Unsocialized Homeschoolers

[AmyP]

Let me just add to the chorus here. When you homeschool, socialization is THE thing that everyone wants to talk about when they find out you homeschool. It is the first thing anyone brings up, and then they follow with the standard "I don't know how you do it...... blah blah blah, you must have so much patience, I could NEVER spend that much time with my kids, and so on, and so on, and so on. People are just making conversation, but it gets a bit tedious after a while. It is right up there with the never ending conversation about my kids red hair. Everyone feels the need to talk about it.

[Rachel333]

As a former homeschooler (up until 10th grade), I do think there is some validity to the socialization complaint. I did all the music and sports classes and homeschool groups--often I'd have an activity every day of the week--but it's not really the same. And in my experience, homeschoolers usually are different socially. Different isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I definitely think it exists.

I remember seeing that there too. The Duggars are involved in a homeschooling group. They used to play bromball through that group. I think compared to the Maxwells, the Duggar kids do have more socialization skills. There are some fundie homeschooling families that don't allow their children to socialize that much.

Broomball actually has nothing to do with the homeschool group, it's just popular with homeschoolers. Every time I went I'd hear complaints about the immodestly dressed women and "illegals" who also attended, but there's nothing they could do about it. I don't think the Duggars ever attended the homeschool group, either. They're definitely doing better than the Maxwells, but I don't think they got a whole lot of socialization.

[jenny_islander]

Home educating parents spend a lot of time answering that question because it's generally the first thing out of someone's mouth when you mention that you homeschool.

I homeschooled for several years and I got so freaking tired of that damn question... especially because it often came from someone that I was chatting with while waiting for my daughter to finish her taekwondo lesson or while I had my kids and half the kids in the neighbourhood at the playground. :roll:

People also mix up "socializing" and "socialization" ~ the former being the playtime/hang out/etc, the latter being the way that a child learns how to function within a set society....

Tell me about it! The "best" time and place I got the socialization question (with bonus limpid sympathetic look because obv. I had never thought about it before) was as her kid and my kid and a pack of other kids galloped along the hallway that was lined along both walls with kids and parents sitting on blankets waiting for the kids' cues to dance in the big spring recital thing.

My oldest wants more socializing, but what with less recess, shorter lunch hours (25 minutes, seriously?), and more and more studying for those pointless bubble tests, I know she wouldn't get it at regular school. As for socialization, she's out of the house with people who are not me more days than not during the week. Of course, we live in an old-fashioned small town, so she can walk to game time at the library, it's a 5-minute drive to open swim, 10 minutes to Girl Scout meetings, etc.

But the big question has to be academics.

[theresa]

I have seen isolationism really encouraged in my associations. I remember when I first started home-schooling 20+ years ago, hearing Gregg Harris telling us how our children do not need friends, hearing leaders at meetings laughing about not wanting their children to associate with the neighborhood children and giving clever ideas on how to accomplish that, also telling us why our children should not be involved with sports, girl scouts, church youth groups, etc., also hearing how having them be with grandparents, cousins, other family members was not a good idea either. It seemed everything and everyone was a bad influence - other than like-minded people. Most of the people we met through home-school groups were very suspect of other peoples children. Many families would not allow their children to go to others homes unless the whole family would be there and the children were always in earshot of the adults. It seemed as though children were never allowed to just be children, to be silly. I got sucked into this ultra fundamentalist lifestyle. Before long, we were wearing only dresses, not listening to any contemporary music and living a very isolated life. My children, most are adults, suffer because of this now with varying degrees of depression and social anxiety. I'm really working on trying to help them find friends but where we live makes it extremely difficult. I want nothing to do with christian home-school support groups and there aren't any secular ones as we are far from a big city. I don't want my children feeling like less of a person or christian because they listen to secular music, dress fashionable, wear make-up, have piercings, etc. Just so sick of it all. It's funny cause when I first started reading FJ, I was appalled, then it became quite an eye opening experience as I saw the pride and condescension I had towards others.

Terry

[Rosa]

The isolationist parents can definitely make their kids "different" even if they go to school - we had a pack of strict JW kids at my middle school who definitely stood out and only really talked to each other, and I had a Mormon friend in high school whose (abusive) parents did their damnedest to isolate her - timed her ride home from school, did't let her go places, chose her classes, etc. It doesn't necessarily come from the religion, but there are sure a lot of controlling, abusive assholes who cloak their treatment of their families in religious language.

The difference is that the kids who are out of the house ON THEIR OWN for 5 or 6 hours a day have some chinks in the wall.

I'm not saying all homeschoolers are abusive or even isolationist - but that the people who ARE abusive ordeliberately isolating (sorry, "sheltering") their children can do it a lot better if they also homeschool. And the public face of homeschooling sure doesn't seem to differentiate between the two.

[silvia]

I know some people close to admissions at a Big! Ten! University! and the way they tell it, homeschoolers tend to split into two very different groups. Some homeschoolers are almost overprepared, they are good at self-motivated learning, have a solid content background, perhaps will have some social awkwardness but generally will do well. The other group is so woefully underprepared that they have no idea of just how unprepared they are, and will not make it past the first cut, if they even have the ability to apply at all.

Thing is, there are plenty of people in that latter group who still think of themselves as having gotten a "far better" education that the straw-men public school students they imagine. The problem is that more than just any "socialization," lots of those people never actually compare themselves to age peers, and so they honestly seem to have no idea of just what a "standard public school education" requires students to know. It is a rude awakening when they find out.

Aside from the actual planned and/or ideological content of the SOTDRT, where it seems the SOTDRT most often fails is that it doesn't stay rigorous. So many parents on fundie blogs talk about how their kids can learn from life, they will learn math from helping mom cook, they will build things in the yard with Dad, they will read "living books" for history, they will go on nature walks - they can do very little official "schooling" and still keep up, in the early elementary years.

Problem is, the whole "just learn by living" thing is much harder to do when you hit even upper elementary. Math isn't so obvious or used every day in the kitchen anymore once you start getting above the most simple of algebra, reading should be using longer texts and actually getting critical (I agree that getting critical is probably one skill actively omitted by most SOTDRT, also), science has to be about more than just looking at and naming plants.

Add to that, in so many SOTDRT households, Mom has had tons of kids after the first one, and so when the kids get to upper elementary, they end up being made to teach their siblings rather than continue their own studies. It's easier to teach a younger sibling phonics than to keep up with your own studies which now should be requiring quite a few hours in the day in addition to your household tasks (since you're not learning from your household tasks anymore). This is particularly true when no one is giving you direction anymore because hey, Mom is busy, and it's hard to learn chemistry out of a workbook only. Meanwhile there's plenty of praise for teaching the younger kids. The younger kids think you're so smart since wow, you can read, and Mom is thrilled to death that you're helping out. Compare that to hours of struggling over a difficult concept on your own, and yeah, is it any wonder which way that choice goes?

There are way too many blogs where the oldest kid hits around 12 or 13 and just kinda... stops making serious progress in school. What seemed awesome when that first kid was reading books at age 3 or whatever it is doesn't look so great anymore when all the "regular" kids have long since caught up and gone on further because they are forced to actually spend time on their OWN studies under the guidance of a real teacher.

Can mom be the real teacher, in a homeschool? Sure. There are plenty of success stories out there. But school has to be more of an "official thing" after about the 4th grade, whether you do it at home or not, and way too many SOTDRT parents are just too busy or hands off to follow through on that part.

Amen. Exhibit A of the lack of rigor you mention: this appalling comment posted on YLCF/ Kindred Grace (original post at kindredgrace.com/the-unschooler-tells-all/):

"Everly,

I must say reading your post gave me confidence and hope as a homeschooling parent. I feel as if I do not fit the bill as a disciplined 'teacher parent' sometimes, I think I have to do exactly what we were brainwashed to do in public school in order to give my children a 'proper' education. I realize that is not the case. You have given me hope to know that my last homeschooler in 10th grade will be just fine if she can’t completely understand to a “T†geometry, but nor do I. My other child, who is in her 2nd year of college now, tutors my 10th what I do not understand. Ok, yes chemistry to.We completely tossed that one out the window. But you have let me know that I can only do what I am supposed to do (actually suppose to do isn’t quite defined yet or maybe it never will be), the job to learn is theirs. I have put many, many hours in what I think is necessary, I wished I could get in the head of every homeschooling parent. My question for you is “Will you homeschool your children someday'?"

Translation: At times I feel bad about giving my kids a crap education, but you got a crap education too and you seem to have turned out all right! Soli Deo gloria!

(Disclaimer: I'm not against homeschooling in general, just the rigor-less SOTDRT variety.)

[boysmom]

Most of the hard core fundie kids won't actually join the real world though. I suspect though that what would hold them back is more the odd personality that they inherited from their parents, because usually a regular type person isn't going to go for that very extreme version of fundamentalism.

I do know a boy at my son's school who has been homeschooled and is now enrolled for only 2 classes. He doesn't seem to get how to relate to peers in the sense that he tattled for them chewing tobacco (is that really a bad thing though?) and dresses slightly different. But he does fine when I talk to him, I suspect he just takes after his mom in general, who, though I like her, is relatively odd.

I did homeschool for 3 years, but my kids were very active in sports, scouts, homeschool activities, etc and I'm not fundie or anything (Catholic.)

[jenny_islander]

Homeschooling certainly allows for a thicker bubble.

Count me in as another mom who won't join the local homeschoolers' association. They cluck about the latest inflammatory press release from the HSLDA and their coordinator keeps a wooden spoon in her purse.

[wild little fox]

People also mix up "socializing" and "socialization" ~ the former being the playtime/hang out/etc, the latter being the way that a child learns how to function within a set society....

Yep. ITA.

As usual, I only can add my own experience. The reason I come off as odd and don't fit in my social groups is from years of isolation. I will always be a bit odd and have trouble with socialization. Quite a bit of it escapes me.

[FairyPrincessK]

I'm surprised by how much people seem to think socialization is The BIG question homeschoolers need to answer for. While ITA its an issue with the isolated SODRT bunch, I don't really think it is such a big deal if the kids go to various lessons, are exposed to some pop culture etc. I went to mostly public schools, but we also travelled a lot when I was growing up and I spent some time home schooling, some time in foreign schools and some time in public schools. While I was fairly isolated at times, I have a wide variety of other experiences that meant I adapted to the social rules when I needed to. TBH, I think the biggest thing was that my parents didn't allow me to watch t.v. until I was in my last two years of high school. It took me YEARS to catch up with all of the references and to this day I still don't recognize most actors and don't get some references to particular television programmes and films.

ITA agree with GardenVarietyCitizen--it really is more about sustaining rigor than careful socialization. Unless a child has some special needs in the area of socialization then a well-rounded education is going to mostly cover the skills they need to pick up social rules and cues anyway.

[GiggleOfGirls]

There's a secular homeschool group in my area. That's the one that my children participate in.

I don't know about homeschooling, per se, making children be weird. I went to public school in elementary school and I was still weird. I wasn't isolated either. Having a year of just being homeschooled and then having the choice to start attending certain electives at the local public schools was pretty much exactly what I needed to mature a bit socially and, while I was still weird, I actually had a couple friends in middle school and a whole group of friends in high school.

I'm pretty sure that part of the reason my parents pulled me out of school in the first place was the fact that I was weird and horribly bored in school.

[Rosa]

You know, given the public face of homeschooling, it's possible people ask about socialization because they are suppressing the horrible urge to ask things like "Do you teach the girls to read?" and "Can I see your science textbooks?"

[BlondeAgent007]

I have only gotten to know 2 people that were home schooled (unless there were random others... I'm a little old now to be asking people where they went to high school), and they had serious social issues. Ira dormed in a single room at my huge University. It took half the semester to convince him to leave his room and hang out with us. He was really nervous and awkward whenever he did (about 2 months into dorming in your freshman year of college, most people have made at least 1 or two good friends since you are together sooo often). After hanging out a few times he became very comfortable VERY quickly, for some reason. He was starting to get the hang of it and decided he was going to drink alcohol with us one night. He threw up all over the bathroom and himself. We took him back to his room, changed his clothes and put him to bed. He didn't leave his room again for the rest of the semester and transferred out over winter break.

Bane went to Community College a few years ago with a very pretty friend of mine that had a major drinking problem. She effectively used the crap out of him and then tossed him away when he got too annoying. It's hard to identify anything specific with Bane, just his whole interaction process with (especially) females his own age was incredibly off. My most vivid odd memory was that she had had him pick her up in the afternoon and drive her out to the ghetto. She had money to return to me, so I went there to meet her. She was hanging out at the end of the block drinking with some guys she had introduced herself to in the neighborhood. When I asked where Bane was, she pointed to a house up the street. Apparently she had left him in a random house by himself for several hours. He was sitting on the couch in a house in the ghetto, watching scooby doo with a smile plastered on his face. He assured me he was having a good time. A normal guy, even with low self esteem, would have gotten fed up and left by that point. He still continued to call her and drive her around after that. When she "broke it off" with him, even though they had never been romantic and she treated him like garbage, he was very upset and kept texting me to tell him what he did. Both situations were really tragic.

I guess I should also point out that even with school I did at least 3 outside activities a week. While I did make friends at these places while I was there, only once did it actually cross over into a friendship outside of the particular lesson I was taking. I liked talking to them there, but most of my friends were from school, the neighborhood, or kids of family friends. It was a way to do an activity I enjoyed, not my biggest social outlet. I think that's why parents question socialization a lot at afterschool activities. My sister and I didn't pull close friends from those things. (my brother had friends from hockey and baseball, but he did not meet them there. Our district had 6 elemtary and 4 middle schools. The schools all had to be broken up and kids redistributed to keep them even. He retained his friends from elementary school through his hockey and baseball activities. Now that I think about it, this was also how my sister and I had friends that were not at our current school. We built the friendships in elemtary and were able to retain them through the next batch of years).

I guess that may be why some parents don't really understand the socialize-at-karate class: yes, their kid talks to kids there, but they might not make any good friends there.

[Rosa]

I mean, I've known some really impressive homeschooling parents and I ask them things like "how is she juggling Arabic and Latin?" or "what are you using for early level history texts?" but then I meet random parents I sort of know from the neighborhood, they announce they have started homeschooling (it's been a big fad around here, though I think it's run its course mostly) and have to suppress the urge to ask things like "how are YOU teaching MATH?"

As a horrible example, my ex's daughter, her mom "homeschooled" using finger math and whatever texts were laying around the house (mostly Robert Jordan books). She didn't want to mess with hard things like "paper" or "division". So we had to put the poor girl through a lot of math drills and handwriting practice when she finally started public school. And the question I really really wanted to ask before she finally gave up and admitted public school might be better was, "How do you teach when you're high all the time?" but what I actually asked was "Isn't she lonely?"

[VVV]

Actual testimonies from a fundie homeschooling site: “I can remember being really excited when my mom told me I no longer had to do certain subjects, that I could just do what I loved to do (which at the time was making lists and copying text, something I now get paid to do). Before (homeschooling method) I always felt like I had to do what I was “supposed to†before I could enjoy what I wanted to do. It was such a relief to be freed from that expectation.†~ (name removed), age 26

“I like doing the things I'm interested in. I get to spend all day learning through things that I like to do. I like how much time I have to write stories, read good books, knit, dance, make music, cross-stitch, and make movies with my siblings. I think that school at home would be overwhelming. I wouldn't like to cram my brain full of facts using textbooks and curriculum. ~ (name removed), age 15

“I think school work would make my head hurt. (homeschooling method) is fun because I don't have to do textbooks and workbooks. I get to do what interests me. I get to build with LEGOs, design video games, draw, and make movies.†~ (name removed), age 14

Edited to add another one: “I really like (homeschooling method) because I get to pursue my interests. I get to write stories, make movies, use movie editing software, dance, and read. I'm so glad we don't do school at home because I think it would be boring and I would get in trouble a lot because I wouldn't want to do all that overwhelming stuff.†~ (name removed), age 12

:roll:

[Maggie Mae]

I'm sure some of it is just lack of knowledge as well. I rarely encounter people with children and actually want to talk to them, but when it happens and if it's homeschooling, I tend to meet the secular ones. The ones who homeschool so their kids can train for skiing/snowboarding/track is what I see most often, and those kids tend to be not at all different (maybe a little more mature) than the average kid on the street/slope. I don't know though, my sample size is very limited.

Once I met a woman who homeskooled her kids. She was trying to get me to buy some sort of grain mill at an education fair and somehow homeschooling came up. I told her politely that I might consider it one day, but I don't like that all homeschoolers were lumped into ATI, because I disagree with that. She told me no one does that anymore and somehow I ended up on an email list. Now I get emails about keeping our girls 'pure' and weird propaganda about Obama being "evil" and "end times." I almost wish I had asked about socialization, because they live in the middle of nowhere and I doubt those kids ever see another human except on Sundays.