NY area Hasidics and the local school system

[flyawaystray]

I live in the Lawrence School District. I graduated from LHS. There are always problems when it comes to proposals and budgets, thanks to the Orthodox Jews.

The bid for no. 6 school was shot down. The Orthodox vote en masse, so that's what happened. The medical center would have provided jobs and income for the area. The part about the green space is BS. Cedarhurst Park is very nice and big, and I know there are other parks as well.

[France Nolan]

I read (can't remember where, maybe the Patch?) that the Orthodox community wants to turn No. 6 school into another yeshiva.

[flyawaystray]

That would make sense. The buy up businesses and other properties and turn them in yeshivas. And there's already so many of them.

[rollmeover]

I thought of an analogy to explain the traffic situation here.

Imagine being a rat, and you're in a maze. There's only so many ways to get in and out. Now imagine that there are 25 other rats cramped in this maze, and it's very difficult to move or go anywhere due to the limited space. That is how the roads are here.

Also, parking is metered so that adds a whole other problem.

I'm so sorry the terrible Jewish people are breeding and having the temerity to think they can be like other citizens and drive a vehicle. That must be just so difficult for you. I hope you manage to escape your living hell soon. In my area, there are lots of non-jewish people who also breed and also drive cars and also cause congestion, but that is not an issue for me because, well, they aren't Jewish.

And, for what it's worth, using a rat analogy while complaining about Jewish people "taking over" and spreading and driving the nice people out of a neighbourhood is not offensive at all. Really.

[flyawaystray]

Okay, except to get through the area, I have to go through the shopping districts (as I said, there's really no way around or else I'd avoid traffic at all costs), and *gasp* nearly everyone in that area doing their shopping or living in that neighborhood is Orthodox (as well as in the surrounding neighborhoods because each town has its own shopping district) Funny that, eh? I also worked in a retail store in said business district for a number of years. 99 percent of my customers were Orthodox.

And fyi, I was born Jewish (my mom is Jewish, so I am by birth, a Jew). I've attended Jewish day camps where you have prove you're Jewish. It's not offensive to say that they have a lot of kids.

Yes, I can't wait to get out of here for a number of reasons.

I only used the rat analogy because I can't think of any other way to describe the roads and stuff like that.

[longskirts]

Here's a Hasid who's a principal in a public school serving mostly non-Jewish minorities:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/nyreg ... wanted=all

Some of his initiatives may be controversial, but he's certainly not trying to gut the school. Guess they're not all the same after all.

[longskirts]

Okay, except to get through the area, I have to go through the shopping districts (as I said, there's really no way around or else I'd avoid traffic at all costs), and *gasp* nearly everyone in that area doing their shopping or living in that neighborhood is Orthodox (as well as in the surrounding neighborhoods because each town has its own shopping district) Funny that, eh? I also worked in a retail store in said business district for a number of years. 99 percent of my customers were Orthodox.

And that bothers you why? Would you like it better if 99 percent were Presbyterian?

[France Nolan]

The demographic shift wouldn't trouble me if it weren't for the way public schools/services are affected. Orthodox people have a right to exist, and they have a right to educate their children as they see fit/appropriate. I don't have a problem with towns/areas being predominantly Orthodox unless that starts to infringe on other residents' rights.

I'm not talking about traffic or shopping here, I'm talking about ensuring that other kids can have quality educations. I'm talking about public buses (see the article I posted about Brooklyn) being segregated by gender.

[flyawaystray]

That doesn't bother me at all, the other poster was saying that other people do their shopping and can cause congestion as well, but that's not really true of where I live. I was correcting them.

I'd be complaining about traffic regardless of where it comes from, Orthodox or not. When I am in other high traffic areas such as malls, I'm just as annoyed at other people.

[2xx1xy1JD]

That doesn't bother me at all, the other poster was saying that other people do their shopping and can cause congestion as well, but that's not really true of where I live. I was correcting them.

I'd be complaining about traffic regardless of where it comes from, Orthodox or not. When I am in other high traffic areas such as malls, I'm just as annoyed at other people.

PEOPLE can cause traffic. It isn't a religious issue, it's a municipal land-use issue in Long Island. The people may happen to be Orthodox Jews near you but the same issues come up with other groups, religious or not, any time that there is a demographic shift and increased density.

Serious issues have been raised in this thread. Kvetching about traffic and shopping is petty and detracts from real concerns.

[flyawaystray]

Eh, you'd get if you lived here. It seems like a minor concern but is in fact a major one when there's only one main road in and out of the area and there's no way to avoid the traffic, plus lots of accidents and such, but that has nothing to do with Orthodox people, just negligence. And some of these accidents close the road down, which makes it even harder to get through.

There is a major highway which connects my town to JFK airport (it only connects to Queens and back, not the other areas of the 5 towns) which gets backed up really badly because again, there's one way in and only one way out. The people who don't want to pay the toll to get to Queens go the way of this highway and that traffic is nightmare inducing, plus again, lots of accidents on that highway. This is a separate issue as it's not located within an Orthodox neighborhoods.

When I get to my boyfriend's house though, there's never any traffic on the road by his house and it's amazing at the difference.

[France Nolan]

I'm sorry, but the traffic on most of LI is shitty. I sit in gridlock traffic every day going to and from work, and I don't drive through any predominantly Orthodox areas. Our highway system is God awful (Southern State and LIE, I'm looking at you).

The traffic fixation has less to do with the Orthodox communities and more to do with our terrible roads, drivers, and the number of commuters. I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame one segment of the population for the traffic woes. Are there parts of Long Island that are less congested than the Five Towns? Yes. Are there parts that are just as congested and are home to people of other races, religions, etc.? Yup.

[flyawaystray]

I already said that there are traffic problems not related to Orthodox Jews. Also, you're talking about major highways. I am talking about residential areas. There's no reason for anyone in the suburbs of LI to be sitting in 20-30 mins of traffic just to get one town over.

I don't know off any other crowded residential areas (not including the 5 boroughs here, we all know Queens is a nightmare), and I've been all over LI. Rockville Center isn't much fun to park in since it's usually residents only parking and meters, but driving through it is a breeze compared to dealing with the congestion of 878 (which is the traffic I have to sit through to get from my town to the next town over, and the distance is maybe a quarter of a mile if that), and basically any road in Cedarhurst.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Frances - thanks for clarifying that this is a Long Island traffic issue, not a religious issue.

Out of curiosity - why would the number of children in a family affect the amount of traffic? Little kids don't drive. The reason why we get increased traffic in some areas has to do with extended families moving into either burbs with single-family homes (because that is the only practical way to afford a piece of the Canadian dream), or into apartments that were formerly adult-only below banning children was disallowed by human rights laws.

[flyawaystray]

Because the kids grow up, stay in the area, have more kids, and so on. So let's say a family of two moves in. They have four kids. That means there's four to six other cars on the road now. Orthodox Jews tend to live in areas where there's an established Orthodox area.

And these towns are the burbs. I'm not sure if that's clear or not. All of the 5 towns is considered suburbs, as well as the majority of Long Island.

Honestly, unless I've been on the Belt or another highway (SSP, Robert Moses, LIE, 878, etc), there's not much traffic in the residential areas, but I've somehow gotten stuck in a place that is like that. I really hate where I live (the reason has nothing to do with religion) because again, there's one way in and one way out unless you're driving to Queens, which I don't do. And it's frustrating.

The only good thing I like is the fact that it only takes 30-40 mins to get to Manhattan.

And just to make my point, my boyfriend lives in one of the most populated towns in the county and the traffic is still not as bad as it is where I live.

But as you guys have pointed out, I talk way too much about traffic and I really should probably shut about about it now.

[sparkles]

Lively discussion here. I didn't bail; work intervened.

Yes, Long Island is just one huge clusterfuck of a traffic jam, from one end to the other, and there's nothing about it that's the fault of any religion--although you CAN blame Moses, only his first name is Robert). The congestion here is truly epic. Wanna go to the Hamptons? ONE ROAD, BABY! The highway system, such that it is, dates back to the 40s/50s with few changes or expansions. There are three east/west highways, the LIE (they don't call it the Long Island Distressway for nuthin), the Southern State and the Northern State. If I remember correctly, there are NO north/south highways that go from the Sound to the Atlantic--all of them are cut off at some point short of the shore. So while LI in general is a traffic nightmare, some areas are definitely worse than others the further you get from a main artery. Long Beach, for example, which was devastated because of Sandy. An island that's part of an island, with only one main road in and out. The Five Towns is another one of those areas, poorly served by access roads. It may sound silly to complain about the traffic (and the shopping) but ultimately, it matters because it affects your property values. (When we were house hunting, there were several beautiful homes well within our budget that we turned down because of limited access.) So given the growing population density in the Five Towns, plus the proximity to JFK (lots of "how dare you fly planes over my house?" kerfuffles over the years), and the limited access, Flyaway DOES have a point there. But it's not the issue raised by this thread. That issue is that ONE group--the ultra orthodox on Long Island (and Hasids in other areas)--are exerting undue pressure and influence to change local politics in ways that are detrimental to all but themselves. This isn't a matter of opinion; it's a matter of fact.

I mistrust and take issue with all fundamentalist groups, regardless of race, creed or color--equal opportunity, that's me. But in some ways, the ultra Orthodox/Hasids are worse that the Christian fundies. The Christians, at least, WANT to bring you into the fold. The ultra Orthodox, on the other hand, don't. They don't want to convert you, you're not welcome in their neighborhoods and they couldn't give two shits about you, even if you're a member of the tribe (and although I'm a lifelong atheist, I will ALWAYS be a Jew. It's part of my culture and upbringing and although I 100% reject it on a religious basis, I yam what I yam, no getting around it. You can take the girl out of the Jew but you can't take the Jew out of the girl) except to use you to get what they want. If they trample over your rights, decimate your schools, cripple the infrastructure of your communities, tough titty. The message they give is quite straightforward--"Move." It doesn't make them a very likable or sympathetic bunch, yanno?

ETA: Nassau County, were the Five Town is/are located, is always among the top 5 counties in the US with the highest property taxes. You'd THINK we'd have a stellar infrastructure considering how everyone is being bled dry. You would be WRONG. The county is close to defaulting.

[flyawaystray]

Sparkles, the windows rattle when a plane flies over, although admittedly, the frequency of the planes is not bad at all.

Ugh, the hurricane. F LIPA, man. I still don't have a washer and dryer. Thanks, Sandy. 50k in damage and two cars lost, plus 6 weeks of no power, heat, or hot water in winter = no fun. Thankfully flood insurance is covering all of the damage, and I think homeowner's insurance is going to cover the contents that were lost (such as the washer and dryer), but it might be summer before that money is seen. Sigh.

I was reading an article about the fighting between the different sects of Orthodox, it's sad really.

[France Nolan]

Lively discussion here. I didn't bail; work intervened.

Yes, Long Island is just one huge clusterfuck of a traffic jam, from one end to the other, and there's nothing about it that's the fault of any religion--although you CAN blame Moses, only his first name is Robert). The congestion here is truly epic. Wanna go to the Hamptons? ONE ROAD, BABY! The highway system, such that it is, dates back to the 40s/50s with few changes or expansions. There are three east/west highways, the LIE (they don't call it the Long Island Distressway for nuthin), the Southern State and the Northern State. If I remember correctly, there are NO north/south highways that go from the Sound to the Atlantic--all of them are cut off at some point short of the shore. So while LI in general is a traffic nightmare, some areas are definitely worse than others the further you get from a main artery. Long Beach, for example, which was devastated because of Sandy. An island that's part of an island, with only one main road in and out. The Five Towns is another one of those areas, poorly served by access roads. It may sound silly to complain about the traffic (and the shopping) but ultimately, it matters because it affects your property values. (When we were house hunting, there were several beautiful homes well within our budget that we turned down because of limited access.) So given the growing population density in the Five Towns, plus the proximity to JFK (lots of "how dare you fly planes over my house?" kerfuffles over the years), and the limited access, Flyaway DOES have a point there. But it's not the issue raised by this thread. That issue is that ONE group--the ultra orthodox on Long Island (and Hasids in other areas)--are exerting undue pressure and influence to change local politics in ways that are detrimental to all but themselves. This isn't a matter of opinion; it's a matter of fact.

I mistrust and take issue with all fundamentalist groups, regardless of race, creed or color--equal opportunity, that's me. But in some ways, the ultra Orthodox/Hasids are worse that the Christian fundies. The Christians, at least, WANT to bring you into the fold. The ultra Orthodox, on the other hand, don't. They don't want to convert you, you're not welcome in their neighborhoods and they couldn't give two shits about you, even if you're a member of the tribe (and although I'm a lifelong atheist, I will ALWAYS be a Jew. It's part of my culture and upbringing and although I 100% reject it on a religious basis, I yam what I yam, no getting around it. You can take the girl out of the Jew but you can't take the Jew out of the girl) except to use you to get what they want. If they trample over your rights, decimate your schools, cripple the infrastructure of your communities, tough titty. The message they give is quite straightforward--"Move." It doesn't make them a very likable or sympathetic bunch, yanno?

ETA: Nassau County, were the Five Town is/are located, is always among the top 5 counties in the US with the highest property taxes. You'd THINK we'd have a stellar infrastructure considering how everyone is being bled dry. You would be WRONG. The county is close to defaulting.

We also pay the some of the highest utility bills and we get LIPA with their 30 year old computers. :angry-banghead:

You bring up some good points, and there are legitimate concerns about ultra Orthodox communities infringing on other people's rights. The gutting of the public schools, the use of public funds to send kids to private religious schools in NY (although those laws are also used by Christians, and I take umbrage with that as well), segregation on public buses... there's tension for a reason.

I'm just uncomfortable with laying the traffic issues at the Orthodox communities' feet. On LI we have crappy, crappy infrastructure. We have crappy infrastructure in the Reform Jewish neighborhoods, we have crappy infrastructure in the Catholic neighborhoods... there's crappy infrastructure for everyone involved.

As you said, the Five Towns are particularly ill served by service/major roads. The infrastructure is terrible BUT the infrastructure would be terrible whether Orthodox Jews lived there or Catholics or Reform Jews or Methodists or atheists.

[Mary C Doates]

The East Ramapo School District issue was extensively covered in the local (Westchester and Rockland county, NY) paper:

http://www.lohud.com/assets/pdf/eastramapoday1.pdf

http://www.lohud.com/assets/pdf/eastramapoday2.pdf

(Copies of the articles. The Journal News/lowhud.com website itself has some video links and commentaries from readers)

[TouchMeFall21]

Lively discussion here. I didn't bail; work intervened.

Yes, Long Island is just one huge clusterfuck of a traffic jam, from one end to the other, and there's nothing about it that's the fault of any religion--although you CAN blame Moses, only his first name is Robert). The congestion here is truly epic. Wanna go to the Hamptons? ONE ROAD, BABY! The highway system, such that it is, dates back to the 40s/50s with few changes or expansions. There are three east/west highways, the LIE (they don't call it the Long Island Distressway for nuthin), the Southern State and the Northern State. If I remember correctly, there are NO north/south highways that go from the Sound to the Atlantic--all of them are cut off at some point short of the shore. So while LI in general is a traffic nightmare, some areas are definitely worse than others the further you get from a main arteryg.

If there is one thing i get geekier about than discussing fundies, it's Robert Moses. I've made it through The Power Broker twice. Have you read it? Basically, the entire system was built for "motoring," concieved by a man who'd never personally been behind the wheel. And had enormously racist tendencies... The reason that overpasses are too low for brudges on the southern state is so that jones beach would remain inaccessible to busses and people who relied on public transportation (read: poor people. Minorities).

Sorry, so off topic.

[flyawaystray]

Huh, that's really interesting.

[nylon]

Poor Flyaway. I thought you might be from there. To my knowledge, it's the only area on LI that's been taken over like that. My relatives used to live in Woodmere and my friends and I loved shopping in Cedarhurst. It was such a vibrant community. I'm sure the current Ultra Orthodox residents think it still is, but only for them. For everyone else, venturing in is like a covert mission into hostile territory.

The Five Towns isn't really ultra Orthodox. Shuls like the Young Israel, Beth Sholom, and schools like HAFTR, Shulamith, Rambam are modern Orthodox. More right wing people have been moving in from Brooklyn and Far Rockaway has always been further right. (From the South Shore, not far away.)

Regarding special Ed, the state is not obligated to pay for religious placement just because the kid would have been in religious school. One of the allegations against East Ramapo is improper placement. There was a law mooted to consider "cultural factors" but it never passed. But in practice, these parents do get religious placements paid for, either through placing and then suing to pay (argue pendency--child should not be moved) or various other means. For the Yiddish speaking kids, it's easier, because the parents' refusal to use Bi-Yi means the programs aren't very good and they're able to argue the most auitable placement is private.

East Ramapo has way too many kids in private special Ed for a district its size.

[flyawaystray]

I was reading about old Cedarhurst. Apparently, it was really upscale with loads of designer stores, until the Orthodox Jews made an influx and it changed the dynamic of Cedarhurst and all the nice stores closed in favor of newer stores that catered (and still does) to the Orthodox.

I will say this, though: Walls bakery is amazing.

[longskirts]

Apparently, it was really upscale with loads of designer stores, until the Orthodox Jews made an influx and it changed the dynamic of Cedarhurst and all the nice stores closed in favor of newer stores that catered (and still does) to the Orthodox.

Can't stop blaming your shopping woes on the Jews, can you?

[nylon]

It's partly true. Some of the stores couldn't make it without Saturday traffic, the non kosher restaurants lost their business (a few bagel and appetizing places went kosher) and some of the fashion stores saw their market shrink--the teenaged girls aren't buying skinny jeans, for the most part. But it would be naive not to blame changing shopping patterns in general. Cedarhurst's lack of accessibility protected it for a while, actually--it didn't have a mall to kill it, like Garden City did. I've also heard blame (including from Orthodox people I know) put at the feet of the village board. (I don't know the current composition, but for a long time, Cedarhurst wasn't as Jewish as Lawrence or Woodmere.) Especially when it comes to chains--they bailed on Huntington as well, which also has a vibrant shopping district and a very different demographic, although Huntington managed to keep hold of many of its independent stores.

Plus, think about it: More Orthodox Jews move in. Businesses catering to them open. Cycle continues. If it had changed into an immigrant oriented neighborhood, what would you say? Cedarhurst also serves as the shopping area for Jews in Far Rockaway, which has very little shopping. There's a big market for business owners to tap.

The traffic all over the South Shore is terrible, I agree. Long Island in general, but that entire section of Nassau is lousy--the parkways are so far away. There's never been enough road capacity. That area was built up long ago, and they never put in roads for real through traffic other than 878. At least if you're driving through Valley Stream and Lynbrook, you can sit in multiple lanes of traffic on Sunrise, instead of being stuck in one lane waiting for the guy in front of you to turn left. The problem with the math on 4 kid families is that each of the kids doesn't have their own car, and after you've paid private school tuition for 4 kids, you're doing well to buy any of them cars. Some of the kids will stay and have families of their own--but they displace other, non-Orthodox families, because the housing supply is finite and unlike Monsey, there's much less subdivision of houses. (Illegal apartments happen, but we all know Long Island zoning.) The population is growing because there are more kids, but the number of households isn't going up nearly as much.

(And I loved The Power Broker.)