme patriotism with religion. In their eyes, you can't be a real American if you aren't a Christian.There is a lot of confusion about American history and Christianity.

I am curious about the reason that a portion of the United States worships such a cruel god when the rest of Christianity seems not to do so. What is there different about the culture where I grew up? Why did Christianity develop different in parts of the south and why does this type of negative Christianity have such a hold on Republicans here?

[Arete]

Lots of good points to ponder here. Before I hit the day job, I want to touch briefly on one.

If you have to pick a book in the NT canon that has the least influence and impact on Eastern Orthodox Christianity, it is the book of Revelation. We are taught that Revelation was literally the last book added to the official canon, because there was so much disagreement on whether it belonged there or not. Revelation is not used in any of the liturgical readings in the Orthodox church. It is not used for Sunday sermons. It is explained as both symbolic and cryptic, and that frankly we never fully understood all the symbolism from the time it started circulating in the Christian world. This history means Orthodoxy has no theology of a "Rapture", does not make predictions about when or whether the world will end, and does not require that the modern state of Israel needs to be supported as a matter of theology or setting the stage for the Second Coming.

I am going to assume that the nature of the two Great Awakenings in the United States in the 18th and 19th (?) century catapulted Revelation to high prominence among evangelicals. Perhaps in was a necessity in a society expanding along an essentially lawless frontier to be reminded that just because there was no government presence, there was a divine presence that would eventually hold you to account. Just my particular musing there. The tent revivals where Revelation was used also relied on it heavily for imagery to scare people. In non liturgical settings, you have to use other methods to envoke the divine power.

Regardless, the evangelical obsession with using Revelation to dictate government policy is absolutely unheard of in the rest of the Christian world. Got to go.

[formergothardite]

Debrand, don't you live in NC? Probably explains why the Christians I am surrounded by are like the Christians you described. :lol: Most of the Free Jinger Christians are on the wide path to hell according to most of the churches around here. I do often wonder why we go the crazy Christians here.

[debrand]

Debrand, don't you live in NC? Probably explains why the Christians I am surrounded by are like the Christians you described. :lol: Most of the Free Jinger Christians are on the wide path to hell according to most of the churches around here. I do often wonder why we go the crazy Christians here.

Yep. My mom moved to NC when I was five weeks old so this is my childhood home.

[AVENues]

I notice that there are a lot of FJ-ers from NC!

[dpndetfarm]

"Lots of talk about the end of the world. Many Christians that I know are really, really excited about Jesus coming back and killing most of mankind. I've called friends out on their glee and they explain that they aren't really happy about people dying just about their meeting Jesus. However, you can meet Jesus when you are dead so why get happy about the end of the world?"

This is the rapture, right?

Because I find this whole idea so ridiculous in the first place and then so pompous and selfagrandizing when these people are disappointed that the rapture didn't happen because they are still here, I tell them that the rapture did happen, but the only people chosen were some homeless guys living under a bridge in Florida and most of the prostitutes in Central Park.*

The idea that these people assume they are chosen which I think falls under one of the big no no sins (pride) makes my brain hurt, but we have a group of them in my town. They are free evangelicals of some sort.

*sorry about the torturous sentence.

[Sobeknofret]

Ugh. Revelations, my least favorite book in the Bible. I'm a Christian, and I'll be perfectly honest: I don't understand or like it, and I've never read or heard a theologian who has been able to explain it in a way that makes any kind of sense to me or works with the rest of the NT. I think strict Calvinists have brought it into prominence because it justifies their theology; sinners in the hands of an angry God, depravity, wrath, and all that punitive stuff Calvinists seem to go in for.

This is a really interesting topic. I need to think about this a bit more.

[uber frau]

I think strict Calvinists have brought it into prominence because it justifies their theology; sinners in the hands of an angry God, depravity, wrath, and all that punitive stuff Calvinists to go in for.

This is a really interesting topic. I need to think about this a bit more.

I think it's more of a Baptist thing TBH. I grew up fundie Calvinist and there was very little emphasis put on Revelation. There was definitely a belief in God sorting out everyone out in the end and a big emphasis on the doctrine of divine election but I didn't know ppl actually believed in a literal millennium and rapture until i discovered discussion forums on the internet (which is remarkable considering how extensive and in depth our religious education was. We discussing supra and infra lapsarianism at the age of 12, FFS .)

[clone]

My grandparents grew up in rural Arkansas. My great grandparents had a farm there. They had hired hands, but they didn't have a lot of money. The kids helped out on the farm. It was a frugal life and not carefree. My grandmother was raised in a more sedate/stern Christian environment. I think my great grandfather was Methodist, but old school Methodist. My great grandmother was Jehovah's Witness. After my grandmother graduated and got married she went to an Assembly of God service and knew instantly that it was for her. She loved the emotional displays, the "personal relationship with God", the fervor. I think that brand of Christianity provided hope, excitement, joy, a sense of purpose in all the end time stuff, a promise of reward after hard, thankless work on Earth. I think a lot of adherents probably came from the same sort of place, and then it was passed on an reinforced to kids, grandkids, and so on. Those sects tend to provide a very cathartic experience that can be experienced again and again. "When I die, Hallelujah, by and by, I'll fly away..." No matter what, there's always that light at the end of the tunnel. Rewards in Heaven. It's a heady thing for people who don't have much else.

[RachelB]

Brad Hicks (a former IFB-er turned Pagan) on Live Journal wrote a (5-part?) series constructing a theory of how and why politicized American Right Wing Christianity came into being when it did in the mid 1960s-- in short, as an attempt to turn the Church into an explicitly anti-Communist institution in reaction to ill treatment of missionaries in Communist countries. I'm in the middle of reading it and am finding it really interesting. Here's where it starts:

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/118585.html (scene-setting)

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/118805.html (the 1964 Republican convention)

He talks about the fact that Revelation came at that point to have much more prominence in how biblical literalists talked about salvation than Matthew 25:31-46 (the sheep and goats) did, even though the tendency within American Christianity prior to that point had been to give primacy to the Gospels.

[darareaksmey]

My grandparents grew up in rural Arkansas. My great grandparents had a farm there. They had hired hands, but they didn't have a lot of money. The kids helped out on the farm. It was a frugal life and not carefree. My grandmother was raised in a more sedate/stern Christian environment. I think my great grandfather was Methodist, but old school Methodist. My great grandmother was Jehovah's Witness. After my grandmother graduated and got married she went to an Assembly of God service and knew instantly that it was for her. She loved the emotional displays, the "personal relationship with God", the fervor. I think that brand of Christianity provided hope, excitement, joy, a sense of purpose in all the end time stuff, a promise of reward after hard, thankless work on Earth. I think a lot of adherents probably came from the same sort of place, and then it was passed on an reinforced to kids, grandkids, and so on. Those sects tend to provide a very cathartic experience that can be experienced again and again. "When I die, Hallelujah, by and by, I'll fly away..." No matter what, there's always that light at the end of the tunnel. Rewards in Heaven. It's a heady thing for people who don't have much else.

I think you have nailed it, clone. It has less to do with where in the country you are than it does with the need for something good to look forward to. People living in tight circumstances, or out-and-out poverty, certainly needed something to hold onto. They weren't getting it from being in the fields from sun-up to sundown 6 days a week. And perhaps they weren't getting it in mainline churches, which were more reserved in their worship. If drudgery, hunger and an early demise aer all you really have to look forward to, it must be/have been attractive to hear a fiery preacher talk about how you will be rewarded some day.

[OkToBeTakei]

Please excuse my curiosity and probable ignorance, but this is a great thread and there are so many misconceptions I probably have and many things I have never understood.

For a frame of reference I was born Scottish and born catholic. I never really viewed them as different strangely. No more than I can change my place of birth it never occurred to me that I could change my religious identity.

Why are there so many types of church? Why do people choose a church? Why can people if they do not like a particular church either make their own or shop about for one they like? Is it not a religion rather than individual congregations? I really do not understand that.

I respect that people choose a path or religion that suits their needs, faith and as mentioned up thread which gives them hope. Personally after I realised that really my default religion would never meet what my personal beliefs were toward my fellow humans I chose to live my life accordingly rather than try find a religion to suit my ideology. I suppose I think it would be convenient if that makes sense. In my demographic I know very few people who 'change' religion. Not that it does not happen. But I rarely hear of people looking for a church. You go to the one assigned to your religion.

Much of US right wing christianity seems inexplicably linked with politics which considering the huge emphasis of separation of church and state is baffling. There is far less emphasis on religion in my country where there is no separation. I tend to think we have forgotten we have a state religion. I actually can't tell you what it is.

The fundies we snark on appear to me, to just use religion as an excuse to live their lives the way they want and use it to excuse their natural bigotry and ignorance.

I totally do not understand 'being saved.' Or the concept of 'accepting Jesus.'

When I think of 'fire and brimstone' it is always American preachers on TV. (From back in the 80's and 90's. My friends and I were fascinated, horrified and pretty gobsmacked at the same time.) Like most things American we were totally entranced.

Mormons. IFB SB. So many acronyms. Where I grew up you were either catholic, protestant, Jewish or exotically Islam. Such a narrow view :/

[RachelB]

Please excuse my curiosity and probable ignorance, but this is a great thread and there are so many misconceptions I probably have and many things I have never understood.

For a frame of reference I was born Scottish and born catholic. I never really viewed them as different strangely. No more than I can change my place of birth it never occurred to me that I could change my religious identity.

Why are there so many types of church? Why do people choose a church? Why can people if they do not like a particular church either make their own or shop about for one they like? Is it not a religion rather than individual congregations? I really do not understand that.

I respect that people choose a path or religion that suits their needs, faith and as mentioned up thread which gives them hope. Personally after I realised that really my default religion would never meet what my personal beliefs were toward my fellow humans I chose to live my life accordingly rather than try find a religion to suit my ideology. I suppose I think it would be convenient if that makes sense. In my demographic I know very few people who 'change' religion. Not that it does not happen. But I rarely hear of people looking for a church. You go to the one assigned to your religion.

Much of US right wing christianity seems inexplicably linked with politics which considering the huge emphasis of separation of church and state is baffling. There is far less emphasis on religion in my country where there is no separation. I tend to think we have forgotten we have a state religion. I actually can't tell you what it is.

The fundies we snark on appear to me, to just use religion as an excuse to live their lives the way they want and use it to excuse their natural bigotry and ignorance.

I totally do not understand 'being saved.' Or the concept of 'accepting Jesus.'

When I think of 'fire and brimstone' it is always American preachers on TV. (From back in the 80's and 90's. My friends and I were fascinated, horrified and pretty gobsmacked at the same time.) Like most things American we were totally entranced.

Mormons. IFB SB. So many acronyms. Where I grew up you were either catholic, protestant, Jewish or exotically Islam. Such a narrow view :/

OKTBT, I don't know if this will be illuminating or confusing, but I went "looking for a church" when I moved to where I live now.

When I lived in a little town, and my parents were the pastors of one of its congregations, I went where my parents worked. When I went to college, there were many church options-- including two congregations within the denomination I grew up in (United Church of Christ; I think the U.K. equivalent is called the United Church, but whatever-- liberal protestant). I went to the one I could walk to. The year after college, I lived in another city and worked as a secretary for a congregation within the denomination I grew up in, and attended where I worked.

When I moved to where I live now, there were five churches within the denomination I grew up in. None felt like home. I visited each a few times, then started trying out other churches on my bus line. I really like the place I've been going for the last six years (a reconciling (i.e., QUILTBAG-friendly) Methodist congregation). I picked it because I heard the pastor give a brief sermon on forgiveness at an ecumenical Good Friday service and thought, "I want to hear more of what she has to say."

But I haven't joined, because I still feel culturally U.C.C. To someone who's neither U.C.C. nor Methodist, there's only one substantive difference between these two protestant denominations: the U.C.C. as a denomination ordains clergy who are gender or sexual minorities and performs same-sex marriage services. I don't feel right about actually officially joining a congregation if the denomination it belongs to discriminates against people who are gender or sexual minorities, even if the congregation itself doesn't discriminate. The other differences, I think you'd have to have grown up in one or the other to notice: The liturgy for communion is different, if only slightly. So are the creeds. Methodists love 19th-century hymns, which are easier for congregational singing. The U.C.C. congregations I've attended are much more into polyphonic hymns, which are wonderful if you've got a good choir but kind of a bummer if you can't cover all the vocal parts.

Edited to add: I can't help you with the "accepting Jesus" thing. In both of the church traditions I'm most familiar with, Jesus accepts you-- it's not the other way around.

[OkToBeTakei]

OKTBT, I don't know if this will be illuminating or confusing, but I went "looking for a church" when I moved to where I live now.

When I lived in a little town, and my parents were the pastors of one of its congregations, I went where my parents worked. When I went to college, there were many church options-- including two congregations within the denomination I grew up in (United Church of Christ; I think the U.K. equivalent is called the United Church, but whatever-- liberal protestant). I went to the one I could walk to. The year after college, I lived in another city and worked as a secretary for a congregation within the denomination I grew up in, and attended where I worked.

When I moved to where I live now, there were five churches within the denomination I grew up in. None felt like home. I visited each a few times, then started trying out other churches on my bus line. I really like the place I've been going for the last six years (a reconciling (i.e., QUILTBAG-friendly) Methodist congregation). I picked it because I heard the pastor give a brief sermon on forgiveness at an ecumenical Good Friday service and thought, "I want to hear more of what she has to say."

But I haven't joined, because I still feel culturally U.C.C. To someone who's neither U.C.C. nor Methodist, there's only one substantive difference between these two protestant denominations: the U.C.C. as a denomination ordains clergy who are gender or sexual minorities and performs same-sex marriage services. I don't feel right about actually officially joining a congregation if the denomination it belongs to discriminates against people who are gender or sexual minorities, even if the congregation itself doesn't discriminate. The other differences, I think you'd have to have grown up in one or the other to notice: The liturgy for communion is different, if only slightly. So are the creeds. Methodists love 19th-century hymns, which are easier for congregational singing. The U.C.C. congregations I've attended are much more into polyphonic hymns, which are wonderful if you've got a good choir but kind of a bummer if you can't cover all the vocal parts.

Edited to add: I can't help you with the "accepting Jesus" thing. In both of the church traditions I'm most familiar with, Jesus accepts you-- it's not the other way around.

You are right I am probably even more confused :lol:

But I do want to express that I totally respect the comfort and hope people get from their faith, whatever it is they choose.

To some extent you do though feel as I do. As you said you cannot culturally identify although you do ideologically.

The concept of five churches on a bus line is just so bizarre to me. Pretty cool, though :lol:

[Minerva]

OKTBT, my hypothesis is that there are people who need religion, and people who just don't. And different people need different things from their religion. Some people are deeply uncomfortable with not knowing the secrets of the universe, some people are very afraid of death, some people have had what they believe to be supernatural experiences, whereas some people need simpler things like a group to belong to, or to feel like they're carrying on their family's traditions. If what you want from religion is a sense of being in touch with your culture or ancestors, then it makes sense to stick with what you were brought up in. Whereas if you need to calm your anxieties about, say, the meaning of life, you'll want to look for what makes the most sense to you theologically. I could certainly see people who were raised in constant fear of Hell leaning towards the latter.

I feel that I need religion, despite being agnostic on an intellectual level, because I function better with rituals in my life (and I find make-believe very comforting.) The church I grew up in is pro-LGBT, pro-choice, and generally very progressive, so I've never felt the need to change denominations, but if it wasn't any of those things, I'd take my ritual-seeking self elsewhere. Likewise, if the UCC beliefs and rituals ever stop doing it for me, I'd start shopping around (and probably consider becoming Pagan.)

[Irishy]

I totally do not understand 'being saved.' Or the concept of 'accepting Jesus.'

Neither do I. And I'd never heard of "the rapture" until I started reading here. It's all bonkers frankly.

[formergothardite]

Neither do I. And I'd never heard of "the rapture" until I started reading here. It's all bonkers frankly.

Debrand and I need to host some sort of religious right wing Christianity tour. Come to NC and visit everything from the mega churches with strobe lights and rock bands to the tiny snake handling churches! You get to experience total strangers asking you what church you go to, not being able to buy alcohol on Sundays or only be able to buy it after noon on Sundays, more churches than you can imagine and people coming up to you while you are out trying to save your soul!

[GenerationCedarchip]

I think it's more of a Baptist thing TBH. I grew up fundie Calvinist and there was very little emphasis put on Revelation. There was definitely a belief in God sorting out everyone out in the end and a big emphasis on the doctrine of divine election but I didn't know ppl actually believed in a literal millennium and rapture until i discovered discussion forums on the internet (which is remarkable considering how extensive and in depth our religious education was. We discussing supra and infra lapsarianism at the age of 12, FFS .)

Oh yes. This, a hundred times this. I think there are really two major strands of American right wing Christianity - the pentecostal/baptist with emphasis on prophecy, Revelations, second coming, etc.. and the Calvinist - lots more emphasis on pretty much everything else in the Bible and much talk of duty/sanctification. I was also fundie Calvinist growing up and did not encounter much of the baptist wing of things until college - it was pretty eye-opening to hear all about the rapture from girls in my dorm.

[OkToBeTakei]

So is the 'rapture' solely of American religious belief or do other cultures believe this? I honestly thought 'tribulation' was a Star Trek thing!! :D

I'll sign up for formerg's tour :lol:

[formergothardite]

So is the 'rapture' solely of American religious belief or do other cultures believe this? I honestly thought 'tribulation' was a Star Trek thing!! :D

I'll sign up for formerg's tour :lol:

We will start the tour off at this guy's church:

NCW9-MglCsw

Alcohol will be provided so that tour guest will be able to make it through the service. By the way, the "haters" he is speaking of include the people that pointed out that his church finances are sort of shady.

[SpeakNow]

We will start the tour off at this guy's church:

NCW9-MglCsw

Alcohol will be provided so that tour guest will be able to make it through the service. By the way, the "haters" he is speaking of include the people that pointed out that his church finances are sort of shady.

I can do a second leg of the tour in the lovely state of TN. We have a whole neighborhood of people that have 180 and living waters bumper stickers.

[formergothardite]

I can do a second leg of the tour in the lovely state of TN. We have a whole neighborhood of people that have 180 and living waters bumper stickers.

Sure! We could do the whole South. Lord knows each state has it's own brand of religious crazy. :lol:

What is 180? I've seen those bumper stickers around here.

[thoughtful]

So is the 'rapture' solely of American religious belief or do other cultures believe this? I honestly thought 'tribulation' was a Star Trek thing!! :D

No, that's "tribble-ulation."

I've spent all of my almost-60 years in the US, and have never met the kind of Christians Debrand described - I've met lots of Protestants and Catholics, some born-again folks, Amish, and the occasional Mormon, but not the kinds of Evangelicals, fundies, Rapture-lovers, and Calvinists we discuss here. So some of it may be regional.

I've been reading American Theocracy, and the author, Kevin Phillips, talks about a "Southernizing" of American Christianity, due to several factors, that has spread the Southern "brand" of religion (for want of a better way to put it) to the Midwest and West, and into government.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Theocrac ... 0143038281

[OkToBeTakei]

Sure! We could do the whole South. Lord knows each state has it's own brand of religious crazy. :lol:

What is 180? I've seen those bumper stickers around here.

Ok I'll come. But just to warn you I have no idea how I would be able to keep a straight face. I would be a total embarrassment, especially if I thought the people around me were digging this crap, it would crack me up :lol:

Alcohol plus my inability to control my laughter BAD combo :D

[formergothardite]

I know people who go to Elevation Church and they totally take that guy very, very seriously. They are convinced that if I would just start watching him preach on TV I would believe. I cannot take that guy seriously. I'm pretty sure he is eventually end up in some big scandal where he was stealing money, having an affair or both.