Unsocialized Homeschoolers

[FairyPrincessK]

Kim, at Life in a Shoe has trotted out yet another rebuttal to the apparently continuous and repeated cry that one of the main problems with homeschooling is in that students will not be prepared for the real world.

It seems as if homeschooling Christian moms spend a lot of time defending this aspect of homeschooling from the invisible brigade of persecutors. In fact, I think this is probably one of the most minor critiques of their style of homeschooling out there and one that even the most adamant anti-homeschooler (of which I am not) do not deny is very easily remedied.

Instead, I'm far more concerned about the diversity of opinions, learning styles and learning materials offered (easily remedied by a co-op, although i confess that the notion of a like-minded co-op rather undermines this) the probable case that those intended to teach the student are themselves not qualified, but manage to delude themselves that learning math purely online is somehow superior and the self-limiting curriculem that isn't supplemented by a voracious reader able to take books out of the library unattended (either at school or after school). Not to mention exposure to opinions and ideas that are not your own.

Of course, worst of all is the idea that Perry Coughlan is in charge of determining which crap gets disseminated to his spawn and the fact that looking after younger children is part and parcel of your school day. ---> :ugeek: I also think this smiley looks like P.C. I know. I know. I can't help it.

[Effie]

Dunno, I suspect they get little to no secondary socialization. The primary socialization can't compensate for the lack of secondary socialization.

[FairyPrincessK]

I didn't mean to imply that lack of socialisation wasn't a problem, just that I think these moms seem to think that answering THIS complaint about homeschooling means that they've answered any and all legitimate critiques of it as a form of education. In fact, although I do think it can be serious, I think most of the time it is fairly easy to remedy so it isn't my main concern with Kim et. al homeschooling.

eta: clicked submit before I was finished.

[Ramona]

Home educating parents spend a lot of time answering that question because it's generally the first thing out of someone's mouth when you mention that you homeschool.

I homeschooled for several years and I got so freaking tired of that damn question... especially because it often came from someone that I was chatting with while waiting for my daughter to finish her taekwondo lesson or while I had my kids and half the kids in the neighbourhood at the playground. :roll:

People also mix up "socializing" and "socialization" ~ the former being the playtime/hang out/etc, the latter being the way that a child learns how to function within a set society....

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think that the SOTDRT kind of homeschooling doesnt teach children about the real world.

Yes, you can homeschool and have a kid who is socialized and can function in the real world, as Ramona said, taking kids to the playground and letting them join clubs or sports will allow them to meet children outside of their family who are different to them.

But with fundies? Sure, they have friends, they have loads of siblings to talk to, and get together with like minded fundie families at church and ATI conferences...but theyre not prepared for the real world.

They are taught to be afraid of people who are different to them, so will be scared when they go out into the real world, like that teenage fundie girl who was on vacation and was scared to go into the stores because of the immodest clothing and music on in them, and in the end, wanted to stay in the hotel.

They arent going to know what to do when they get a job, and have to spend time with normal people. They will find it so hard to get on with their female boss, or their gay, atheist and Muslim co workers....or even how to get on with normal Christians who have interests which dont involve religion.

They are going to forever feel like they come from a different country, because they have no idea about American culture. They dont know about the various pop culture references, they dont know much about current events, they look different to everyone else in their frumpers. Ive actually heard former fundies talk about how for ages they did feel like they were raised in a different country and felt out of place, as they were so out of touch with everything that normal people do.

[Koala]

---> :ugeek: I also think this smiley looks like P.C. I know. I know. I can't help it.

:D

[indigospeakeasy]

I like Love Joy Feminism Blogger's answer to this question. She may have been socialized, but she was NOT prepared to deal with kids her own age (outside of her comfort zone). This is a real issue I see with former friends' children who still homeschool in the fundie world. (I am a former fundie lite, ex homeschooler). They are polite, talk well with adults and their own christian friends, but can't for the life of them mingle with non homeschoolers their own age. The fear of the world overwhelms them.

They may be in Karate, choir, and even dance, but you better believe they are in the homeschool karate class that takes place at 10 in the morning, the city choir that is 97% homeschool students OR the Christian Choir for Home school students or the dance class that meets at a church.

edited to add info.

[GeoBQn]

I've seen homeschooling parents on the 19K&C and large family FB page respond with, "Socialization is overrated." Not a good sign.

[FairyPrincessK]

I like Love Joy Feminism Blogger's answer to this question. She may have been socialized, but she was NOT prepared to deal with kids her own age (outside of her comfort zone). This is a real issue I see with former friends' children who still homeschool in the fundie world. (I am a former fundie lite, ex homeschooler). They are polite, talk well with adults and their own christian friends, but can't for the life of them mingle with non homeschoolers their own age. The fear of the world overwhelms them.

They may be in Karate, choir, and even dance, but you better believe they are in the homeschool karate class that takes place at 10 in the morning, the city choir that is 97% homeschool students OR the Christian Choir for Home school students or the dance class that meets at a church.

edited to add info.

I think that this is kind of what bothers me about Kim et al's response. It is as if they think that claiming they socialize their children is sufficient to wipe away the many different concerns raised about their style of homeschooling (which I wouldn't want to generalize to all homeschoolers by any means!)

[Jana814]

I've seen homeschooling parents on the 19K&C and large family FB page respond with, "Socialization is overrated." Not a good sign.

Agree!! That is not a good sign.

[duplessis3]

As someone who homeschooled (not fundie at all) and then didn't the weirdest thing was after we stopped homeschooling....we didn't have any homeschooling friends anymore. They literally stopped calling, inviting us places etc. I had to get a whole new set of people to hang around with. (FWIW, my kids made the transition quite easily and have done extremely well in bricks and mortar school.)

[Scribber]

I agree that the argument is quick to my mind because it's usually the first thing we're asked.

(I homeschool for a lot of reasons - and we aren't a religious family in any way, and definitely NOT fundie!) And like it's been said, I get asked WHILE at socialization things. We're leaving in 15 minutes to take my daughter to swimming lessons (our local YMCA offers homeschool lessons during the week, while all the other kids are in school. So rather than a group of 8? She's in a group of 4 who are all at the same level. It's great!) and then on to her twice weekly "P.E." class put on at a local dance school, again? For homeschool kids. We literally have some sort of group activity/class every day of the week. Yet, somehow? even my family is worried about her social interaction with other kids.

The SOTDRT/Fundie sort of homeschoolers? Those kids are wildly unprepared for the worlds - as their parents highest hopes are, that way they are more likely to follow in their footsteps.

But us "regular" homeschoolers? (The ones who have bad school districts, or special needs kids, or just a kid (like mine) who learns differently from the brick and mortar school kids? Or whatever other reason you have for homeschooling?) I've heard multiple university professors say they LOVE getting a homeschooled kid in their courses because the kids are typically self-motivated to learn, don't need their hands held, etc.

[Closed Womb]

I teach English at the University level.

Homeschooling can be a problem. Generally not in the academics*, but in interactions with others and especially with critical thinking skills (I suspect this applies primarily to the Christian-based homeschooling.)

That said, I don't ask students about their HS history. There certainly may be home schooled students who do not face the challenges that my self-identified students experience. I would never even know about it.

* We don't get many home schooled students, so it may be that the academics are a problem inasmuch as they cannot meet the requirements to get into school. From my very limited experiences with Community Colleges, it seems that they get far more home school students. The home schoolers there seem to have a more difficult time, often because of the diverse and often non-studious populations that CCs attract.

[emiliawasframed]

Agree!! That is not a good sign.

That statement also proves the inferiority of such an education. All people are socialized, even if all people do not regularly socialize with others outside of their immediate family. Socialization is the act of being exposed to the norms, values, and positive and negative sanctions of a given culture or subculture. Sorry, I teach SOC 101, so, kind of hard to turn that off. No way fundie curriculum would ever include legit SOC classes, though. All that cultural relativism and warning against ethnocentrism would NOT pass muster in some of the families we discuss.

[rezski44]

We have a couple of homeschooled kids in our ski patrol community and they are not the SOTDRT sort. One is now a junior ski instructor and another just became the youngest graduate of our Outdoor Emergency Care class. One is an only child and the other is in a 3 child family. They come from religious but not fundie families. Worldly would be putting it mildly for the eposure these kids get up at the mountain and they seem very well socialized. Their parents are all college educated and expect the same for the kids.

[crazyforkate]

There's homeschooling and there's homeschooling. A lot of fundies seem to homeschool in order to isolate and to keep their children in line. That, I think, is detrimental to development. A lot of people who homeschool for other reasons do just fine, because they want to involve their children in the world, while SOTDRT people seem to want to run away from it.

[snarkbillie]

I didn't mean to imply that lack of socialisation wasn't a problem, just that I think these moms seem to think that answering THIS complaint about homeschooling means that they've answered any and all legitimate critiques of it as a form of education. In fact, although I do think it can be serious, I think most of the time it is fairly easy to remedy so it isn't my main concern with Kim et. al homeschooling.

eta: clicked submit before I was finished.

As a secular homeschooler this is the ONLY thing people bring up when they start in questioning me about homeschooling. They do not seem to care about the academics or anything else besides "but are they socialized?! what's going to happen when they have to wake up and go to work?! will they even go to prom?!!!!????"

It's definitely a "complaint" that comes up every single time I utter the word "homeschooled" and from almost everyone that has a problem with homeschooling on any level.

[lilwriter85]

I've seen homeschooling parents on the 19K&C and large family FB page respond with, "Socialization is overrated." Not a good sign.

I remember seeing that there too. The Duggars are involved in a homeschooling group. They used to play bromball through that group. I think compared to the Maxwells, the Duggar kids do have more socialization skills. There are some fundie homeschooling families that don't allow their children to socialize that much.

[crazyforkate]

I've seen homeschooling parents on the 19K&C and large family FB page respond with, "Socialization is overrated." Not a good sign.

That is very, very scary.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I teach English at the University level.

Homeschooling can be a problem. Generally not in the academics*, but in interactions with others and especially with critical thinking skills (I suspect this applies primarily to the Christian-based homeschooling.)

That said, I don't ask students about their HS history. There certainly may be home schooled students who do not face the challenges that my self-identified students experience. I would never even know about it.

* We don't get many home schooled students, so it may be that the academics are a problem inasmuch as they cannot meet the requirements to get into school. From my very limited experiences with Community Colleges, it seems that they get far more home school students. The home schoolers there seem to have a more difficult time, often because of the diverse and often non-studious populations that CCs attract.

I know some people close to admissions at a Big! Ten! University! and the way they tell it, homeschoolers tend to split into two very different groups. Some homeschoolers are almost overprepared, they are good at self-motivated learning, have a solid content background, perhaps will have some social awkwardness but generally will do well. The other group is so woefully underprepared that they have no idea of just how unprepared they are, and will not make it past the first cut, if they even have the ability to apply at all.

Thing is, there are plenty of people in that latter group who still think of themselves as having gotten a "far better" education that the straw-men public school students they imagine. The problem is that more than just any "socialization," lots of those people never actually compare themselves to age peers, and so they honestly seem to have no idea of just what a "standard public school education" requires students to know. It is a rude awakening when they find out.

Aside from the actual planned and/or ideological content of the SOTDRT, where it seems the SOTDRT most often fails is that it doesn't stay rigorous. So many parents on fundie blogs talk about how their kids can learn from life, they will learn math from helping mom cook, they will build things in the yard with Dad, they will read "living books" for history, they will go on nature walks - they can do very little official "schooling" and still keep up, in the early elementary years.

Problem is, the whole "just learn by living" thing is much harder to do when you hit even upper elementary. Math isn't so obvious or used every day in the kitchen anymore once you start getting above the most simple of algebra, reading should be using longer texts and actually getting critical (I agree that getting critical is probably one skill actively omitted by most SOTDRT, also), science has to be about more than just looking at and naming plants.

Add to that, in so many SOTDRT households, Mom has had tons of kids after the first one, and so when the kids get to upper elementary, they end up being made to teach their siblings rather than continue their own studies. It's easier to teach a younger sibling phonics than to keep up with your own studies which now should be requiring quite a few hours in the day in addition to your household tasks (since you're not learning from your household tasks anymore). This is particularly true when no one is giving you direction anymore because hey, Mom is busy, and it's hard to learn chemistry out of a workbook only. Meanwhile there's plenty of praise for teaching the younger kids. The younger kids think you're so smart since wow, you can read, and Mom is thrilled to death that you're helping out. Compare that to hours of struggling over a difficult concept on your own, and yeah, is it any wonder which way that choice goes?

There are way too many blogs where the oldest kid hits around 12 or 13 and just kinda... stops making serious progress in school. What seemed awesome when that first kid was reading books at age 3 or whatever it is doesn't look so great anymore when all the "regular" kids have long since caught up and gone on further because they are forced to actually spend time on their OWN studies under the guidance of a real teacher.

Can mom be the real teacher, in a homeschool? Sure. There are plenty of success stories out there. But school has to be more of an "official thing" after about the 4th grade, whether you do it at home or not, and way too many SOTDRT parents are just too busy or hands off to follow through on that part.

The other big thing is deadlines. Learning to have responsibility and meet deadlines or suffer consequences if you can't meet them is important. It's best if the deadlines are from outsiders. It's easy enough to provide that though with a sports team or job of some sort - but many of the SOTDRT don't do those things, because they're specifically isolationist.

[silverspoons]

When I moved into my neighborhood 5 years ago there was one house where the lady would not answer her door & the yard was a bit run down comapred to the rest of the block. I guess Im odd but I did not want to buy my house before I met all my neighbors that lived in my cul-de-sac. She finally opened the door when I brought another neighbor with me. She was soft spoken lady, obviously very LDS lady so I felt okay. Later on I found out after her husband died she retreated inside her home. Over the years I saw her 3 older kids visit a few times a year. She left the house maybe once a month. I felt sad for her at first. Then I was watching the neighbors house next door and looked into her backyard and saw 2 girls, ages 11 and 16. I asked around to find out that they were her younger daughters that she home schools. In 5 years these girls had never come out front. I had never seen then ride in a car anywhere. I felt so sad. the mom was so scared without a father the girls would not be able to handle the big bad world. A few weks ago one of the cats got out and the older daughter came out front. A neighbor that knew her when she was younger approached her. It was like she had grown physically but not mentally. If I did not know her situation I would have thought she had a disability. It was so sad to see this 16 year old acting like she was 8-9ish. She was scared of being outside and ran back inside. Her mom was a college professor so Im sure she is qualified to teach but I feel this is abusive. Since then the bishop and other neighbors have tried to reach out but they won't answer the door.

Sometimes Ifeel like my kids are not learning much academically at school but I send them for the social aspects. Kids need to learn how to compromise and work with kids that have various backgrounds and learning abilites. They need to learn how to deal with the pressures of the world. My oldest has autism and when he was pre-k I was offered small clusters, full time aides, or homeschooling options. I am SO glad I made him push through all the obstacles, sometimes hard that came with being in a in a normal classroom. there were days I wanted to protect him in a nice safe homeschool enviroment. there were days I worried (but knew teachers were looking out for him). Now starting high school, you would be hard pressed to figure out which one he was. Straight A's, plays sports, works, & has a few close friends, & will be starting 3 college classes (at a real B&M next year) at 15 while going to high school. The main reason I feel he did so well was peer interaction. There were 2 students that really helped him with his social skills (peers help alot more then teachers sometimes). I hate when I hear Michelel Duggar say homeschooling is better for her adhd or learning challneged kids because I just do not see how it can be. these are the kids that need peers the most and need real life social situations to deal with or they will be at home forever (which I guess just might be these families goals?)

[GiggleOfGirls]

There's homeschooling and there's homeschooling. A lot of fundies seem to homeschool in order to isolate and to keep their children in line. That, I think, is detrimental to development. A lot of people who homeschool for other reasons do just fine, because they want to involve their children in the world, while SOTDRT people seem to want to run away from it.

Exactly. I think it's the mindset of the homeschooling family that really determines how well it will go. Any family that seeks to isolate their children from other viewpoints and beliefs is doing them a disservice. Homeschooling in that sort of environment just exacerbates what would've been a problem even if the children were attending public school.

My parents, even being fundie-lite, didn't seek to isolate me through homeschooling. I attended classes through the public school district and spent most of my time during high school out of the home with friends and other peers. I didn't do well in college, but that was due to factors that I don't believe had anything to do with having been schooled at home.

One of those factors was being immersed, for the first time in my life, in a fundie environment and seeing the rampant hypocrisy and lack of thought shown by the people at my very conservative college. It was difficult to deal with that sort of culture. I was a-okay with gay marriage, was just shy of being fine with women as 100% equals in church leadership, and was extremely socially libertarian by the end of high school and just being around people who regurgitated repressive sound bites and who apparently couldn't think critically for themselves was horrific and I left after 2 years of that nonsense.

Then I have friends whose families were also fundie-lite, but who sought to isolate them from outside ideas. Most of them didn't even go to any college and are still locked into the mindsets that they were raised with. They, like the students I encountered at my college, seem not to be able to think critically or examine ideas reasonably if the ideas go against what they were raised to believe.

In hindsight I should never have gone to a religious college, but I don't believe that my parents hindered me by homeschooling me.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Something else, too - lots of fundie homeschoolers in particular like to brag about how their kids don't understand pop culture references, or that their kids are more comfortable talking with adults rather than kids their own age. It's as if they're looking down their noses at "regular kids," that "regular kids" or the school kids don't have anything to offer their brilliant children who are socializing and learning from educated proper adults constantly, and of course socialization from educated proper adults is going to be "better" than hanging around with "fools" (in the Biblical sense, see Jonathan Lindvall and others) all day long. If their kids use archaic (ideally British) slang, so much the better. It's a worship of the quirky.

I went to public school in Japan, back when class sizes of 50 were not uncommon, and there "socialization" is specifically included in the goals of school. Yes, you're in a room of 50 other snot-nosed kids like yourself, EQUAL with them, and the whole IDEA is to get people able to behave in a group, to govern in a group, to make relationships with other people and learn all the things about group dynamics that are so important, how to vote, student council, how to lead, how to reciprocate, all this sort of thing, and in fact the teachers are often purposefully hands off about a lot of it, they want kids to learn to solve their problems on their own without constantly running to authority all the time.

I mean, you have plenty of time to be in more obvious hierarchical relationships (family, your teacher, etc etc) outside of the school day, but learning to live as a group is also very important.

I realize the US probably has some different ideas on just WHAT socialization of schoolkids should look like, but it HAS to be there, in some form. In the adult world, we're not always among a same-age cohort, granted, but we ARE very often in a largish group of people who are more or less the SAME status. How to negotiate in a group is an important skill, and yet it's one that the fundie homeschoolers (in particular, but not only them) tend to dismiss and look down on.

(Clearly if you do want to expose your kids this way, they can do it on a team or in clubs or whatever, it doesn't have to be the academic classroom.)

[BravaAmica]

Something else, too - lots of fundie homeschoolers in particular like to brag about how their kids don't understand pop culture references, or that their kids are more comfortable talking with adults rather than kids their own age. It's as if they're looking down their noses at "regular kids," that "regular kids" or the school kids don't have anything to offer their brilliant children who are socializing and learning from educated proper adults constantly, and of course socialization from educated proper adults is going to be "better" than hanging around with "fools" (in the Biblical sense, see Jonathan Lindvall and others) all day long. If their kids use archaic (ideally British) slang, so much the better. It's a worship of the quirky.

I've seen this with a friend who is homeschooling her kids. She thinks it's awesome that they don't relate to other [read] children. Like her oldest son not getting the Lego Ninjago references at a birthday party. He was quite upset, and felt very left out, but she thought it was going to bring him "closer to the Lord." And pretty much told him to stop crying about it, that he's so much better than the rest of the kids because he's not "worldly." Um, no, now the neighborhood kids know him as "that weird kid."

I realize the US probably has some different ideas on just WHAT socialization of schoolkids should look like, but it HAS to be there, in some form. In the adult world, we're not always among a same-age cohort, granted, but we ARE very often in a largish group of people who are more or less the SAME status. How to negotiate in a group is an important skill, and yet it's one that the fundie homeschoolers (in particular, but not only them) tend to dismiss and look down on.

Well, negotiation is not a skill a fundie would want their kids having. If you're negotiating, you're questioning authority and also thinking for yourself. I can see how a fundie would think a kid that negotiates is a kid that's disobedient.

[Convicted Blossom]

I often wonder about the Pleasant View Schoolhouse kids. http:// pleasantviewschoolhouse. blogspot.com

There is no doubt that fundie-lite Anna has schooled her children well, the older three were all accepted into prestigious universities and each seems to have almost over-achieved in their field of interest -- photography, orthinology, music. She has posted about the children's volunteering, meeting with friends, travelling.

Yet I have a sense of something not being quite right. The eldest daughter is not 18 yet, has been homeschooled and lived a sheltered life -- how can she be coping with the physical and emotional distance of university life?