I'm really angry at Christianity right now

[SunnyAndrsn]

Well, I think what you do with faith is up to you. It's about your interpretation and what's in your mind and heart, regardless of church. I think you can have faith without church or institutionalized religion. I don't think we should let religion poison faith and I don't think we should let Christianity and the Church poison Jesus.

But ultimately this is your decision, take some time and search though it. You could try reading and researching different beliefs and opinions and see where that takes you. Personally, I like Blake but that's just me. I hope you find what you are looking for (even if that's nothing).

Could not agree more with this statement! I also hope you find what you are looking for. I know your younger, O Latin, and have had quite a journey already with your faith (as given by your statements here on FJ), so I do hope you can learn from your friends and their situations. Most of all, I hope you can compassionately help them through their pain because you are a Christian, and isn't that what Christ would do? Love and help those who are hurting?

[ladypuglover]

Alecto wins 5 billion internets! :clap:

:clap: :dance: :clap:

[Lainey]

I Ray Stevens.

[xDreamerx]

Hehe that pic is funny.

Here's a perspective that might be helpful and if it isn't that's okay to. You can be Jesus follower and not necessarily a Christian (as in someone who believes in all the tenants of Christianity). Jesus was a social revolutionary first and foremost. Someone who helped the sick and the poor and lifted up the lowest in society. He was, in my books, a pretty hippie guy. He loved people who were outcasts, who the rest of society looked down upon and sneered at. He loved them inspite of the fact that they might dirty or poor or unlike him and the establishment. He welcomed everyone, even those without a voice, including women. I think the notion of radical social equality is something everyone can strive for, regardless of your belief in one faith or another. Even if you don't regard Jesus as divine or as the Christ, his message as a person is still fantastic.

[latraviata]

Hehe that pic is funny.

Here's a perspective that might be helpful and if it isn't that's okay to. You can be Jesus follower and not necessarily a Christian (as in someone who believes in all the tenants of Christianity). Jesus was a social revolutionary first and foremost. Someone who helped the sick and the poor and lifted up the lowest in society. He was, in my books, a pretty hippie guy. He loved people who were outcasts, who the rest of society looked down upon and sneered at. He loved them inspite of the fact that they might dirty or poor or unlike him and the establishment. He welcomed everyone, even those without a voice, including women. I think the notion of radical social equality is something everyone can strive for, regardless of your belief in one faith or another. Even if you don't regard Jesus as divine or as the Christ, his message as a person is still fantastic.

http://nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

[Cran]

I do not think that this link presents unbiased information, Latraviata, but anyway, in order to see Jesus as he is presented in the gospels as a rolemodel whle eschewing the modern churches, it is not necessary that there is historical proof of his existence. After all, we know of the existence of Socrates only through Platon.

Even if he did never exists, the way he is portrayed can serve as an ideal for many people.

[latraviata]

I do not think that this link presents unbiased information, Latraviata, but anyway, in order to see Jesus as he is presented in the gospels as a rolemodel whle eschewing the modern churches, it is not necessary that there is historical proof of his existence. After all, we know of the existence of Socrates only through Platon.

Even if he did never exists, the way he is portrayed can serve as an ideal for many people.

What are you saying Cran, there is no proof Jesus existed, Jim Walker is not the only one, many scholars claim there is no proof he actually existed. There is no proof God exists, what else is there to believe in?

Well, your choice of course.

[mythoughtis]

O'Latin

You can be Christian without belonging to a Christian church. In fact, that is the way I prefer it. It is not the religion that is the problem, it is the people that practice it badly. They forget the parts about worrying about the plank in their owe eye rather than the speck in others. They also forget that they can't save themselves by being or pretending to be more perfect than anyone else. ... if that was the case Christianity would have never come into being.

But, then, I also believe God invented multiple religions, so go be something else if you want. If you believe in God, it is all good.

[msHailey]

Jesus was a social revolutionary first and foremost. Someone who helped the sick and the poor and lifted up the lowest in society. He was, in my books, a pretty hippie guy. He loved people who were outcasts, who the rest of society looked down upon and sneered at. He loved them inspite of the fact that they might dirty or poor or unlike him and the establishment. He welcomed everyone, even those without a voice, including women. I think the notion of radical social equality is something everyone can strive for, regardless of your belief in one faith or another. Even if you don't regard Jesus as divine or as the Christ, his message as a person is still fantastic.

Jesus was/is first and foremost Christ, the Messiah, living Son of God sent to earth to bring salvation to ALL people. Everything else He did was an extension of that. I do get you're point though, that even if you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, everything he did as a person was pretty amazing and something to strive for. :)

[Austin]

It does bother me that the first gospel, commonly accepted as Mark, wasn't written until something like 40 years after Jesus was crucified. That's an awful long time and it makes me wonder if Mark ever even knew Jesus personally, not to mention the other gospel writers (at least the gospels which made it into the canon - obviously there were many, many more), who wrote their books after Mark even. I don't know what to make of it and I'm still working to try to figure it all out.

[VodouDoll]

Austin, there's a great course from Yale on iTunesU about that very topic, "Introduction to the New Testament History and Literature." The lectures examine the origins of Christianity from an historical perspective by treating the NT as an historical document rather than a theological one. I really learned a lot about what's reliable, what isn't, who wrote different parts, etc. http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/i ... -testament

Interestingly enough, though the professor is both openly gay and a practicing Episcopalian, he grew up straight-up fundie. In a few lectures he tells stories about his childhood: tiny home church in Texas, only the people in their particular church were going to heaven, prayer closets, his mom practiced wifely submission, etc.

[Austin]

Austin, there's a great course from Yale on iTunesU about that very topic, "Introduction to the New Testament History and Literature." The lectures examine the origins of Christianity from an historical perspective by treating the NT as an historical document rather than a theological one. I really learned a lot about what's reliable, what isn't, who wrote different parts, etc. http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/i ... -testament

Interestingly enough, though the professor is both openly gay and a practicing Episcopalian, he grew up straight-up fundie. In a few lectures he tells stories about his childhood: tiny home church in Texas, only the people in their particular church were going to heaven, prayer closets, his mom practiced wifely submission, etc.

My son took a similar course at his Lutheran university last year. The text was by Bart Ehrman and he covers many of those same topics from a purely historical perspective. I read his book, Misquoting Jesus, a couple of years ago and found the historical aspect of it to be very compelling and pretty much addressed questions I had always had. Just things that didn't make sense to me about scripture, and was basically told my whole life that those questions weren't appropriate.

Unfortunately, they have never gone away, and when one is trying to hold onto a faith that is based upon the authority/authenticity/inerrancy of scripture, if the scripture is not reliable. . . well, then the whole thing kind of unravels.

[xDreamerx]

It does bother me that the first gospel, commonly accepted as Mark, wasn't written until something like 40 years after Jesus was crucified. That's an awful long time and it makes me wonder if Mark ever even knew Jesus personally, not to mention the other gospel writers (at least the gospels which made it into the canon - obviously there were many, many more), who wrote their books after Mark even. I don't know what to make of it and I'm still working to try to figure it all out.

And Mark's gospel is dated as the earliest. People often make the mistake of asserting that Jesus said one thing or another, but we have no primary sources of him and no way of proving what he said. We only have sayings that were attributed to him. There's this really cool seminar of Biblical scholars who get to together and try to discern which ones are...I don't want to say "true" because that's the wrong word...but I suppose more likely to have possibly been said by him? I know this a huge grey zone, but I think it's really cool. It's called "The Jesus Seminar."

Here's the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

I actually think the idea of trying to get picture of the historical Jesus is interesting and can be reaffirming. But that's just me. I feel better when things are questioned and explored (with necessarily reaching conclusions). I agree with you, assuming that scripture is perfect or is some kind of accurate record is just illogical.

[xDreamerx]

Jesus was/is first and foremost Christ, the Messiah, living Son of God sent to earth to bring salvation to ALL people. Everything else He did was an extension of that. I do get you're point though, that even if you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, everything he did as a person was pretty amazing and something to strive for. :)

That's you're belief. It's not something that can be proven. The divinity of Jesus was decided in the 4th century.

[msHailey]

That's you're belief. It's not something that can be proven. The divinity of Jesus was decided in the 4th century.

True enough, a big part of Christianity is faith. However I do believe there is proof out there.

thedevineevidencecom/index.html < take away from it what you will /[Not an attempt to be confrontational and argue my point to death, just a website I found]

[Guest Anonymous]

True enough, a big part of Christianity is faith. However I do believe there is proof out there.

thedevineevidencecom/index.html < take away from it what you will /[Not an attempt to be confrontational and argue my point to death, just a website I found]

1.) That link doesn't work. Maybe because "divine" is misspelled, maybe for some other reason. (LoLCats clawed it to death inside the internets?)

2.) MsHailey sounds like a pre-k level kids' Sunday School teacher's name.

3.) Thanks for the mini sermon. *Side eye.*

4.) Do you even go to this school?

[msHailey]

1). I don't know maybe, sure lets go with cats lol

2). Its a nickname the little kids I babysat for for seven years gave me, they just moved, I miss them. It was either that or something referencing Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and I couldn't think of anything clever enough to do Buffy justice.

3). No prob. I can give you a longer one if you like /I get sarcasm, and agree I went a little overboard. In, my defense I just delurked and am a little "post a comment" happy, what can I say, its fun and I've never done it before. I plan on trying out every smiley icon at some point too. ;)

4). No... I just have a lot of feelings (Thank you for the opportunity to reference Mean Girls!)

[daharyn]

I personally think there are loads of reasons to be angry at Christianity every day, O Latin. Few institutions have done greater damage to humankind, on levels both big and small. That said, as someone who believes in some stuff (not God per se) anyway, I hope that whatever you choose to believe in, you continue to grow in your spirituality throughout your life. Building and developing our own personal moral codes helps us all be good citizens! (The trouble begins when we start to think others have to believe the way we do...)

Also, while I don't agree with anything msHailey is promoting, I do understand the desire to use every smiley available in the editing window: :animals-duckie: :character-smurfbrother: :sci-fi-robot:

[Austin]

The smilies are definitely addictive. We're just not used to so many choices!

There are a lot of Christians here at FJ, and I am not angry at Christianity, per se. I'm sometimes angered at the bigotry and injustice that is perpetrated in its name, but even if I am not able to resolve my questions and restore my faith, I would always be welcoming of Christianity. My husband and sons are Christians and so are many of my friends (just not of the fundie variety).

MsHaily, I've read all of the "evidence" stuff you could probably send my way. We have Lee Stroebel books on our shelves at home and I've read them. I was raised fundie-lite and accepted Jesus as my personal savior at age 8. I know the Bible pretty well and could still probably beat most people in a sword drill (fundie jargon). I just don't find it compelling any more and I do not think that the answer to every scriptural discrepancy should be "well, God breathed it (inspired it), so ultimately we can't question". I don't accept that any more. The historical record doesn't support it and the contradictions are legion.

My childhood (and most of my adult) faith was based on sola scripture. We were always told "don't question the Bible! If you stop believing in even one thing - the whole thing unravels". And. . . uh. . . yeah, it does. I sometimes wish my faith was at least somewhat tradition-based, like Lutherans. At least the Lutherans I know (I know there are fundie ones - I mean the mainstream ones). They balance scripture with liturgy and tradition. It doesn't all boil down to one thing. Their faith is not so black and white and they're good with that. *sigh*

[snozzberry]

MsHaily, I've read all of the "evidence" stuff you could probably send my way. We have Lee Stroebel books on our shelves at home and I've read them. I was raised fundie-lite and accepted Jesus as my personal savior at age 8. I know the Bible pretty well and could still probably beat most people in a sword drill (fundie jargon). I just don't find it compelling any more and I do not think that the answer to every scriptural discrepancy should be "well, God breathed it (inspired it), so ultimately we can't question". I don't accept that any more. The historical record doesn't support it and the contradictions are legion.

My childhood (and most of my adult) faith was based on sola scripture. We were always told "don't question the Bible! If you stop believing in even one thing - the whole thing unravels". And. . . uh. . . yeah, it does. I sometimes wish my faith was at least somewhat tradition-based, like Lutherans. At least the Lutherans I know (I know there are fundie ones - I mean the mainstream ones). They balance scripture with liturgy and tradition. It doesn't all boil down to one thing. Their faith is not so black and white and they're good with that. *sigh*

I can understand where you are coming from, though I grew up in a liturgical tradition, swung wide to fundie-lite, got my Bible credentials from a big fundi-lite Bible college, and married a pastor who was on staff at a fundie-lite church before swinging back around to the liturgical/mainline traditions with a good dose of universalism on the side. I suspect you could beat me at the sword drills, but I can still hear the echoes of the many theology and Bible courses I sat through. Both my husband and I found that no amount of professional Christianity nor Bible degrees could "protect" us from what happens when the answers to the questions cease to be compelling.

These days I would say that both my husband and I struggle some of the same feelings about Christianity that the OP does. I don't know that I'm able to successfully disconnect Christianity from "those who are practicing it wrong" as another poster put it because I'm not confident that one doesn't flow from the other. In some ways it seems as if the fundies I most have issues with are the logical conclusion of the things we learned at Bible college. While we love our mainline/liturgical church it's still a process we're struggling through. I don't know where we'll end up five years down the road, but I do know the more time goes on, the more general my faith becomes.

[browngrl]

What is a sword drill?

[dawbs]

What is a sword drill?

Your bible is 'the sword of the spirit'.

So all the kiddos hold their bible by the spine (so opening for the pages up).

The 'teacher' says something like "First John 1:9"

Kids repeat back the verse....

teacher says "charge!"

Everyone frantically looks up the verse (it's 'cheating' to have it memorized) and whoever stands up and starts reading it first wins.

(I wasn't a 'champion' but I did a lot of these. and Mr. Dawbs wonders why it irks me if he can't find the passage in the church pew bible ;) )

[Austin]

What is a sword drill?

Learning the 66 books of the Bible is stressed big time in fundie/fundie-lite land, at least in my childhood. The Bible leader would call out a verse, say Habakkuk 1:3, and everyone would race to find it first. If you found it first, you read it out loud real quick and that's how you "won". I spent an unfortunate amount of time in these types of pursuits between the ages of 8-12. I remember they plied us a lot with butterscotch candies :)

[ems]

I don't think we should let religion poison faith and I don't think we should let Christianity and the Church poison Jesus.

.

This!

I'm also with those who recommended reading Anne Lamott. She's just so real about her life and faith.

[nutella addict]

I grew up Lutheran and definitely not fundie, but we still learned the 66 books of the Bible as something to keep us busy during Sunday School, and I liked memorizing things so I was happy to do that - when you're little it's kind of fun to chant off a list and see who can get the furthest. Heck, it still is now (my friends and I love lists and are Sporcle addicts - periodic table, states, presidents, capitals, countries of the world, digits in pi, whatever) Once in third grade - and I can't remember the exact context - someone in my actual school mentioned the books and I started to list them off along with the teacher or something and I got through the better part of the OT before I trailed off, and everyone kinda stared and the teacher said she'd never met anyone who'd memorized even most of the books before.

I appreciate looking at all historical arguments and questioning things, but I do still think Jesus existed as a person (there was a census and he's on there, although I don't have a source right now, and also I spend a lot of time with old literature and history and generally for something that long ago, within 200 years is often as best as we can get, 40 is pretty impressive from a historical standpoint actually, still within living memory) and personally believe he was divine and the Messiah and all of that, but I also think that people should come to their own conclusions about everything and I make a point not to force my beliefs on anyone, especially since I'm always open to learning myself. The point is, whether or not Jesus existed and whether or not he was the Son of God, a lot of the stories attributed to him are, IMO, a great thing to model one's life on - I'm thinking love and forgiveness and acknowledging imperfections without being judgmental, mainly, here. I realize that a lots of "Christians" do a terrible job of that, but that doesn't discount what those messages suggest. It would be great if people associated with people from all walks of life and cared about the poor and the sick and the elderly and all of that.