Question on Smockity Frocks 4 Moms Post

[Wolfie]

It is very common in expensive areas and areas that have small apartments instead of large houses.

So are trundle beds, which some people here tend to freak out about.

Also, I doubt most places ban someone sleeping in a walk in closet, you just can't advertise it as a bedroom.

In a space that small most people will take the door off to use it more as an alcove.

Yeah, I don't understand the freaking out about trundles that some have here. But a walk in closet can be illegal as a bedroom in some cases, especially if you are renting. (Homeowners can get away with more "creative" uses of closets.) And a closet as a bedroom really isn't safe especially if it doesn't have a full sized window.

[bananacat]

in the '70s, my grandparents were state-approved foster parents and had a shit ton of kids at there house. they had a three decker my grandfather had made in the hall linen closet. yes, a bottom bunk and 2 cribs he built above it. the state did home visits so someone saw it. there were 2 sets of bunk beds in my aunt's room as well as her canopy bed, 2 sets of bunk beds in the spare bedroom and he added a room onto the back of the house that held 4 sets of bunk beds. they had a huge house because my grandfather had bought a small house on a big lot and added a big room at a time while merging some of the tiny rooms to make bigger rooms. I think the most the state ever let them have were 10 children, even though they had more beds.

Kids need more than just a bed to sleep in, so I'm glad they never got more than 10 at a time. But the 70s were a different time and I'm sure everyone had the best of intentions but we have new information now and we know better. In the 70s, seatbelts weren't even required and nobody knew about the risk of small people sitting in front of an airbag. There's no reason to continue doing something just because it was approved off 4 decades ago.

[August]

I lived overseas in a third world country about 40 years ago. Families slept five or six to a room, on pallets on the floor. Heck, they lived in one room. I was the rich American--I had two rooms!

I'm cool with family bed/family bedroom but I wouldn't put a baby in that raised crib contraption. Just toss a king-size mattress on the floor and cuddle up--much safer, imho.

It's really dangerous to put a baby to sleep with an older sibling. Even my two school ages kids will end up with their head under a pillow or the one one's legs or something, if they were little they could suffocate.

[Mama Mia]

Kids need more than just a bed to sleep in, so I'm glad they never got more than 10 at a time. But the 70s were a different time and I'm sure everyone had the best of intentions but we have new information now and we know better. In the 70s, seatbelts weren't even required and nobody knew about the risk of small people sitting in front of an airbag. There's no reason to continue doing something just because it was approved off 4 decades ago.

Um, I may be old and my memory may be fading , but I'm pretty sure there weren't any airbags in the 70's.

Yes, there are many new safety features and knowledge now, but slightly off-topic, in some ways people seem to be crappier parents in many ways. I never, ever, heard of anyone letting a baby cry-it-out as a technique in the 70's or 80's, and now you hear of many people doing it, even educated people. People might have occasionally done it if they were just frustrated out of their minds, but certainly not as something they would brag about and choose as an actual philosophy.

That's just one thing I can think of off the top of my grumpy old brain

[burntnorton]

Um, I may be old and my memory may be fading , but I'm pretty sure there weren't any airbags in the 70's.

Yes, there are many new safety features and knowledge now, but slightly off-topic, in some ways people seem to be crappier parents in many ways. I never, ever, heard of anyone letting a baby cry-it-out as a technique in the 70's or 80's, and now you hear of many people doing it, even educated people. People might have occasionally done it if they were just frustrated out of their minds, but certainly not as something they would brag about and choose as an actual philosophy.

That's just one thing I can think of off the top of my grumpy old brain

Then you were deaf, because various versions of CIO have been around a very long time. Center's book came out in 1985 and it was a kinder gentler method than those doctors pushed a few decades before, which involved scheduled feedings from a very early age and limiting physical affection. And many parents choose various forms of controlled crying because it works for them and because educated parents know that it has absolutely no harmful effects on the baby. You know what does? Not sleeping.

[Mama Mia]

Then you were deaf, because various versions of CIO have been around a very long time. Center's book came out in 1985 and it was a kinder gentler method than those doctors pushed a few decades before, which involved scheduled feedings from a very early age and limiting physical affection. And many parents choose various forms of controlled crying because it works for them and because educated parents know that it has absolutely no harmful effects on the baby. You know what does? Not sleeping.

No, not deaf. Guess I just didn't hang out with people who believed in letting their babies scream until they puked because they wanted to sleep.

The people I knew raising babies in the 70's to 90's picked up their crying babies, nursed them, rocked them, walked with them and you know... took care of them.

You can look up any number of sources talking about how Ferber and CIO is fucking dangerous as hell. And if I did hear a newborn purposefully being left to cry for more than a few minutes back then I would have called CPS because I would have assumed the parents were not taking care of their child. Because I hadn't heard it was a "thing" to leave your baby screaming, and I had a degree in Early Childhood Development and worked in various day care settings.

I'm not talking about your baby crying while you go to use the bathroom, or take a break for a few minutes. I'm talking about the parents who let their infants cry for 20=30=40 minutes because some idiot in a book has told them it's a good idea.

eta: to tone down slightly, because I do know some parents now who do this who, and they think they are doing the right thing.

[burntnorton]

Bluntly, you don't know what you're talking about. You are being a judgemental jerk who exhibits the same black and white think of the judgement, willfully ignorant morons we snark on. Please, enlighten me. Show me one single study that shows any if the popular cry it out methods are "fucking dangerous as hell" or even remotely harmful. You won't, because it isn't. You tell me what's more dangerous and unhealthy - an exhausted 9 month old and a mother exhausted to the point of near psychosis because the baby wakes up four times a night and won't go back to sleep unless mommy rocks her for ten minutes, or two to seven nights of letting the baby cry for 10 (horrors!), 20 (gasp!), or even 30 minutes (OMG! Call CPS!).

And your degree means nothing to me next to the actual doctors and scientists who have methodically studied these things. And, no, the intellectual, evidence and analysis free wanking that Dr. Sears and his ilk engage in doesn't count.

[apple1]

I had my daughters in 81 and 83.

I BFed on demand. I used a crib, of that time period, not a foraged antique. I did lay them down on their tummies, per the instruction of that time - until it was all their choice when they rolled over. I picked them up when they cried. I had a car seat, carefully researched to be the safest-rated at that time. The car seat was placed (per instruction of the day) in the back seat, rear-facing for an infant, and yes, there were warnings not to put it in the front seat of the car which had an airbag. While they were in said carseat, they sometimes sucked their thumbs (their choice).

You know, just being a Mom. FTR.

Aside: I used BC, so there were only the two. And I never in my wildest dreams thought that there would be an effort to reduce those daughters' access to BC, once they reached adulthood.

[Mama Mia]

Very simple, and fast, to provide you with links to articles, which summarize studies that show it is bad for your baby's brain and development to let them scream themselves to sleep. And you know what, when my kids were babies I was exhausted much of the time - like most people I assumed that went with the territory of choosing to have them. And someone who PURPOSEFULLY thinks their need to sleep is more important than getting up with a baby who is literally vomiting because they are so distraught, and will do it AGAIN the next night -- needs to develop some sort of more humane strategy.

ahaparenting.com/ages-stages/newborns/case-against-ferber-sleep

huffingtonpost.com/denene-millner/cry-it-out_b_1163864.html

city-data.com/forum/parenting/137936-harvard-researchers-say-cry-out-wrong.html

[burntnorton]

Like I said, you've got nothing. None of those are studies. The last post discusses a study where researchers theorize that a constellation of American parenting practices have caused an increase in panic and anxiety disorders compared o parenting practices in certain African cultures. They propose a biological mechanism, but didn't actually study the mechanism to see if their hypothesis is correct. The second regurgitated bullshit spouted by Narvaez, a professor of psychology who writes bunch opinion pieces on parenting despite the fact that she isn't a child psychologist and doesn't study child development. She's an ethicist. The first is another academic article that comes down as against Ferberizing despite the fact that the author admits that most of the evidence against t is weak or nonexistent. The author even dismisses the Harvard study that the third article summarizes.

[Mama Mia]

Gee, if the info comes straight from the Harvard Gazette and Psychology today instead of the top 3 sites I found on google, does that help ?

You can get as upset as you like, I was pointing out my opinion that the "cry-it-out" theory that many parents use today is messed up, and that the old-school idea of just picking up your baby and attending to it's needs makes a lot more sense.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/199 ... edTou.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mor ... ing-it-out

[burntnorton]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I already discussed why the study I

doesnt show what you claim it does (and if you read the first link you posted, you'd know that even the psychologist who agrees with you on CIO agrees with me on the study). And again, Narvaez has zero academic, professional, or personal experience in this area. She writes blog posts and articles on ethics that are notorious for their lack of evidence and rigor. Also, neither of those publications is an academic journal.

Finally, you didn't just state your opinion. You called CIO "fucking dangerous as hell' and claimed a factual basis for this claim. You are just flat out wrong and clearly don't know what you're talking about. As evidenced by your citing to nonacademic sources as studies, your inability to understand even those things you read, and your laughably inaccurate claims about what constitutes traditional parenting. There are many different parenting practices and traditions and a wide range of healthy ways to raise children. What works for one family, child, or culture doesn't work for others. Absent actual evidence of harm, claiming something is bad or dangerous is just ignorant and judgmental.

[Mama Mia]

So basically, YOU don't agree with the Harvard study, or the studies cited in the Psychology Today article, so therefore there are no studies ? Okay, got it. The studies say, clearly, that CIO is dangerous, you choose to ignore it. That is your problem.

You can bleet all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that the studies cited, that you can easily read through the links in the articles, show that leaving your baby to scream is going to lead to a higher incidence of PTSD and anxiety. It's not that complicated.

[burntnorton]

No, i actually read the articles and studies and they don't show what you claim they do. As the writer of the first article you posted clearly states. But stay ignorant.

[Mama Mia]

No, i actually read the articles and studies and they don't show what you claim they do. As the writer of the first article you posted clearly states. But stay ignorant.

Well, reading them, I think they do clearly show that leaving your baby to cry for long periods is detrimental to their health. But you tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, because obviously that's whats most important.

[Beammeup]

Well, reading them, I think they do clearly show that leaving your baby to cry for long periods is detrimental to their health. But you tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, because obviously that's whats most important.

You are acting like getting sleep is a horrible indulgence. It's not. It's an absolute necessity for life.

[burntnorton]

I confess. I agree with every doctor ever that sleep is critically important to every single solitary person's physical and mental health. Sleep deprivation, unlike a few nights of CIO sleep training, actually has been proven to be fucking dangerous as hell. I and everyone else in my family sleep fine at night ever since we finally spent three nights sleep training my then 8 month old twins. Up to that point, they were each waking up two to three times a night and crying until we went into comfort them. Everyone was much happier after that and my postpartum depression (bordering on psychosis) finally started to clear up when I was getting more than two hours of uninterrupted sleep a night. I suppose it would have been better for the kids if i had to spend a week in the psych ward?

And my experience is not unique. No one i know who used Weissbluth or Ferber regretted it. No one i know who used either method had a pattern of neglecting their children. But what do I know? Silly me, using a method recommended by a doctor who specializes in treating child and infant sleep problems and who has done actual research on the subject.

[Savoring Samsara]

It seems like there are different definitions of "cry it out" being addressed here. I'll submit that there is a world of difference between Ferber style sleep training in which a child of appropriate developmental age is allowed to fuss for a few minutes in order to develop self-soothing skills, and leaving a 2-month-old alone on the opposite end of the house to scream until they vomit (as some of our favorite fundies have done). The former is a parenting choice that wasn't right for me and my family (and won't be for many others either), but I know plenty of other parents who have used it and had a positive outcome for the whole family in the end. I think we can all agree that the latter is pretty awful. :twocents-02cents:

[burntnorton]

Agree completely, Samsara.

[FairyPrincessK]

I don't have a dog in the above fight...just wanted to um, talk about the op?

I think if a closet has a second means of egress, is of a reasonable size and has appropriate ventilation then it is fine for a bedroom, especially if that is the best the parents can manage. I would worry about closets that don't have another exit, such as a window, or that didn't have proper ventilation--but that doesn't mean parents couldn't take appropriate measures to help mitigate these problems if they didn't have any other options--for example, using those fire stickers to ensure that if there was a fire people would know to check there, taking the closet as their own bedroom and putting the kid in a spot more accessible to firefighters or whatever else they could do.

TBH, in the photos shown, I'm far more concerned about some of the "decorations"--the shelf scares me too after spending some time in California, and although I know babies initially can't pull up and reach, I would seriously be worried about the bunting in two of those photos as a strangulation hazard. Particularly the pointy bunting looks like a baby that can pull up might be able to grab it--and either one could easily come down. Neither of those is serving any purpose and while I'm sure most parents want their child to have nice surroundings, I don't think the risk is justified--which, strangely would be my same criteria for the closet as bedroom--is there another option? Can the parents do anything to make it safer? Does the situation merit the potential risk? My guess? If they're asking smockity for the advice, it is probably because they don't think their kids are important enough to warrant a real sleeping space that has been properly considered, not just in terms of parental convenience and how high we can stack the cord wood, but also in terms of safety and comfort.

[Mama Mia]

Agree completely, Samsara.

Since I stated, repeatedly, that it is wrong to leave child to cry until they vomit, and you kept stating that there is nothing wrong with leaving an infant to cry for half an hour, I think you are changing your story.

I understand it can be insanely exhausting to parent infants, I did it myself. What I am objecting to is the glorification of having babies "tough it out", and listening to them scream. That is very different than having a baby who fusses for a couple of minutes and then settles themselves.

When I was raising my babies people would talk about having to get up to walk the halls with a screaming baby, or spending time rocking them if they were trying to get them to stop co-sleeping or they were being particularly fussy. They would complain about being exhausted, they would ask for tips, they would get a friend to watch the baby while they napped, or the dad would take the baby and rock it so mom could get a good stretch of sleep. If they were feeling completely overwhelmed they would say they left the baby to cry for a little bit because they couldn't take it anymore. People would feel sympathetic . That would be when the baby was going through a particularly rough time with colic or teething or whatever. The rest of the time the parent got a fair amount of sleep once the baby was old enough to sleep in long stretches without getting hungry.

I think that is very different than the facebook posts you see now with moms saying how they are having to listen to their baby scream for 45 minutes straight, night after night after night and having their friends telling them to "hang tough" and "don't let the baby win". The vast majority of them seem to spend at least as much time stressing about lack of sleep and listening to the baby scream as the ones who just take care of the baby's needs. They also constantly post about how exhausted they are.

It sounds like you were lucky and had kids who responded quickly to being left to cry. I know maybe one or two people who had that experience, the rest have babies who spend weeks or months screaming themselves to sleep every night, and then again every time they are ill or have any change in routine.

And please, show me some sort of study that shows that babies being left to scream until they vomit on themselves is in any way healthy. Particularly now when they are swaddled and put to sleep on their backs !

[burntnorton]

Since leaving them to scream until they vomit on themselves for weeks at a time is not, in fact, what the mainstream methods of CIO recommend and since you seem completely ignorant of what the methods actually entail, I don't see the point of discussing it further. You claimed CIO is "fucking dangerous as hell", couldnt back that statement up, and now won't back down. If your facebook friends (as opposed to the looney fundies you follow) really are egging each other as their babies (who are probably too young to sleep train) scream for weeks on end, you need better and less stupid friends. And not for nothing, but 30 minutes of fussing is not the same as screaming until they vomit. You seem to have a problem with nuance, but that isn't a subtle distinction

As for research, read Weissbluth if you're actually curious. But as there is no evidence that CIO sleep training is actually harmful (certainly not "fucking dangerous as hell") and plenty of evidence that chronic sleep deprivation is, I suggest you climb down off your high horse, stop viewing the past through such rose tinted glasses, and endeavor not to be such a judgmental jerk.

[Mama Mia]

Since leaving them to scream until they vomit on themselves for weeks at a time is not, in fact, what the mainstream methods of CIO recommend and since you seem completely ignorant of what the methods actually entail, I don't see the point of discussing it further. You claimed CIO is "fucking dangerous as hell", couldnt back that statement up, and now won't back down. If your facebook friends (as opposed to the looney fundies you follow) really are egging each other as their babies (who are probably too young to sleep train) scream for weeks on end, you need better and less stupid friends. And not for nothing, but 30 minutes of fussing is not the same as screaming until they vomit. You seem to have a problem with nuance, but that isn't a subtle distinction

As for research, read Weissbluth if you're actually curious. But as there is no evidence that CIO sleep training is actually harmful (certainly not "fucking dangerous as hell") and plenty of evidence that chronic sleep deprivation is, I suggest you climb down off your high horse, stop viewing the past through such rose tinted glasses, and endeavor not to be such a judgmental jerk.

I'll stop now too, since this is turning into a fuck you match. You chose to ignore completely valid studies and claim there is "no proof" despite evidence of long term neurological harm to babies, and even Ferber himself is now backing off of CIO, but hey whatever makes YOU happy, because that's what parenting is all about, right ?

The facebook friends I have who have used this method are not using it with newborns or very young infants.

Even in this mostly positive overview of ferber's methods it is acknowledged that he does think that letting your child cry until they vomit is just a-okay.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-ferber- ... owAll=true

[burntnorton]

For the last time, none of those studies show what you claim. One posits an hypothesis as to why a constellation of American parenting practices might contribute to higher rates of anxiety than certain African cultures, but that hypothesis is untested. The other studies cited by the authors of the articles you posted (none of whom have actually performed research in this area) are studies of chronic stress and/ or neglect. A few hours of crying spread over a few days or weeks simply isnt comparable to institutions where babies cries are never responded to.

[dpndetfarm]

Leaving babies to cry it out, putting babies in closets, using travel pens for babies to sleep in. Boy have times changed since I had my kids in 90 and 92.

My son was born in 1990. He did not sleep through the night until he was 4.

My daughter was born in 1992. She did not sleep through the night until she was 2. Probably because he started sleeping through the night.

We had been given some book on helping your child sleep through the night as my son's waking up throughout the night sometimes irritated my husband. It was a letting them cry it out book. I was flat out against it, but I agreed to try it. My husband was the one who after 35 minutes was literally begging me to go to my son. In my opinion I spent 35 minutes torturing my son and I cannot imagine anyone doing that repeatedly to a baby on purpose.

Eventually my son needed to cry for about 15 minutes to get himself to sleep. If it went longer he needed attention and this was not until he was about 1 year old. I have to agree with Mrs2004. Letting a baby cry it out repeatedly is child abuse.

Putting the baby in a closet makes me ask why? If one's long term plan is to have children wouldn't one buy a house or condo etc with one or two extra bedrooms? And if one didn't plan ahead why not let the baby sleep in the master bedroom? Put up a sheet or something. And if one must have one's own room how about the grown ups sleep in the closet? I figure if I would not be willing to sleep in a closet I should not expect my child to sleep in a closet. If the closet has no second means of egress then I don't care how crowded your house is, don't use one as a bedroom. It will be a death trap in a fire.

And just because it bugs me, why do so many parents seem to be using temporary travel cribs for permanent baby cribs? To me that is like an adult sleeping on a cot or an air mattress full time. My back couldn't take it. The bars under the mattress on those travel pens can be felt through the mattress. Do people really think babies can't feel?

Ah well, I am beginning to think I must have parented in a parallel universe. I was tired for a long time, but my babies slept on their own terms, in their own beds, in an actual bedroom even when we had to take the washing machine out of our bedroom to fit the second baby (living in the 10X47 foot trailer from hell while building our house 20 feet away). I also nursed on demand, had very consistent nap, eating, story, and bedtimes, and very little screen time.

There are lots of ways to raise a baby, not all I agree with, but there are some that are dangerous or abusive. I don't hold my tongue when I see those.

Almost forgot, here is a link that says there are NO studies on letting babies cry it out:

http://infantsleep.org/cryingitoutresearch.html