No birth certificate?

[Wolfie]

homesteadingtoday.com/specialty-forums/survival-emergency-preparedness/471052-ssn-birth-cert.html

OP has a friend who didn't get their homebirthed children, born in multiple states, birth certificates, now the kids are hitting their teens and can't get driver's liscenses, ect...

[doggie]

We will see more of this.

[emmiedahl]

So much misinformation.

Many cite the ability of the Amish to survive without birth certificates and SSNs, but from a quick google it appears that Amish do get bcs and only the most conservative do not get SSNs.

[Witsec7]

I've heard this called keeping gray. Kinda like what I do on the internet but in the RW. It's horrid when the kids attempt to leave their parents lifestyle and are hindered by lack of birth certificates and SS numbers. Quite a few of the uber fundy preppers feel it's a big gold star when they leave a child's birth unrecorded.

[hoipolloi]

Michael Pearl once told his leg humpers that SSNs aren't needed (nogreaterjoy.org/wordpress/f/200002_March-April.pdf):

When Deb and I first began to have children, we decided not to force them to participate in the social security system—a voluntary tax. We have trusted God for our security in all areas and do not look to the Federal Government for our medical, housing, retirement, or otherwise. The government gives all citizens the option to not participate, and we chose that option within the bounds of the law. My children are grown and have survived without it. They have gone to college, gotten a passport, traveled overseas, worked, maintained a bank account, and held a driver’s license without any problem. If your children do not have a social security number and your state will not give them a license without one, then go to the social security office and request a paper stating that due to religious convictions, John Doe does not have a social security number. Present that paper where a number is required and there should be no problem. In most cases everyone is ignorant of the law and will try to intimidate you into compliance. Stand your ground and trust in God. He will supply all your need. We are not tax protesters. We pay all taxes that are levied. We just choose not to volunteer any more than is required.

N.B. - he wrote this before 9-11.

[tankgirl]

That was a creepy read. I feel so bad for those kids growing up with paranoid fundie parents, who have unrealistic ideas, that will keep them from living in the real world, just sad.

[ILoveJellybeans]

What? These people are incredibly paranoid! Exactly what could happen by registering the child's birth? The government isnt out to kill people, and most of the things they do are done for a reason-how do we know that the family hasnt kidnapped the children and used religious reasons for not having a birth certificate? If they beat their children to death with fundie child training tactics, how would anyone ever know, and if a body is found, they wouldnt be able to identify it? How do we know that people came to the country legally or were born here without any identification? Their child will likely have the same sort of life as an illegal immigrant as theres no record of them being born here.

Their child is going to have such a poor quality of life because of their paranoid parents.

[E Street Fan]

It would be super duper funny if one of the un-papered people decided to run for president one day. Payback! :lol:

[Widget]

They are in a worse position than an illegal immigrant. The DREAM act or other similar legislation can't even help these kids because they are usually SOTDRT educated and there are literally no records of them until they are adults and try to break free.

[SayNoToMullets]

Interesting, just about everything I've done in my adult life requires a birth certificate and/or SSN. Most jobs, except for one where I was paid under the table, required a birth certificate (I can think of at least two times that my mom has had to overnight me a copy - I now keep two copies in a location even I can remember). SSN is standard on every application for work, school, financial aid, everything. Kind of like the line in Reality Bites where Janeane Garofalo says that the only thing she learned in college was her SSN.

[Fundie Lite]

We have some friends that won't get SSNs for their kids and they are unable to get them health insurance because of it.

[singsingsing]

Wow, what an awful idea. People who are this paranoid about the government never fail to amaze me. It's like they're living in a fantasy world. They think they're sticking it to the big bad evil government, but the only ones they end up hurting are their children.

Just as an aside, my grandpa was adopted from an orphanage in Quebec in the early '40s. Needless to say there was no proper documentation. Nevertheless he managed to get a birth certificate, driver's licence, etc. But when he wanted to apply for a passport in his 60s, he had to get a new birth certificate from the government of Quebec. When he applied, they searched for him in their records and then told him that he didn't exist. He did manage to get a passport (and convince the government that he was real) but it was a nightmare.

[Witsec7]

One of the wingnuts on that forum also said you don't need a DL to legally drive a car. None of it is surprising to me, I used to read there quite a bit and on Gabe Anast's Exodus, pages before they went dark.

I have hippy friends who cross over into that level of govt. paranoia. They built an illegal pond on their property and a house for their DD. Their theory is they own the dirt they can do what they want with it. Unfortunately someone turned them in on the residence and the pooch is screwed.

FWIW my mother didn't have a birth cert. She had baptismal records and that was good enough for her to get an SS, but that was in the 1920's. A lot has changed since then.

[Beammeup]

Doesn't Pearl also preach that people shouldn't get marriage licenses?

[dawbs]

I had a friend (long since out of touch) who was home-birthed then home-schooled and w/o a certificate.

She couldn't get paid job at a very conservative place that should know how to handle this (< vague because if I explain it, it ids me, sorry) because of the number of home-school-fundies they deal w/.

I still have no idea what she expected to accomplish by staying off the grid.

[Wolfie]

FWIW my mother didn't have a birth cert. She had baptismal records and that was good enough for her to get an SS, but that was in the 1920's. A lot has changed since then.

Yeah, the last person I know who was able to get into school/ss/ect with a baptismal certificate would be in their late 40's now. Of course she also was baptised in the time period when a priest would change your name if he didn't like it, so it wasn't her "real" name on the stuff.

Yeah, this type people exist in my county, it's insane, except here it's the hippies, not the other extreme of government paranoia.

[sewingmom2]

It would be interesting to see if the parents file income taxes or not. The kids have to have SS numbers (or ITINs) to be claimed as dependents. However, it is possible for US taxpayers to claim Mexican or Canadian citizens as dependents, even if the dependents have never stepped foot into the US. The taxpayers have to be providing support and the dependent's income has to be below a certain level. Of course, the Mexican/Canadian citizens would not have SS numbers. They need ITINs or they have to fill out a form and attach it to the tax return.

When the government is "merciful" to illegals and citizens of other countries, I'm guessing it will be merciful to kids whose parents kept them off the grid. I'm thinking they will be able to get SS numbers, birth certificates, etc. when they turn 18--if there's no money, they should start with Legal Aid and go from there.

[Black Aliss]

Michael Pearl once told his leg humpers that SSNs aren't needed (nogreaterjoy.org/wordpress/f/200002_March-April.pdf):

The claim is that this will keep the ebil gummint from getting all up in your bidness--can't track you, can't make you go fight their wars, and so on. But, really, it's just a way to guarantee that your kids can never leave.

[Witsec7]

Yeah, the last person I know who was able to get into school/ss/ect with a baptismal certificate would be in their mid 40's now. Of course she also was baptised in the time period when a priest would change your name if he didn't like it, so it wasn't her "real" name on the stuff.

Yeah, this type people exist in my county, it's insane, except here it's the hippies, not the other extreme of government paranoia.

My mother was born on a ship coming to America, she entered the country under a dead infants name since Grandma only had the money to enter with one child. Consequently she couldn't even use her parents immigration records.

Certainly, post 9/11 I'm sure the net has gotten tighter. I have read on other forums that post 9/11 undocumented US births require attendees to the birth to verify it. Regarding the post on the linked forum, they had moved and had lost contact with the midwives.

I know that locally our legal aid does not handle citizenship cases.

[sewingmom2]

Yeah, Legal Aid won't handle citizenship cases, but the American born w/o birth certificates ARE citizens. I just called and ours will handle getting birth certificates for those born here. The lady sighed, though, so I'm sure she considers it an unnecessary situation. I concur.

[Witsec7]

Yeah, Legal Aid won't handle citizenship cases, but the American born w/o birth certificates ARE citizens. I just called and ours will handle getting birth certificates for those born here. The lady sighed, though, so I'm sure she considers it an unnecessary situation. I concur.

It varies from locality to locality.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I don't have much experience with these types of forums, and good golly these people are nucking futs! Your child will be GLAD and they will thank you later?! Ummm sure, only if they end up as crazy as their parents.

I live in the same county where I was born, and I was annoyed as hell when I lost my driver's license and couldn't find my BC. I had to take my mom to the county building to get the damn BC (after first going alone, not realizing I couldn't get it without ID - it's a vicious circle!), and take it with all of the other million things to the DMV. I caught enough flak using the temporary paper ID I was issued to fly 2 days later. It wasn't as bad in my state, but leaving La Guardia was not remotely fun. If I hadn't brought along a copy of my BC and marriage license to go with the temp ID, I'm not sure they would have let me on the damn plane. This is my long-winded way of saying I would be beyond pissed if my parents were crazy nutjobs who didn't care enough to let ME decide how I want to live. It's a gigantic PITA at times even when you are very much on the grid.

[August]

This is one of those things that sounds like NBD only because they've never done it themselves. I sit here with my credit history, a driver's license, passport, birth certificate, connected gas, power, phone, rental history, employment history and a cash cushion and think "eh, why is it such a big deal to ned ID to vote?". In 18 years time I don't know if my birth attendant will still be alive. If we home schooled and home churched there would be no baptismal records. If we didn't do well baby care there would be no medical records. Even if you have all that, anyone who's ever been to the DMV should understand you don't want to make things complicated!

And it's white priviledge. I would not like to be a freebirthed unschooled home churched 18 year old called Jose Perez who lives in Las Cruces trying to get my birth retroactively registered.

[greek_chorus]

Even if Michael Pearl doesn't think SSNs are necessary, he doesn't say anything in that post about not getting a birth certificate. I think it's insane not to get a SSN, it's not a tax unless you earn income; but not getting a birth certificate should be criminal. Those poor kids. I guess the good news we can take from all of this is that thanks to all the the hard work on the part of the Republicans, at least the children of these crazy whack jobs won't be able to vote. Good grief...

[sewingmom2]

Just a side note on birth certificates. I was adopted by a step-parent following my mother's remarriage after the death of my father. I was reissued a new birth certificate and my original records were "sealed." It is impossible for me to get a birth certificate with my birth father's name listed. So, I have always felt that my bc is basically false, kwim? My dh was from another country, naturalized. I have never seen a copy of his birth certificate--only his naturalization papers. You've piqued my curiosity as to what happened to his bc. I don't think I can even get a copy from his home country!!! Maybe one of the kids could--think I'll check.