No birth certificate?

[darareaksmey]

Wait. I could be really misinformed, but is it possible to be hired by any legit company in the US without a SSN? I mean, it may be your intention never to take a dime from the Social Security fund, but hasn't your employer the obligation upon hiring you to report that number to IRS or whomever? If I wanted to hire someone and they said, gee, I don't have an SSN (or other ID# legally provided to noncitizens who have appropriate work status), but it's OK because I never plan to get a SS check--I just wouldn't hire them. I wouldn't want myself and my company to get caught up in some screwy, possibly illegal, end run around a government program, even if the program is voluntary for the employee. I think I'd need a filing cabinet to contain all the waivers and hold-harmlesses and such I'd make that person sign.

[dawbs]

Wait. I could be really misinformed, but is it possible to be hired by any legit company in the US without a SSN? I mean, it may be your intention never to take a dime from the Social Security fund, but hasn't your employer the obligation upon hiring you to report that number to IRS or whomever? If I wanted to hire someone and they said, gee, I don't have an SSN (or other ID# legally provided to noncitizens who have appropriate work status), but it's OK because I never plan to get a SS check--I just wouldn't hire them. I wouldn't want myself and my company to get caught up in some screwy, possibly illegal, end run around a government program, even if the program is voluntary for the employee. I think I'd need a filing cabinet to contain all the waivers and hold-harmlesses and such I'd make that person sign.

sadly enough, this was the reason my then-friend refused to GET one.

(because "our government is trying to make it impossible to buy/sell/trade without one"--reading bewteen the fundie lines, she was sure they were/were becoming/something "the mark of the beast")

[darareaksmey]

Just a side note on birth certificates. I was adopted by a step-parent following my mother's remarriage after the death of my father. I was reissued a new birth certificate and my original records were "sealed." It is impossible for me to get a birth certificate with my birth father's name listed. So, I have always felt that my bc is basically false, kwim? My dh was from another country, naturalized. I have never seen a copy of his birth certificate--only his naturalization papers. You've piqued my curiosity as to what happened to his bc. I don't think I can even get a copy from his home country!!! Maybe one of the kids could--think I'll check.

What did he use to naturalize if he didn't have a BC? Back when I used to work with foreign nationals, I had such nightmares helping people immigrate who hadn't any birth records. One poor woman from Vietnam spent ages going from village to village looking for an elderly relative who could fill out a form to verify the best info she could cobble together about her birth. Plus, in some cultures, at least as late as the early 90's, it wasn't uncommon for a birth to go unrecorded altogether. When those people wanted to come to the US, they had to do the best they could to put together something INS/State would accept as a valid birth record. They couldn't just go look in mom's or dad's lockbox for it and make a copy.

These fundies don't know how good they have it. Choosing whether or not to provide your kids appropriate ID is a first-world problem. Persecution, my ass.

[darareaksmey]

sadly enough, this was the reason my then-friend refused to GET one.

(because "our government is trying to make it impossible to buy/sell/trade without one"--reading bewteen the fundie lines, she was sure they were/were becoming/something "the mark of the beast")

Srsly? :roll: Do they not have Bibles, and can they not get the part about rendering under Caesar and god? Jesus EXPECTED we'd have earthly government that had requirements for us, and was cool with that.

Oh well, I guess I wouldn't have to worry about any fundies in my business, because I just damned wouldn't hire them if they are that paranoid. :D

[hoipolloi]

Michael Pearl is against marriage certificates as well (nogreaterjoy.org/articles/the-wedding/):

None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever—until death. So when the sodomites have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts. And, while I am on the subject, there will come a time when faithful Christians will either revoke their state marriage licenses and establish an exclusively one man-one woman covenant of marriage, or, they will forfeit the sanctity of their covenant by being unequally yoked together with perverts. The sooner there is such a movement, the sooner we will have a voice in government. Some of you attorneys and statesmen reading this should get together and come up with an approach that will have credibility and help to impact the political process. Please contact me when you do and I will assist with publicity.

[treehugger]

sadly enough, this was the reason my then-friend refused to GET one.

(because "our government is trying to make it impossible to buy/sell/trade without one"--reading bewteen the fundie lines, she was sure they were/were becoming/something "the mark of the beast")

If she thought SSN sounded bad she should try living in Canada. We don't have Social Security but instead we have a Social Insurance Number. My husband's uber conservative Grandmother was horrified that everyone had to have a SIN number :lol:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

What did he use to naturalize if he didn't have a BC?

Whatever the ultimate ID is in his country of origin, I presume (if he was properly registered there and "normal" class etc). It's not a BC everywhere, but there's SOMETHING.

If you naturalize then your naturalization paper (or a passport you then get) works. Personally I have a passport that I never let expire, it and various other legal papers related to my life are in a safe, also photocopies are elsewhere (once you're in the system, if you have your number they can look you up too, so yeah, when you travel, also write your passport number down in some other papers with you in case your purse is stolen). Anyone wants proof of citizenship, they get the passport. Even places asking for "birth certificate" I've never had a problem showing the passport, because what they really want is proof of citizenship.

It used to be common for kids to not have SSN because you didn't really need it until you got your first job, so teenagers would go down to apply for the SSN (with birth certs or passports), it was sort of a rite of passage.

The US is a strange country in some ways, it seems all the time the authorities want to be strict strict strict about "illegal immigration" and proof of citizenship and all that, but at the same time resistant to the idea of citizens all carrying some sort of national ID card. Of course that just means that there are silly fights over non-citizens getting driver's licenses and the rest, because other explicitly not designed for that other cards are being forced into supposedly proving citizenship for all kinds of reasons. If they want to get serious they can require everyone to get a passport and be done with it (but I'm sure the fundies would scream). As it is, of course, we get racial profiling all over the place. Look "foreign"? Show some ID, baby.

Off the record births can be a real problem. A similar problem has happened in Japan, where the family registry is the big deal (you have a baby, it gets put on a family registry). Under the law previously, babies born within 300 days after a divorce were forced to go on the former husband's family registry, even if everyone knew the baby's genetic father is not him. (This has been changed.) So many women in that situation didn't register their babies anywhere, and so they grew up without the magic "family registry" and can't do all kinds of necessary things (where you either need a family registry or else a foreign resident identification card, one or the other) and it's become a legal hassle as they grew up and are now adults. Of course this points out some of the many many issues with making the family the basic unit of registry, which is another fundie pipe dream in the US that hopefully doesn't ever happen...

As for the fundie kids without birth certificates or any other ID, I suppose if they can get their parents (who have ID for the most part, because of course most of this craziness is NEW) to swear that the kid is theirs, they can fix it? But if a kid has run away on bad terms... yeah, has to suck.

[pomology]

I definitely thought that this was gonna be about birthers. I'm kind of relieved it isn't. Still fucked up, though. I can't imagine being a functioning adult without a state issued ID (I.e. a drivers license or a non drivers i.d issued by the DMV. Or at least a fucking passport.) and you pretty much need a birth certificate and/or an ssn card to acquire one. Basically, the process of establishing your identity which is necessary for many if not most facets of adult life is impossible without those things. And it's cruel and fucked up to prevent your children from having it.

[Miss M]

I have been on that forum for years, well not so much anymore, posting wise at least since I was banned. But the poster in that thread, Forerunner, none of his kids have SSN or birth certificates, he and his "wife" surrendered their SSN and drivers licenses back to the state. His mode of transport is a tractor or bumming rides off others, his "wife" was taken to the hospital for the birth of their daughter by his parents, he refused to go with her!!

He refuses to burden his children with the "Mark of the Beast".

Miss M.

[Jinger Jar]

Choosing not to document their children is a form of neglect in my book. It's akin to not teaching their kids to be literate or numerate. It's deliberately setting them up for unnecessary struggle, marginalization, and exploitation when they grow up.

It's not as if these parents don't know any better. I bet that the majority of them have birth certificates and SSNs. Without some kind of government issued ID, how were they able to acquire the home they're living in or the land it's sitting on? How are they able to have utilities run to their homes? Those who are able to get on the Internet from their homes had to show some kind of identification and proof a credit history. ISPs and other utility providers don't just go on your word that you are who you say you are with a verbal promise to make monthly payments. So if they're able to benefit from participation in wider society, how can it be anything but neglect to keep their kids from enjoying the same thing?

[happy atheist]

I have been on that forum for years, well not so much anymore, posting wise at least since I was banned. But the poster in that thread, Forerunner, none of his kids have SSN or birth certificates, he and his "wife" surrendered their SSN and drivers licenses back to the state. His mode of transport is a tractor or bumming rides off others, his "wife" was taken to the hospital for the birth of their daughter by his parents, he refused to go with her!!

He refuses to burden his children with the "Mark of the Beast".

Miss M.

His posts read like the ramblings of an insane person. How do you surrender your SSN? You could stop using it and refuse to tell anyone what it is, but how would you "surrender" it? And is surrendering your drivers license anything more involved than not renewing it?

He makes so many vague statements, with no facts or details.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I definitely thought that this was gonna be about birthers. I'm kind of relieved it isn't. Still fucked up, though. I can't imagine being a functioning adult without a state issued ID (I.e. a drivers license or a non drivers i.d issued by the DMV. Or at least a fucking passport.) and you pretty much need a birth certificate and/or an ssn card to acquire one. Basically, the process of establishing your identity which is necessary for many if not most facets of adult life is impossible without those things. And it's cruel and fucked up to prevent your children from having it.

Yeah, I don't drive, so I don't have a driver's license. I do have a passport, which works FINE for anywhere that asks for a "birth certificate" or just generic "ID," but where I had trouble was... BARS. So many of the staff at bars are fixated on the "driver's license!!!" thing that they get deer in the headlights over a passport, so I finally (years and years ago now) just caved and paid to get a state ID card (identical to the driver's license except a different color border and "ID CARD" instead of "DRIVER LICENSE" at the top). Also on the back in big letters it says "For Identification Purposes Only Not a License to Drive" but... it's got the familiar form factor and so is well worth it.

Plus it means I can leave my passport at home in the safe.

I'm with you though, I can't imagine not having enough legal papers (even if it's in some crazy format or foreign and needs lawyers involved or is in the form of legal decrees or whatEVER it is) to get that magical passport ONCE, so that can be my magical ultimate ID. These kids who are never registered anywhere don't have that, and while that might be fine down on the farm homeschooling with Mom and Dad, once they grow up and need to interact with the world it's gonna be painful. Putting your kids through that is just cruel.

Anyone know what the limit is on registering a new baby? A month, or what?

[Coconut Flan]

It would be according to state law. In Cali it's 10 days and an unattended home birth requires an appointment attended by mother, baby, and a witness plus proving things like identity of mom and proof of pregnancy. There is a small fine for not showing up by 10 days.

[darareaksmey]

I don't think the SSA has a published time limit. But the smart thing is to get it right away. For one thing, if you apply for it at the same time as the birth certificate, the same info can be transmitted by the hospital to both places at once. It is more involved if you have to go later to the SSA office (not to mention you may be a new parent encumbered by a wailing infant). Plus, if you wait, you tend to forget, and the next thing you know it's tax time, and you can't claim your kid as a dependent if he/she hasn't a number.

I didn't get mine till I was about 14, but we applied for our children's as soon as humanly possible.

[pixydust]

His posts read like the ramblings of an insane person. How do you surrender your SSN? You could stop using it and refuse to tell anyone what it is, but how would you "surrender" it? And is surrendering your drivers license anything more involved than not renewing it?

He makes so many vague statements, with no facts or details.

To surender your DL you take it to the DMV and give it to them, i'm sure that you have to sign something to say that you no longer have the privilege to drive...I don't know if you can do that with your SS card.

[Coconut Flan]

I don't think the SSA would take the card back. Although maybe a clerk would if the person became really obnoxious because it really makes no difference. They'd still have all the records.

[pixydust]

I don't think the SSA would take the card back. Although maybe a clerk would if the person became really obnoxious because it really makes no difference. They'd still have all the records.

True, your number still exists and is linked to you forever, no matter what the paranoid would like.

[pomology]

Haha, yep, I had one of those IDs until I got a drivers license in September. I got it (my non dl id) before I was 21, so I didn't have to worry about bars. I got it because once I left my passport in my safe at school when I had to go on a (domestic) flight. So that I didn't miss my flight, tsa let me use my school ID, but I got an ID card before the flight back.

[desertvixen]

The US is a strange country in some ways, it seems all the time the authorities want to be strict strict strict about "illegal immigration" and proof of citizenship and all that, but at the same time resistant to the idea of citizens all carrying some sort of national ID card.

This. It is crazy.

[countressrascal]

Thier children must not have been delivered by a licensed midwife, because they must register the birth within 5 business days of the birth or be fined. If it happens too many time they can lose their license, State of AZ.

I call Micheal Pearl on his BS, first off you can not open a bank account without a SS or TNI, it is a federal law. Also it is illegal for an employer to hire someone without a SS and they must collect and pay SS, unless they have an Exemption from the government and at that time both the employer and emplyee must sign the form, stating that they are not paying SS and employee is not paying also and the reason. Then it has to filed with feds. If they reject the form because of the reason you as an employer have to pay the back taxes for both you and the employee.

I can't see the fundies not getting their special snowflakes SS without them they can't claim them on their Income Tax and get their big refund for breeding. Even the FLDS have SS for all their kids, they make a big deal if you don't complete the paperwork when you do the BC. I bet all these people do not file taxes and are afraid if they get their special snowflakes SS that the IRS will find them and make them pay back taxes. You can avoid the government all you want however at some point in time they will find you and you will have to pay the piper.

All I can say with all these wackadoodles out there I can't believe there is not a shortage of aluminum foil.

I pity the kids, another way to control them.

[sewingmom2]

Thier children must not have been delivered by a licensed midwife, because they must register the birth within 5 business days of the birth or be fined. If it happens too many time they can lose their license, State of AZ.

I call Micheal Pearl on his BS, first off you can not open a bank account without a SS or TNI, it is a federal law. Also it is illegal for an employer to hire someone without a SS and they must collect and pay SS, unless they have an Exemption from the government and at that time both the employer and emplyee must sign the form, stating that they are not paying SS and employee is not paying also and the reason. Then it has to filed with feds. If they reject the form because of the reason you as an employer have to pay the back taxes for both you and the employee.

I can't see the fundies not getting their special snowflakes SS without them they can't claim them on their Income Tax and get their big refund for breeding. Even the FLDS have SS for all their kids, they make a big deal if you don't complete the paperwork when you do the BC. I bet all these people do not file taxes and are afraid if they get their special snowflakes SS that the IRS will find them and make them pay back taxes. You can avoid the government all you want however at some point in time they will find you and you will have to pay the piper.

All I can say with all these wackadoodles out there I can't believe there is not a shortage of aluminum foil.

I pity the kids, another way to control them.

Unless their income is very, very high, big families pay no income taxes. With the child tax credit at $1000 per child under age 17, and the standard deduction for each child approaching $4000. do the math. A family with 13 kids, even if the kids are over 18 and as long as the kids earn less than around $4000 per year, can earn up to $70,000 and everything is exempt. The income over that would be subject to tax, but the CTC for minor children would wipe out quite a bit of tax. And I'm rounding a bit--don't have a calculator on me.

[JMarie]

To surender your DL you take it to the DMV and give it to them, i'm sure that you have to sign something to say that you no longer have the privilege to drive...I don't know if you can do that with your SS card.

Maybe they just burned them in the BBQ grill in some faux-official ceremony?

[RachelB]

Choosing not to document their children is a form of neglect in my book. It's akin to not teaching their kids to be literate or numerate. It's deliberately setting them up for unnecessary struggle, marginalization, and exploitation when they grow up.

It's not as if these parents don't know any better. I bet that the majority of them have birth certificates and SSNs. Without some kind of government issued ID, how were they able to acquire the home they're living in or the land it's sitting on? How are they able to have utilities run to their homes? Those who are able to get on the Internet from their homes had to show some kind of identification and proof a credit history. ISPs and other utility providers don't just go on your word that you are who you say you are with a verbal promise to make monthly payments. So if they're able to benefit from participation in wider society, how can it be anything but neglect to keep their kids from enjoying the same thing?

I think they (very short-sightedly) don't imagine that there is any benefit to participating in wider society. They're basically making a set of extremely important decisions, with foreseeable long-term ramifications, "on behalf of" their children-- decisions that foreclose a lot of options for those children and that will make it harder to leave fundie-land. Obviously, parents can't ask someone who hasn't learned to talk yet, let alone reason through complicated problems, "Do you want to live in this cult with Mommy and Daddy for the rest of your life?," and expect to get a meaningful answer.

I'm just going to get myself wound up if I think about this further, but it seems to me like a fucking affront against free will.

[SoybeanQueen]

My nephew was born after 9/11, and he came so quickly that he was born in their car, before his dad even had time to pull over. As I recall, it took nearly a year for them to get a birth certificate, and it was a huge hassle, because the only witnesses were the parents and a sister who was maybe 4 years old. I told my husband that he should flag down a witness if we weren't going to make it to the birth center with my last baby!

[DarkAnts]

Its one thing to not get a SSC. Its quite another to not get a birth certificate for your child. The child can apply for an SSC when they are adults. Its their choice to get it at that point. I would hope that the adult would have all the correct information when making the decision to get it or not get it.