Question on Smockity Frocks 4 Moms Post

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I grew up in the 80s and 90s (apple, your younger daughter and I are the same age!) and honestly, it wasn't until I started reading FJ some years ago that I learned that CIO was out of favor - until then, I honestly believed that it was only the most indulgent parents who didn't do it. Now, I have no siblings, no kids, never babysat, etc., so this is purely stuff I gleaned from overhearing conversations, pop culture, etc. I have a very clear memory of a middle school teacher telling a by-the-by anecdote about how he had accidentally "spoiled" his oldest by giving her attention when she cried. Anyway, this is neither here nor there, but it does seem from my limited perspective that CIO had more currency 10-20 years ago.

[Blahblah]

My son (born 2001) had reflux. He vomited at the drop of a hat. One of his triggers was crying. If I left him to cry to sleep the result was vomit. If I cuddled him to sleep (which we both enjoyed by the way -it wasn't a chore) the result was one fast asleep baby, and one set of parents who didn't have to strip off and redress a vomit covered baby and bedding.

I know what worked for my family. If CIO worked for yours, well all power to you. It's not an "I'm right and you are wrong" situation people. Each to their own.

[bananacat]

Um, I may be old and my memory may be fading , but I'm pretty sure there weren't any airbags in the 70's.

Yes, there are many new safety features and knowledge now, but slightly off-topic, in some ways people seem to be crappier parents in many ways. I never, ever, heard of anyone letting a baby cry-it-out as a technique in the 70's or 80's, and now you hear of many people doing it, even educated people. People might have occasionally done it if they were just frustrated out of their minds, but certainly not as something they would brag about and choose as an actual philosophy.

That's just one thing I can think of off the top of my grumpy old brain

Ok, so cars didn't even have airbags and that further proves my point that we didn't know as much about safety back then. As for CIO, my mom did that with me and my brother and we were born in in 1980 and 1985. It was very popular back then and she did it at the recommendation of her pediatrician, and every other parent she knew. Just because you never heard of it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Again, it's a topic that we know better now and it is waning in popularity among mainstream parents.

You really just sound like every other person who thinks the following generation is worse than their own.

[Mama Mia]

Ok, so cars didn't even have airbags and that further proves my point that we didn't know as much about safety back then. As for CIO, my mom did that with me and my brother and we were born in in 1980 and 1985. It was very popular back then and she did it at the recommendation of her pediatrician, and every other parent she knew. Just because you never heard of it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Again, it's a topic that we know better now and it is waning in popularity among mainstream parents.

You really just sound like every other person who thinks the following generation is worse than their own.

I don't think the following generation is worse than my own, I just don't think "new" automatically = "better".

So when people start in with " Oh we have new knowledge and know x y and z now" I think about how many times just in the last 30 years that expert opinion has changed, how many times it changed in the decades before that, and how many times it will change again.

I wasn't aware of CIO because I guess I didn't live in an area and/or know people who did that. It certainly would have been noticeable and remarked upon in my apartment complex if someone was letting their baby scream and scream and didn't try to DO something about it. And when I was taking child development courses in college and worked at day care centers it certainly isn't something that would have been considered appropriate. I live in an area that is mostly very lefty and/or latino, and neither of those groups tend to let their children cry, they pick them up and take care of them.

eta: I know "Latino" is not one thing, in the particular Latino, primarily Mexican culture that makes up my town, the norm is to pick up a crying baby.

[August]

Since leaving them to scream until they vomit on themselves for weeks at a time is not, in fact, what the mainstream methods of CIO recommend and since you seem completely ignorant of what the methods actually entail, I don't see the point of discussing it further. You claimed CIO is "fucking dangerous as hell", couldnt back that statement up, and now won't back down. If your facebook friends (as opposed to the looney fundies you follow) really are egging each other as their babies (who are probably too young to sleep train) scream for weeks on end, you need better and less stupid friends. And not for nothing, but 30 minutes of fussing is not the same as screaming until they vomit. You seem to have a problem with nuance, but that isn't a subtle distinction

As for research, read Weissbluth if you're actually curious. But as there is no evidence that CIO sleep training is actually harmful (certainly not "fucking dangerous as hell") and plenty of evidence that chronic sleep deprivation is, I suggest you climb down off your high horse, stop viewing the past through such rose tinted glasses, and endeavor not to be such a judgmental jerk.

Weissbluth has a policy on vomit. So, yeah, your supposed first point isn't a point at all. Weissbluth=mainstream CIO method=cry until vomit for weeks on end.

[burntnorton]

Actually, he recommends changing strategies if your baby vomits regularly. Indeed, he only generally recommends more extreme CIO methods when the baby actually has entrenched unhealthy sleep patterns. He also recommends constantly assessing progress and discusses typical timeliness, none of which stretch longer than a week or two. His book is about the need for sleep and establishing healthy sleep patterns generally - the CIO methods for fixing entrenched sleep problems are just what gets the most attention because any suggestion that constant parental soothing will not cure what ails any baby is sacrilege.

[Rosa]

Cry it out was definitely standard for working-class Midwesterners when I was growing up in Iowa & Wisconsin in the '70s, as was spanking with a wooden spoon & keeping it in your purse to show the kids when they misbehaved out around town. As was leaving children in cars in the parking lot so you could shop in peace. Every once in a while one of those dumb "we didn't wear seatbelts and our parents smoked around us" style memes goes around Facebook and lots of people my age and younger had both the crying it out and the spanking with wooden spoons (and many are weirdly proud of it.) I think it's older than that, though - my m-i-l (suburbs of Milwaukee, working class Catholic neighborhood & family) has a cautionary tale about a mom who went too far with CIO by leaving the baby on the porch in winter so she could sleep, but speaks approvingly of such methods as "put the baby in the crib with a bottle and go for a walk so you don't have to hear them cry."

It might be new in some social circles but not others. Before the internet people didn't really hear about other people's parenting techniques outside their own social circles, except for published advice books.

[clarinetpower]

So, I painted my nails last night. A lovely shade of pale, sparkly lavender. Really pretty and springy. I can't remember what it's called, but it's a Nicole by OPI.

Has anyone else tried the gel manicure? I'm curious. I've heard they can be wonderful, but Good Housekeeping doesn't recommend them.

[Bethella]

So, I painted my nails last night. A lovely shade of pale, sparkly lavender. Really pretty and springy. I can't remember what it's called, but it's a Nicole by OPI.

Has anyone else tried the gel manicure? I'm curious. I've heard they can be wonderful, but Good Housekeeping doesn't recommend them.

I have a friend who swears by them, but I've heard a rumor that the ultraviolet light used can cause skin cancer in the fingers/hands.

[Trynn]

Only waking up twice a night? Wow, I'm childless and that's WAY less than i wake up at night. Twice a night or every 4 hours, both of which have been mentioned on this thread, don't really sound that terrible to me.

[burntnorton]

Only waking up twice a night? Wow, I'm childless and that's WAY less than i wake up at night. Twice a night or every 4 hours, both of which have been mentioned on this thread, don't really sound that terrible to me.

Try being woken up two to three times a night by each of two babies (so three to six times total because they don't wake at the same time) in addition to your normal night wakings for several months. Imagine that it takes a minimum of 15 to 30 minutes to settle the baby (or wait for your partner to settle the baby) and fall back asleep yourself even when the baby doesn't need or want to eat. Imagine that this is preceded by a few months of poor sleep due to pregnancy followed by several weeks of feedings every 2 to 3 hours. Then imagine that you can't ever sleep in or take good naps because you work during the week, the babies are up for the day at six even on the weekends, and are cranky and overtired from their poor sleep and therefore don't take good naps themselves.

Trust me, it's terrible. It's terrible even when it's only one baby. Sleep is critically important for everyones health. ou had this sleep pattern without a baby, your doctor would be treating you for a sleep disorder. Which is why doctors recommend CIO as one option for older babies with sleep problems.

[Drina Adams]

We did a modified version of crying it out because we need our sleep and my husband can't do his job with night after night of broken sleep. I also found myself resentful of being woken and it spilled into how I was caring for baby. We didn't leave baby crying her heart out for hours, one or two minutes at most, comforted her, put her back down, repeat as needed. Took about a week and we've never looked back. We're better parents with a full nights sleeps behind us and baby became much happier too. Its been nothing but beneficial for us.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

The gel manicures are awesome, they dry so quickly and then never chip! You can buy these gloves that have holes in the fingertips so only the nails are exposed, to protect your skin from the light.

[Irishy]

What about co sleeping? I had 2 wakeful babies and I found that co sleeping got me a better night's sleep. I have nothing against CIO done humanely but I was too lazy.

[Daisy]

What about co sleeping? I had 2 wakeful babies and I found that co sleeping got me a better night's sleep. I have nothing against CIO done humanely but I was too lazy.

When my son was born we said we would never co sleep. Then we had a terrible sleeper who was still waking up several times a night at 6 months. We started letting him sleep with us out of sheer exhaustion, he slept a lot better, and we never looked back. Wish we would have tried that sooner!

[formergothardite]

What about co sleeping? I had 2 wakeful babies and I found that co sleeping got me a better night's sleep. I have nothing against CIO done humanely but I was too lazy.

So was I. My mom co slept with all of us, but I had this idea that I would feed the baby, lay the baby down and she would magically go to sleep. My husband and I would then stand beside her crib gazing down in adoration like they do in comercials. It did not happen that way. :lol:

[keen23]

I think I lucked out. Two of my three kids were great sleepers. The oldest was almost a magical baby- she slept 6 hours straight through at night from the day we took her home from the hospital- 11 PM - 5 AM. On her own. In a cradle at first, and then in a crib. My Pediatrician was horrified and wanted me to wake her in the middle of the sleep to feed her and I said absolutely not. She ate and gained weight, so no way was I going to ruin my luck with a forced feeding that neither of us (me or the baby) really wanted. The youngest was also a good sleeper- two 3 and 4 hour shifts at night. The husband would do the middle of the night feed, so I was sleeping almost through the night. The youngest slept in a swing for the first three months of her life, but that's a different story.

The middle child had colic however, and screamed and cried for the first six months of her life. She didn't sleep more than two hours in a row until she was six months old. She was a miserable child. And, sometimes, I had to put her down and walk away for 10-15 minutes so I could take a shower and sob on my own, because I was so exhausted. Daycares would not take her because she cried and screamed all the time. I had to take her to work with me, because she was only quiet attached to my boobs. Let me tell you, my co-workers were not thrilled at all by this development. Then, at six months, it was like some switch flipped, and she became a delightful child. This child who drove everyone crazy was suddenly a happy, bubbly baby. No reason to explain it. One day she was the worst thing in the world, the next day, she was a delight. This child would not fall asleep while nursing, or drinking a bottle however. She would only fall asleep after she had screamed herself into exhaustion. We would hold her and rock her and she'd scream and cry until she knocked herself out. Then she'd wake up 90 minutes to two hours later for the cycle to start again. There's no question that my kid had some kind of sleep disorder that she thankfully aged out of. Because if it had gone on much longer past 6 months, I don't know that I could have survived it, and my marriage certainly could not have.

[Always_Save]

if a child has been fed, changed, whatever..and is still crying, it really might be the best thing to lay her down and walk away for a bit.

ive had 7 kids, and ive let all of them cry it out. of course you wont let them carry on for hours, that IS cruel, but for half an hour or so? there is nothing wrong with that. i have a disabled child who also has a sleep disorder, and he sleeps maybe 2 hours at a time, and wakes up screaming bloody murder..i might let him cry for a few minutes, but if he keeps on, i snatch him up and let him sleep with us.

i would rather a person lay the child down and walk away for a bit than snap and hurt them out of stress from lack of sleep.

[EmmieJ]

if the popular cry it out methods are "fucking dangerous as hell"

I don't think the "cry it out" method is popular anymore. I can't prove it's "dangerous as hell" but I do believe it's lazy parenting, and cruel as well. I'm talking about an infant - whose only way to communicate is by crying, fussing, or laughing, gurgling, etc. If my baby cried, I went and soothed him. End of story. No way was I going to let him "cry it out" and learn at the tender age of 2 months old - hey your mom is a real bitch kid, get over it.

[EmmieJ]

if a child has been fed, changed, whatever..and is still crying, it really might be the best thing to lay her down and walk away for a bit.

ive had 7 kids, and ive let all of them cry it out. of course you wont let them carry on for hours, that IS cruel, but for half an hour or so? there is nothing wrong with that. i have a disabled child who also has a sleep disorder, and he sleeps maybe 2 hours at a time, and wakes up screaming bloody murder..i might let him cry for a few minutes, but if he keeps on, i snatch him up and let him sleep with us.

i would rather a person lay the child down and walk away for a bit than snap and hurt them out of stress from lack of sleep.

I would agree that if you, as the parent, are feeling about to snap and do something you shouldn't because your baby won't stop crying -- yes, put your baby down safely in his/her crib and walk away. I'm not comfortable with letting the baby cry for a half hour - that is still too long in my opinion, but five minutes, enough time to take some deep slow breaths, calm down, then return to soothe your child, is a good idea.

If your baby is crying for half an hour - something's wrong. They need you.

When my child began teething in earnest, there was one day where he would not stop crying. I was exhausted, my mom would rock him for a little bit to give me a break, then I'd take over again. But nothing would soothe him for more than a minute or two. Then my sister happened to call and I started crying, and she recommended a numbing gel for his gums. Mom ran out and got some, and that eased his pain. Now if I had been the kind of parent that let him "cry it out", he would have cried for who knows how long, in pain. Why is that okay? I don't want to be in such pain that I cry, and have people tell me to just suck it up and cry it out. Babies generally cry for a reason, not just to irritate their parents.

[keen23]

I would agree that if you, as the parent, are feeling about to snap and do something you shouldn't because your baby won't stop crying -- yes, put your baby down safely in his/her crib and walk away. I'm not comfortable with letting the baby cry for a half hour - that is still too long in my opinion, but five minutes, enough time to take some deep slow breaths, calm down, then return to soothe your child, is a good idea.

If your baby is crying for half an hour - something's wrong. They need you.

When my child began teething in earnest, there was one day where he would not stop crying. I was exhausted, my mom would rock him for a little bit to give me a break, then I'd take over again. But nothing would soothe him for more than a minute or two. Then my sister happened to call and I started crying, and she recommended a numbing gel for his gums. Mom ran out and got some, and that eased his pain. Now if I had been the kind of parent that let him "cry it out", he would have cried for who knows how long, in pain. Why is that okay? I don't want to be in such pain that I cry, and have people tell me to just suck it up and cry it out. Babies generally cry for a reason, not just to irritate their parents.

OK, so you had ONE DAY where your child cried a lot. But you were able to find a reason and solve the problem quickly. You have NO IDEA what it's like to have to parent a child who screams and cries day and night for months on end. When there's no reason for the cries except for "colic." When you are a fucking zombie because you haven't slept for more than 2 hours in a row since the kid was born. So, yeah, if numbing gel would have solved my kid's problem, I would have bought it in bulk.

[Black Aliss]

This one is a lot worse, found it on apartment therapy. Two kids in a walk in closet. The older toddler is on the bottom and the baby is on the top in a "floating crib" the side is "hacked" to flip down. Not fundies. Hipsters from San Francisco. :think:

That's. . .that's. . .it's like a cleaner and less cluttered version of Emily!

[EmmieJ]

OK, so you had ONE DAY where your child cried a lot. But you were able to find a reason and solve the problem quickly. You have NO IDEA what it's like to have to parent a child who screams and cries day and night for months on end. When there's no reason for the cries except for "colic." When you are a fucking zombie because you haven't slept for more than 2 hours in a row since the kid was born. So, yeah, if numbing gel would have solved my kid's problem, I would have bought it in bulk.

Um, I didn't say I only had ONE day where my child cried a lot. I told a story about an event in his and my life, wherein I was frazzled to tears.

No, my child was not colicky. No, I didn't have days and nights where he cried for months on end. But I was a single mom and that meant I was the one who dealt with it all. I actually do know what it's like to be a "fucking zombie" because I haven't slept for more than 2 hours straight. That was my life during the first few months of his life. I have been in the trenches - my experience is not your experience, but every one who has had a baby knows that first year is probably the most difficult and demanding year, in terms of sleep deprivation and general stress/worry.

I'm sorry my post struck such a nerve with you. My comment was in response to the concept that "letting babies cry it out" is a good method for child rearing in general. It was not addressed to a parent struggling with a colicky baby.

I still stand by my opinion that it's not a particularly good idea to leave your baby to cry for more than five or ten minutes without trying to soothe him/her. Walking away and letting them cry for half an hour isn't a parenting method I'd recommend.

[Always_Save]

i have been dealing with this for 3 years..my son just turned 3 a couple of weeks ago, and he still wont sleep..we have tried everything under the sun, but he wont take naps, and some nights, he isnt asleep until 2-3 in the morning and then hes back up at 7...it sucks. (this has nothing to do with anything, im just griping)

apparently kids with his syndrome have these sleep issues, but most kids with it aren't delayed either and can entertain themselves and such. i still think for an older child, letting them cry is the best way...as for any child under 9-10 months? i WOULD go and comfort him.

[LadyBlue]

Semi O/T, but there's now some evidence that "colic" is related to migraines. Children who had "colic" as babies were far more likely to have migraines than children who didn't. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... s/2086121/ (not broken, news site)

Even more reason not to leave babies to cry. I certainly wouldn't want to be left crying in pain.