NY area Hasidics and the local school system

[Irishy]

This is fascinating. Although, I'll never understand how shaving your hair off and wearing a wig is modest. A head covering or scarf, I can understand. God, the itch must be unreal.

[sparkles]

I live on Long Island. Not only do they take over the school boards in the area, they always vote no for anything. School budgets, any proposed changes (like voting against a medical center), and so on. It's very annoying. They all send their kids to private schools, so why can't they leave the public ones alone?

Because if you're not them, they don't give a shit, that's why.

Fellow Long Islander (raised Reform and culturally Jewish but I've been an avowed atheist for 40+ years). I will say unequivocally (even though I know it's very nice) that I have an intensive dislike of the ultra Orthodox as a group for the way they meddle in and take over local affairs to the point that it hurts other, deprives them of their livelihood and education and eventually forces them out. How or why this is allowed, I don't know but I've seen it happen. The Five Towns, for example (mentioned upthread), used to be a thriving community. Largely Jewish, both Ashkenazy and Sephardic, middle to upper class, with excellent schools and a bustling business district. As the ultra-Orthodox infiltrated, they began making demands such as insisting that all businesses, Jewish-owned and otherwise, shut down on Saturday or risk being boycotted and otherwise targeted and often damaged. Many of those businesses did give in to the threats but since a good percentage of their traffic came from out of the community, those shoppers ended up going elsewhere and the businesses suffered, many of them closing. The bustling downtown is no more. The last time I drove through (on my way to somewhere else) I was stunned because it was nothing like I remembered. I know too that the neighborhoods are nothing like they once were because of the way the ultra-Orthodox have taken over. They have no problem shutting down everything that doesn't benefit them or demanding support and services even though they contribute nothing but what is required of them in the form of taxes. Every bit of ill will they create in the communities where they live is well deserved, IMO.

[Conuly]

They have no problem shutting down everything that doesn't benefit them or demanding support and services even though they contribute nothing but what is required of them in the form of taxes.

And I'm betting that with large families and small incomes, there just aren't that many taxes coming in.

[2xx1xy1JD]

What the above poster said about Orthodox Jews is VERY true!! I'm Jewish (not religious) & Orthodox Jews think that if u r Consertive or Reformed u r not a true Jewish person.

Not quite.

The official Orthodox position is that if your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish, period.

That said, they do not recognize the validity of Conservative or Reform Judaism, because those movements have, in their view, deviated from the traditional methods of determining what is and is not in accordance with Jewish law, and rejected some of the key belief elements such as believing that the Oral and Written Torah was given on Mount Sinai. Sometimes, the discussion can, shall we say, lack nuance. Often, there isn't a great understanding of what the actual positions of the different non-Orthodox movements are, so that everyone who isn't Orthodox gets lumped together in this "lost Jews who don't know any better" category. Under this reasoning, individual non-Orthodox Jews are forgiven because they don't know any better, but the movements have been seen as forces leading Jews astray. In the most extreme view, the Reform movement is viewed as even causing the Holocaust.

Old thread from imamother on this topic (I give my $0.02 worth on page 4):

http://www.imamother.com/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

In terms of conversion, the Orthodox view is that being Jewish = being obligated to observe all of the commandments, so any conversion is suspect if the person wasn't truly intending to take on all of these obligations. It doesn't mean that a Reform/Conservative convert isn't a good human being. Rather, under the traditional Orthodox view, a non-Jew only has seven commandments to observe, so it is easier for them to do what they are supposed to do. If a Reform convert eats a bacon cheeseburger, many Orthodox Jews would say that this is perfectly fine, since they may never have committed themselves to observing the dietary laws.

Unfortunately, lack of cooperation between the movements has led to situations where someone can be raised Jewish, never questioning that identity, and then suddenly be told by an Orthodox rabbi that they don't meet the technical requirements. Suddenly blurting out, "so you're not REALLY Jewish" is hardly sensitive. I'm also hearing about situations where some Orthodox rabbis no longer trust that someone who isn't Orthodox is necessarily Jewish even if they say that they are, out of a concern that the person may be identifying as Jewish due to a Jewish father (but not mother) or a non-Orthodox conversion.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Not mentioned in the article, but similar situations have been playing out over the years in communities like the five towns in Long Island and in Lakewood NJ. What I find so remarkable about Lakewood in particular (admittedly the community I am mist familiar with; I grew up in the area) is the effect the Hasidic influx has had on secular Jewish institutions; in the past ten or so years, major Conservative and Reform synagogues and day schools in the town have shuttered.

There are some Hasidic Jews in Lakewood, but Lakewood is primarily known for being a stronghold for Yeshivish (non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox) Jews.

The closing of Conservative and Reform synagogues is a bit different from the public school issue. In Rockland, the concern is that the school board is starving the school of funds and being indifferent to the impact on education. Orthodox Jews in Lakewood don't control non-Orthodox synagogues. My guess is that the non-Orthodox institutions are closing down because (a) non-Orthodox Jews are moving away, or (b) they aren't producing a new generation to fill these institutions.

We've seen some of that here in Toronto, and to a certain extent, the competition is forcing non-Orthodox institutions to take a look at their operations and make some needed improvements. Once upon a time, a Conservative rabbi was simply someone hired by the synagogue for the ritual tasks - lead service, give sermons, weddings and funerals, a bit of pastoral counselling. Now, they are competing with more charismatic Orthodox outreach synagogues. We've seen several Conservative synagogues here dump their old rabbis, as the ability to reach out to congregants and the larger community suddenly became much more important. [All this is a side-discussion, because the Hasidic groups mentioned in the OP are very insular and don't do outreach.]

[flyawaystray]

Because if you're not them, they don't give a shit, that's why.

Fellow Long Islander (raised Reform and culturally Jewish but I've been an avowed atheist for 40+ years). I will say unequivocally (even though I know it's very nice) that I have an intensive dislike of the ultra Orthodox as a group for the way they meddle in and take over local affairs to the point that it hurts other, deprives them of their livelihood and education and eventually forces them out. How or why this is allowed, I don't know but I've seen it happen. The Five Towns, for example (mentioned upthread), used to be a thriving community. Largely Jewish, both Ashkenazy and Sephardic, middle to upper class, with excellent schools and a bustling business district. As the ultra-Orthodox infiltrated, they began making demands such as insisting that all businesses, Jewish-owned and otherwise, shut down on Saturday or risk being boycotted and otherwise targeted and often damaged. Many of those businesses did give in to the threats but since a good percentage of their traffic came from out of the community, those shoppers ended up going elsewhere and the businesses suffered, many of them closing. The bustling downtown is no more. The last time I drove through (on my way to somewhere else) I was stunned because it was nothing like I remembered. I know too that the neighborhoods are nothing like they once were because of the way the ultra-Orthodox have taken over. They have no problem shutting down everything that doesn't benefit them or demanding support and services even though they contribute nothing but what is required of them in the form of taxes. Every bit of ill will they create in the communities where they live is well deserved, IMO.

I live in the five towns. Nobody has to tell me how bad it is, I see it on a daily basis. Cedarhurst is a freaking nightmare on Friday and it's nearly impossible to drive through. I'm lucky enough where I don't have to go through Cedarhurst if I don't want to, but it's still very annoying.

I went to get a new cage for my second rabbit some weeks ago and it was a Friday. It took a very long time to get through the five towns to get to where I was going. I couldn't avoid going around everything because of the way I was going.

[flyawaystray]

Also, the women don't shave their hair to wear wigs. You can use a wig cap, and you won't believe the amount of hair you can fit in one. Some do wear head coverings, some wear wigs. And the head covering thing only applies to married women, iirc.

[sparkles]

Poor Flyaway. I thought you might be from there. To my knowledge, it's the only area on LI that's been taken over like that. My relatives used to live in Woodmere and my friends and I loved shopping in Cedarhurst. It was such a vibrant community. I'm sure the current Ultra Orthodox residents think it still is, but only for them. For everyone else, venturing in is like a covert mission into hostile territory.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I live in the five towns. Nobody has to tell me how bad it is, I see it on a daily basis. Cedarhurst is a freaking nightmare on Friday and it's nearly impossible to drive through. I'm lucky enough where I don't have to go through Cedarhurst if I don't want to, but it's still very annoying.

I went to get a new cage for my second rabbit some weeks ago and it was a Friday. It took a very long time to get through the five towns to get to where I was going. I couldn't avoid going around everything because of the way I was going.

Seriously, there's a world of difference between complaining that a particular group has deliberately obtained power for the sole purpose of starving the public school system of funds and diverting resources for themselves, and complaining that there's too much traffic on Fridays.

People - even if they are of the Orthodox Jewish variety - are allowed to exist. They are even allowed to (gasp!) drive and do errands on Friday. They are allowed to purchase homes in a free society, even if this may lead to someone else freaking out about "they're taking over the neighborhood!".

[sparkles]

Seriously, there's a world of difference between complaining that a particular group has deliberately obtained power for the sole purpose of starving the public school system of funds and diverting resources for themselves, and complaining that there's too much traffic on Fridays.

People - even if they are of the Orthodox Jewish variety - are allowed to exist. They are even allowed to (gasp!) drive and do errands on Friday. They are allowed to purchase homes in a free society, even if this may lead to someone else freaking out about "they're taking over the neighborhood!".

For the record, I'm talking about the former--the abuse of power--not the latter. I no longer live near the area and have no need to go there anymore, but it's true that what's happened there is that what was a once vibrant area has been turned into what pretty much amounts to a self-created ghetto and the residents are extremely hostile to anyone they deem an outsider. They take and take--and take away--but they don't give back to anyone other than their own. It's total abuse and it's legal, although it certainly stretches that legality to its limits. I really don't give a flying fuck where or how they want to live, but JOIN a community, don't destroy it.

[flyawaystray]

Poor Flyaway. I thought you might be from there. To my knowledge, it's the only area on LI that's been taken over like that. My relatives used to live in Woodmere and my friends and I loved shopping in Cedarhurst. It was such a vibrant community. I'm sure the current Ultra Orthodox residents think it still is, but only for them. For everyone else, venturing in is like a covert mission into hostile territory.

Ha, thanks for the sympathy! I had to live with my friend in Cedarhurst after the hurricane because my power was out for 6 weeks, while my friend had power within a couple of days.

My boyfriend made the mistake of trying to order something non-Kosher in a Kosher pizza place, and he was told to leave. My boyfriend at the time didn't really understand and honestly, there was no reason to be rude about it.

Recently, there was a vote to either approve or shoot down a proposal that would turn and unused school into a medical center. Needless to say, it didn't pass, thanks to the Orthodox. Their excuse is that it would create more traffic. Um, Orthodox people, you did a good job of that yourself. Also, the Jewish people use the school's playground for their kids.

The school budgets also have a hard time passing. FFS, it's about the SCHOOLS and the CHILDREN. Stop being so selfish when your kid doesn't even attend public school.

And yeah, the Orthodox are pretty racist. I had a Korean friend that lived in Woodmere and she was made fun of :/

[GeoBQn]

Unfortunately, lack of cooperation between the movements has led to situations where someone can be raised Jewish, never questioning that identity, and then suddenly be told by an Orthodox rabbi that they don't meet the technical requirements. Suddenly blurting out, "so you're not REALLY Jewish" is hardly sensitive. I'm also hearing about situations where some Orthodox rabbis no longer trust that someone who isn't Orthodox is necessarily Jewish even if they say that they are, out of a concern that the person may be identifying as Jewish due to a Jewish father (but not mother) or a non-Orthodox conversion.

When I was studying abroad in Israel, my professor told me the story of a student of his who was from an American university, female, and identified as Orthodox. She came up to him one day and said that she wanted to join the ultra-Orthodox community. The problem was that she was adopted as a baby and her family wasn't clear whether she had an Orthodox conversion. She wanted to know if she would have to go through a conversion ceremony to join the UO community. The professor responded, "Well, since you have been living an Orthodox lifestyle, I think you would only have to take a quick dip in the mikvah. Of course, I'm not an expert, so let me ask my friend who is a scholar in Orthodox Judaism." The friend thought he said the right thing, but he wasn't a practicing Orthodox rabbi, so he sent him to a friend who was an Orthodox rabbi. The rabbi said he agreed with what the professor said, but he wasn't a rabbi in that particular UO community, so he sent the professor to a friend who was an UO rabbi and served on Israel's Rabbinical Council. The UO rabbi said, "As far as I'm concerned, she's a goy (not Jewish) and she would need a full year of conversion classes before the mikvah. But I would NEVER approve her conversion. After this semester, she is going back to her American university that is a hotbed of sin, and that shows she is not serious at all about becoming Jewish." The professor eventually got back to the student, giving her the name of the Hillel director at her university and told her to ask the diretor to connect her with a sane Orthodox rabbi.

[flyawaystray]

I'm not saying they're not allowed to do stuff on Friday, or to exist. My mom was born Jewish and went to an Orthodox temple. Hell, my grandma covered her hair and my mother does as well. The problem is that they're trying to take over communities and they want things done THEIR way, without caring about anyone else. They also create problems like traffic and problems with the local public schools.

If they weren't so pushy about their ways then I wouldn't be complaining. 2xx1xy1JD, do you live in an Orthodox area? I think it's one thing to say it's not a problem, unless you've lived near or in an Orthodox community. And yes, they do take over neighborhoods. I'm seeing it in my own town, especially the part where I live. More and more Orthodox Jews are moving in the neighborhood. They've even come to my house a few times to see if the house was for sale. They've done it to other houses right near me as well.

It is their right to buy whatever houses they want, but they should stay out of the public school system when their kids are being sent to Yeshivas. Also, they shouldn't be walking around and trying to get people to buy their house. If they want to buy houses here, maybe they should look at the ones with for sale signs.

[2xx1xy1JD]

For fuck's sake, you're seriously criticizing people for trying to buy houses?

If you don't want to sell, say no. Cold calling is a pretty common technique in any in-demand area, Jewish or not.

I've never been to Long Island, Lakewood, Bergen County or Rockland county, or even to the Jewish areas of Brooklyn. I'm Canadian, so the communities that I know are in Canada, Florida and Israel. I live within walking distance of one of the largest Orthodox synagogues in North America. Here's a description of the area:

http://www.jewishtorontoonline.net/home ... illvaughan

By the same token, I also grew up in a city that was once predominantly rural and white, and which now has an Asian majority. Do I complain about my Asian neighbors "taking over", even if there's some traffic around the Pacific Mall? Or the fact that part of the area that was traditionally a Jewish thoroughfare is now becoming increasingly Filippino? Or the fact that the western part of current city is predominantly Italian - and that they have the gall to elect some Italian city councilors and install bocce courts in municipal community centers? Or about the fact that my SIL's public school acknowledges Diwali? Or about any of the other myriad of ethnic enclaves in the Toronto area? In short, no, I do not have a problem with shifting demographics and the arrival of newcomers.

[flyawaystray]

It's not an in demand area, that's the thing. Where I live, I've seen very few people that have moved in and out of the neighborhood, and I've lived here almost 20 years. I know every single neighbor. It's really hard to explain, but I live in a crazy small area. The town is divided by highway and where I live, well you wouldn't know it existed unless you've been back here before.

I've never, EVER had ANYONE come to any of the other houses I've lived in and have people ask me if the house was for sale.

The other problem is that the cost of everything goes up. These specialty shops that cater to the Orthodox community aren't cheap. There's also the fact that the Kosher supermarkets aren't cheap either. When I lived with my friend after the hurricane, there was only ONE supermarket in the entire town. It's a huge Kosher supermarket and I don't drive (legally can, but don't own a car), and it was within walking distance. I shopped at the store and it was expensive. I'm on disability, I don't get a lot at all, and shopping at that place was really difficult.

There's also a difference between Filipino's and Italians and Orthodox Jews. Orthodox people have LOTS of kids. Lots of kids = more cars on the road, more people driving, and increasing traffic. Increasing traffic really sucks when you're trying to get through town and it's difficult because there are too many cars on the road and only one way to get through the area. We're not talking about malls or anything, we're talking about towns that have limited roads to the point where you CAN'T avoid the traffic if you need to get through. And it's not one small part. If you don't live in the 5 towns, it's really hard to describe how congested it can be. You go outside of the five towns and traffic is pretty much non-existent unless you're on the Belt Parkway or LIE during rush hour.

Another thing is that it's not one town. It's called the five towns for a reason, it's one big area made up of five separate towns. Some towns are very small like mine, some are huge like Woodmere and Hewlett because they also have shopping districts. It's hell trying to get through these areas because as I said, there are very few alternative roads because everything is connected.

Maybe Sparkles can explain it better than I can. The situation is really complicated here and you won't get it unless you've lived here, know family here, or have visited here quite frequently.

Also, Filipino's and Italians aren't trying to make their way into school boards and voting everything down that affects the community, which DOES hurt the area.

[2xx1xy1JD]

When I was studying abroad in Israel, my professor told me the story of a student of his who was from an American university, female, and identified as Orthodox. She came up to him one day and said that she wanted to join the ultra-Orthodox community. The problem was that she was adopted as a baby and her family wasn't clear whether she had an Orthodox conversion. She wanted to know if she would have to go through a conversion ceremony to join the UO community. The professor responded, "Well, since you have been living an Orthodox lifestyle, I think you would only have to take a quick dip in the mikvah. Of course, I'm not an expert, so let me ask my friend who is a scholar in Orthodox Judaism." The friend thought he said the right thing, but he wasn't a practicing Orthodox rabbi, so he sent him to a friend who was an Orthodox rabbi. The rabbi said he agreed with what the professor said, but he wasn't a rabbi in that particular UO community, so he sent the professor to a friend who was an UO rabbi and served on Israel's Rabbinical Council. The UO rabbi said, "As far as I'm concerned, she's a goy (not Jewish) and she would need a full year of conversion classes before the mikvah. But I would NEVER approve her conversion. After this semester, she is going back to her American university that is a hotbed of sin, and that shows she is not serious at all about becoming Jewish." The professor eventually got back to the student, giving her the name of the Hillel director at her university and told her to ask the diretor to connect her with a sane Orthodox rabbi.

Conversion politics are a complete mess.

I'll use the citizenship analogy. If someone wants to become a Canadian citizen, they need to fulfill certain requirements, pass a test, and take an oath. Now, some folks do everything else, but object to swearing an oath to be loyal to the Queen. I understand why some may object to the monarchy, I can agree that it sounds archaic, I know that I didn't have to do it because I was born here - but it's still a requirement. No oath, no citizenship. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/04 ... tizenship/

Orthodoxy tends to look at Reform/Conservative conversion as they would a citizenship judge who says "screw the law, screw the oath, I'm making you a citizen".

Modern Orthodox and the more traditional Conservatives would be more likely to argue that the citizenship oath should be changed, but would want the change to go through official channels.

Ultra-Orthodox, meanwhile, would be like a group of old-fashioned citizenship court judges who are so worried about the rogue judge who granted citizenship without the oath that they demand not just the oath, but insist that applicants join the Monarchist society, put up photos of the Royal family on their walls and submit to intensive background checks to see if they even listened to the Sex Pistols version of "God Save the Queen". They would also try to say that the thousands of citizenships already granted by the middle group of judges who supported changing the law through legal channels were now suspect, because nobody who wants to tamper with tradition can possibly uphold the law.

[flyawaystray]

And here's a good article about the situation here:

http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/12 ... -school-b/

And here's one about Rockland county:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/28/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0

[atheistjd]

It's not an in demand area, that's the thing. Where I live, I've seen very few people that have moved in and out of the neighborhood, and I've lived here almost 20 years. I know every single neighbor. It's really hard to explain, but I live in a crazy small area. The town is divided by highway and where I live, well you wouldn't know it existed unless you've been back here before.

I've never, EVER had ANYONE come to any of the other houses I've lived in and have people ask me if the house was for sale.

The other problem is that the cost of everything goes up. These specialty shops that cater to the Orthodox community aren't cheap. There's also the fact that the Kosher supermarkets aren't cheap either. When I lived with my friend after the hurricane, there was only ONE supermarket in the entire town. It's a huge Kosher supermarket and I don't drive (legally can, but don't own a car), and it was within walking distance. I shopped at the store and it was expensive. I'm on disability, I don't get a lot at all, and shopping at that place was really difficult.

There's also a difference between Filipino's and Italians and Orthodox Jews. Orthodox people have LOTS of kids. Lots of kids = more cars on the road, more people driving, and increasing traffic. Increasing traffic really sucks when you're trying to get through town and it's difficult because there are too many cars on the road and only one way to get through the area. We're not talking about malls or anything, we're talking about towns that have limited roads to the point where you CAN'T avoid the traffic if you need to get through. And it's not one small part. If you don't live in the 5 towns, it's really hard to describe how congested it can be. You go outside of the five towns and traffic is pretty much non-existent unless you're on the Belt Parkway or LIE during rush hour.

Another thing is that it's not one town. It's called the five towns for a reason, it's one big area made up of five separate towns. Some towns are very small like mine, some are huge like Woodmere and Hewlett because they also have shopping districts. It's hell trying to get through these areas because as I said, there are very few alternative roads because everything is connected.

Maybe Sparkles can explain it better than I can. The situation is really complicated here and you won't get it unless you've lived here, know family here, or have visited here quite frequently.

Also, Filipino's and Italians aren't trying to make their way into school boards and voting everything down that affects the community, which DOES hurt the area.

There is a huge difference between making an ethnic/religious culture's presence felt in a neighborhood (i.e. running businesses/restaurants that cater to that clientele, acknowledging different languages/cultural holidays in school) and bullying current residents OUT. How is it ever OK to shun non-religious/Sabbath-observing business owners, knock on people's houses to ask them to move, essentially, and literally defund public schools (which your kids do not even attend - TOTALLY different than having the local public school acknowledge like the Chinese New Year or something). These groups in LI seem to be nothing more than bullies, forcing everyone who does not fit their racial/religious profile out of their homes and communities and public spaces.

[flyawaystray]

There is a huge difference between making an ethnic/religious culture's presence felt in a neighborhood (i.e. running businesses/restaurants that cater to that clientele, acknowledging different languages/cultural holidays in school) and bullying current residents OUT. How is it ever OK to shun non-religious/Sabbath-observing business owners, knock on people's houses to ask them to move, essentially, and literally defund public schools (which your kids do not even attend - TOTALLY different than having the local public school acknowledge like the Chinese New Year or something). These groups in LI seem to be nothing more than bullies, forcing everyone who does not fit their racial/religious profile out of their homes and communities and public spaces.

Exactly. I can't wait to move. I'll be able to visit stores that don't close early on Friday nights, I won't have to deal with traffic congestion once I do get a car (soon!), and when I buy a home, property taxes won't be through the roof.

[patsymae]

A town i lived in in New Jersey will probably follow the same route. It was always heavily Jewish but the Hassidim followed the New Americans (Jews from the former Soviet Union) beginning in the 1970s, and pretty much tried all of the things being discussed here.

I still remember, and this is going back like 30 years, the Mezzuza (sp?) police--Hassidic men loudly knocking on all the doors of my building--at like 9 on a Sunday morning (because Sunday is nothing to them, so who cares). I opened the door, this guy shouts at me "ARE YOU JEWISH?" I said no and he slammed my own door in my face.

Delightful folks.

[anjulibai]

I was thinking the conversion issues reminded me of how different Christian denominations often don't consider other Christian denominations RealChristians. Like a lot of evangelicals don't think Catholics, Mormons, JWs, etc. are RealChristians, and conversely, I'm sure there are Catholics that don't Mormons and JWs are RealChristians, Mormons who don't think Catholics and evangelicals are, and so on and so forth.

The big thing with Jewish identity is that it isn't just religiously based. Jewishness is an ethnicity, a nationality, a cultural identity, a philosophy, in addition to being a religious persuasion. And there's a wide, wide, wide variation in meaning for each of those different subsets of Jewishness.

It seems unfair to Jews to force them to select a specific subset of Jewish identity in for other Jews to accept them.

Saying someone isn't really Jewish because they are Reform or Conservative seems just as ridiculous as saying a Mormon or a Catholic isn't really a Christian.

[flyawaystray]

I thought of an analogy to explain the traffic situation here.

Imagine being a rat, and you're in a maze. There's only so many ways to get in and out. Now imagine that there are 25 other rats cramped in this maze, and it's very difficult to move or go anywhere due to the limited space. That is how the roads are here.

Also, parking is metered so that adds a whole other problem.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There is a huge difference between making an ethnic/religious culture's presence felt in a neighborhood (i.e. running businesses/restaurants that cater to that clientele, acknowledging different languages/cultural holidays in school) and bullying current residents OUT. How is it ever OK to shun non-religious/Sabbath-observing business owners, knock on people's houses to ask them to move, essentially, and literally defund public schools (which your kids do not even attend - TOTALLY different than having the local public school acknowledge like the Chinese New Year or something). These groups in LI seem to be nothing more than bullies, forcing everyone who does not fit their racial/religious profile out of their homes and communities and public spaces.

You're right that harassing businesses, forcing people out of their homes, and abusing one's position on the school board in order to deprive it of funds or redirect funds for your own gain is wrong, and that it's completely different from making one's ethnic/religious culture felt in an area. From what I've read, the state should be taking control of the school board in Rockland. [i have no basis to comment on the other allegations re the Five Towns and have no idea if that is what is in fact happening.]

Flyawaystray, though, can't stop talking about her traffic and shopping woes:

Exactly. I can't wait to move. I'll be able to visit stores that don't close early on Friday nights, I won't have to deal with traffic congestion once I do get a car (soon!), and when I buy a home, property taxes won't be through the roof.

Because an increase in traffic congestion has never been associated with any other group, and someone from Toronto apparently can't appreciate just how bad traffic can be.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NtgXlrcvXZA/S ... EETCAR.jpg (just to be clear, I'm not dissing my old area! I loved it, traffic and all.)

[flyawaystray]

Except I said that there's traffic on the LIE and Belt during rush hour, and I know that there's traffic in Queens and the other boroughs. But there is no traffic outside of the orthodox area for the most part where I am. You don't get it because you don't live here. I am talking about MY experience living in the 5 towns. You are talking about Toronto, these are completely different areas and it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[France Nolan]

http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/12 ... -school-b/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/16/nyreg ... nted=print

http://fivetowns.patch.com/groups/schoo ... o-6-school

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 29730.html

^Articles referencing the situation in the Five Towns and Lawrence school district.

ETA:

Orthodox Modesty Police in Brooklyn

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/30/shadowy ... _brooklyn/

http://jezebel.com/5854140/women-on-bro ... ell-please

Ending of sex segregation on PUBLIC buses in NYC.

The tension in the communities on Long Island and NYC (primarily in Brooklyn) is palpable. It's unreal.