I'm bitter, I admit it. - Infertility

[valsa]

I fail to see how a natural biological process can be empowering. Some women's bodies are capable or conceiving, carrying a child to term and giving birth without assistance. If so, they are biologically very lucky. You don't get a fucking merit badge for it.

I can understand (as someone who's never gone through pregnancy and childbirth) why some people might want it to be empowering. Childbirth can be scary as fuck. And while you do (usually) have a baby at the end of the process, the anxiety of some women isn't decreased by the thought of "Okay, let me just get through this lengthy, horrible, painful, embarrassing process and I'll have my baby". For some women, making the process itself an empowering ordeal helps them feel more like they're in control of what's happening (and natural vs. hospital birth can be part of that), instead of it controlling them, and that can help ease fear and anxiety.

However, as with any self-help mechanism, there are always those who take it too far. Some women, instead of using the "empowering natural birth" mechanism to help get them through the trauma of childbirth and to the ultimate prize (the baby), they make the natural birth experience itself the prize instead. To the point where some women who've had babies die (from, iirc, complications that wouldn't have killed them in a hospital) have said they wouldn't change their homebirth experience at all because they finally got the birth experience they wanted. Even though it ended in a dead baby. Which is exactly as insane as it sounds.

[Palimpsest]

MJB, you areunderstandably bitter. Infertility sucks, and it is annoying to see people taking risks.

I know I am in the minority, but the whole idea of a birth experience is such a middle-upper class first world problem.

When I was in Tanzania this year I toured a clinic and halfway house for women recovering from surgery to repair obstetric fistula. These women would have traded their home birth experience for a live baby and you know not leaking feces and urine. Some women had lived with it for a decade.

It was profound and humbling.

-Kelly.

Yes. The fistula girls (I say girls because many of them are young teens) just break your heart. The baby does not survive and the injuries to the mother are awful. Many are thrown out by their husbands, family and communities because "leaking shit and piss" makes them pariahs. For the few that can make the long journey to clinics that are able to help them, surgical intervention often helps, but some do still require long-term care because their injuries are so severe.

Ethiopia, not Tanzania, but I have been a long time supporter of this organization: http://www.hamlinfistula.org. There is a lot of good information on the site about obstetric fistula. The hospital was one of the first to specialize in fistula treatment and is a leader in the field.

[PennySycamore]

I can understand (as someone who's never gone through pregnancy and childbirth) why some people might want it to be empowering. Childbirth can be scary as fuck. And while you do (usually) have a baby at the end of the process, the anxiety of some women isn't decreased by the thought of "Okay, let me just get through this lengthy, horrible, painful, embarrassing process and I'll have my baby". For some women, making the process itself an empowering ordeal helps them feel more like they're in control of what's happening (and natural vs. hospital birth can be part of that), instead of it controlling them, and that can help ease fear and anxiety.

However, as with any self-help mechanism, there are always those who take it too far. Some women, instead of using the "empowering natural birth" mechanism to help get them through the trauma of childbirth and to the ultimate prize (the baby), they make the natural birth experience itself the prize instead. To the point where some women who've had babies die (from, iirc, complications that wouldn't have killed them in a hospital) have said they wouldn't change their homebirth experience at all because they finally got the birth experience they wanted. Even though it ended in a dead baby. Which is exactly as insane as it sounds.

THIS!

[treemom]

MJB, you areunderstandably bitter. Infertility sucks, and it is annoying to see people taking risks.

Yes. The fistula girls (I say girls because many of them are young teens) just break your heart. The baby does not survive and the injuries to the mother are awful. Many are thrown out by their husbands, family and communities because "leaking shit and piss" makes them pariahs. For the few that can make the long journey to clinics that are able to help them, surgical intervention often helps, but some do still require long-term care because their injuries are so severe.

Ethiopia, not Tanzania, but I have been a long time supporter of http://www.hamlinfistula.org. There is a lot of good information on this site about obstetric fistula.

The hamlin hospital is amazing. She is truly doing amazing work.

i was incredibly humbled to have the experience in TZ. And it sits at the back of my head every time I hear about interventions and "defensive medicine" being the devil.

[Turtle]

I can understand (as someone who's never gone through pregnancy and childbirth) why some people might want it to be empowering. Childbirth can be scary as fuck. And while you do (usually) have a baby at the end of the process, the anxiety of some women isn't decreased by the thought of "Okay, let me just get through this lengthy, horrible, painful, embarrassing process and I'll have my baby". For some women, making the process itself an empowering ordeal helps them feel more like they're in control of what's happening (and natural vs. hospital birth can be part of that), instead of it controlling them, and that can help ease fear and anxiety.

However, as with any self-help mechanism, there are always those who take it too far. Some women, instead of using the "empowering natural birth" mechanism to help get them through the trauma of childbirth and to the ultimate prize (the baby), they make the natural birth experience itself the prize instead. To the point where some women who've had babies die (from, iirc, complications that wouldn't have killed them in a hospital) have said they wouldn't change their homebirth experience at all because they finally got the birth experience they wanted. Even though it ended in a dead baby. Which is exactly as insane as it sounds.

I see how it becomes a mechanism to cope. But, in reality, it is a biological process that's out of our control. Sure, we can do things like exercise and eat right that might help but can't hurt. But it's still not a process that we can control. Women's bodies have given birth while in a coma and others do everything they are told yet would die without intervention.

Claiming that it is empowering is damaging, IMO. It gives a false sense of control and it hurts women who feel like failures over something they can't control.

[infooverload]

Has anyone listened to the last episode of the Reality Cast Podcast with Amanda Morcott and the guest she had on. Her guest was discussing home births and lay midwives and death rates. If you haven't had a chance to listen to it I hightly recommend the episode and the podcast. :D

[meda]

I agree with Treemom that wanting a particular "birth experience" is a first world issue. I am rather extreme in my disgust for the "trust your body", natural is best crowd, and that is because of my experience with infertility. I am currently pregnant. You know how I got pregnant? With the help of a very competent doctor who took the time to test my partner and I to find out what was actually happening with our bodies, was respectful of how we wished to proceed with fertility treatments, and prescribed the right combination of meds that helped me ovulate and produce better quality eggs.

You know what didn't get me pregnant? Relaxing, eating goat's milk yogurt, praying to Jesus/Buddha/Freya, yoga, meditation, and all the other woo that smug people with no fertility issues have been preaching to me for 4 years. If I am lucky enough to give birth, it will be in a hospital with a NICU, my competent obgyn, and an assortment of trained professionals who know what to do when shit goes south. That will be empowering for me, because trusting my body means understanding what my body needs help with.

Now having said that, I think that some medical staff are jerks, and some medical procedures suck. However, part of solving that is being an advocate for yourself, or finding someone who will be your advocate. I think sometimes women patients try to be nice and accommodating to a fault, and think that entitles them to a doctor and nursing staff who can read the patient's mind and intuitively know what is and is not ok with the patient. I don't think that's how it should work. A patient is entitled to the best medical care and professional judgement possible. That is not always "empowering" sometimes it means emergency surgery so you or the baby don't die.

[Lady_M]

This attaching of moral aspects to bodily functions is very disturbing. Many people believe that your brain is the ultimate master of your body, and if you just *thought* and *did* everything right, you will live happily ever after.

I have high blood pressure. Had it since I was a healthy-weight, non-smoker, semi-fit 23 year old. I have friends who are convinced that if I only relaxed/ate right/lost weight/exercised more/did a different kind of exercise/changed my diet, my bp would go back to normal. Some people have a very hard time accepting the fact that sometimes our bodies do weird and unpleasant things and no amount of morality or willpower can change that. I guess blaming others for their ailments is a nice way for people to mystically believe $hit will not happen to *them*, because their situation is, obviously, completely different and sick people somehow brought this upon themselves.

MamaJunebug, I'm sorry that you and your children are going through this. My heart goes out to you.

AuntCloud, I think your comment about how people sort of have this way of attaching moral aspects to illness is so spot on.

I have polycystic ovary syndrome, a hormonal/endocrine condition, that, among its less pleasant manifestations has rendered me infertile. At this point, I've failed out totally on Clomid (thins my uterine lining, and still no ovulation) and failed on the first round of Femara. I've been very, very fortunate that my family and friends have been quite supportive and reminded me numerous times when I've been feeling guilty, wondering if this is because of something I did, that this is not my fault.

At the same time, I've heard plenty of people (fortunately, typically acquaintances who don't always know my situation) remark on how 'natural' is the way to go with, well, everything. There's an incredible amount of judgment there on people who have to use medications, a sort of implied "you aren't trusting your body to do what it's supposed to". Part of me wants to stand up and start screaming "I won't get pregnant naturally. I don't f'ing ovulate! My body DOESN'T DO what it's supposed to do 'naturally'. Medical therapy is my best chance, and yes, that includes drugs!" While I retain a healthy respect for some forms of alternative medicine, this is a condition that's going to require at best a combination of alternative and traditional/Western medical techniques.

[Lady_M]

I agree with Treemom that wanting a particular "birth experience" is a first world issue. I am rather extreme in my disgust for the "trust your body", natural is best crowd, and that is because of my experience with infertility. I am currently pregnant. You know how I got pregnant? With the help of a very competent doctor who took the time to test my partner and I to find out what was actually happening with our bodies, was respectful of how we wished to proceed with fertility treatments, and prescribed the right combination of meds that helped me ovulate and produce better quality eggs.

You know what didn't get me pregnant? Relaxing, eating goat's milk yogurt, praying to Jesus/Buddha/Freya, yoga, meditation, and all the other woo that smug people with no fertility issues have been preaching to me for 4 years. If I am lucky enough to give birth, it will be in a hospital with a NICU, my competent obgyn, and an assortment of trained professionals who know what to do when shit goes south. That will be empowering for me, because trusting my body means understanding what my body needs help with.

Now having said that, I think that some medical staff are jerks, and some medical procedures suck. However, part of solving that is being an advocate for yourself, or finding someone who will be your advocate. I think sometimes women patients try to be nice and accommodating to a fault, and think that entitles them to a doctor and nursing staff who can read the patient's mind and intuitively know what is and is not ok with the patient. I don't think that's how it should work. A patient is entitled to the best medical care and professional judgement possible. That is not always "empowering" sometimes it means emergency surgery so you or the baby don't die.

Congratulations on your pregnancy, Meda! Sending good wishes to you for a healthy pregnancy.

And seconding :clap: all the rest. I am totally asking to borrow your statement about how trusting your body means understanding what your body needs help with for the next time someone tells me to "relax" or similar - if that's okay with you.

[meda]

Lady M, if it helps to prevent you from kicking the smug and clueless, be my guest. Before dealing with infertility, I never realized how many people view physical illness as a moral failing.

[AuntCloud]

I was recently watching the Kona Ironman coverage. I was astounded by the athletic achievements, defrauded by contestants wearing compression tights and tank tops, and enjoyed watching the interviews with some of the contestants. One of the medalist said: "They say it's 90% in your head. That's completely not true. It doesn't matter how determined you are, once your legs give it, you're done". That's it. No preaching, no guilt-tripping. Some of us are better equipped to do an Ironman/conceive and carry a baby to term/macrame than others, through no special achievement but sheer luck.

[Lady_M]

Lady M, if it helps to prevent you from kicking the smug and clueless, be my guest.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

[jenny_islander]

Of course giving birth can be empowering. Sometimes, with an uncomplicated birth, the endorphins rushing through your system can make you higher than a kite! I flew for about 3 days after my first birth. And sometimes birth just makes a person tired albeit satisfied--second birth. And sometimes, just tired and relieved--third birth. But preaching the spiritual transformation of a particular birth process just sets people up for a huge letdown when it doesn't happen.

Me, I'm glad that, being part of several groups that the hypervigilant local hospital system declares to be automatically broken and in need of stuff whose side effects I do not need, I was able to stay home. Advocating for oneself in labor can be very difficult. Even if I hadn't gotten that one ass who told me ahead of time that I would die and the baby would die if he wasn't there to cut me up and down for my own good (and I never needed any of that, Doctor Eeyore!), I still get terrible whitecoat syndrome, to the point where I had my midwife promise not to use any isopropyl anywhere in the house and pre-tested myself by sniffing her usual disinfectants to make sure they didn't set me off.

But that still doesn't make giving birth at home a measure of holiness or worthiness or anything except being lucky enough to have my own comfy bed and my own washer and dryer. And three uncomplicated labors, which are never a sure thing for anyone.

[Hane]

This conversation reminds me of a friend of mine. She tried to breastfeed her baby, but couldn't lactate. Soon afterward, she learned that her mother didn't lactate either. I am so glad that she didn't run afoul of crunchymommies.

[treemom]

Of course giving birth can be empowering. Sometimes, with an uncomplicated birth, the endorphins rushing through your system can make you higher than a kite! I flew for about 3 days after my first birth. And sometimes birth just makes a person tired albeit satisfied--second birth. And sometimes, just tired and relieved--third birth. But preaching the spiritual transformation of a particular birth process just sets people up for a huge letdown when it doesn't happen.

Me, I'm glad that, being part of several groups that the hypervigilant local hospital system declares to be automatically broken and in need of stuff whose side effects I do not need, I was able to stay home. Advocating for oneself in labor can be very difficult. Even if I hadn't gotten that one ass who told me ahead of time that I would die and the baby would die if he wasn't there to cut me up and down for my own good (and I never needed any of that, Doctor Eeyore!), I still get terrible whitecoat syndrome, to the point where I had my midwife promise not to use any isopropyl anywhere in the house and pre-tested myself by sniffing her usual disinfectants to make sure they didn't set me off.

But that still doesn't make giving birth at home a measure of holiness or worthiness or anything except being lucky enough to have my own comfy bed and my own washer and dryer. And three uncomplicated labors, which are never a sure thing for anyone.

it also sets people up to be judgmental assholes when someone doesn't care about the birth experience. you know what was spiritually transforming? the coke and sandwich i ordered when they were stitching up my massive tears.

I had not been able to eat normally for 9 months. That sandwich and coca cola were a spiritual experience.

[valsa]

I see how it becomes a mechanism to cope. But, in reality, it is a biological process that's out of our control. Sure, we can do things like exercise and eat right that might help but can't hurt. But it's still not a process that we can control. Women's bodies have given birth while in a coma and others do everything they are told yet would die without intervention.

Claiming that it is empowering is damaging, IMO. It gives a false sense of control and it hurts women who feel like failures over something they can't control.

I think the best way to view childbirth is as a middle ground of neither being automatically completely in or completely out of our control. In some cases, women can have a problem-free natural birth no matter how many things they do "wrong". In other cases, women need a C-section no matter how many things they do "right". And the rest can use things like position changes, mild interventions, etc to try to affect the outcome.

Some women find the belief that childbirth is completely out of their control frightening (I'd be one of those) and others have problems with the thought that it's all under our control (like the ones who feel guilty they needed interventions) I prefer the moderate position of "sometimes you can do things to affect the birthing process but most of the time whatever happens, happens"

[lilah]

This guy needs to get over himself because dude it's not about your and you ManFeelings about Homebirth. Sure it's understandable to feel disappointed that you and your wife didn't get the birth experience you had dreamed of but does that need to be the focal point of your life when you just had a baby?

I think of homebirth/natural birth as analogous to running a marathon or climbing mount everest- it can be a really incredible experience for those who chose to attempt it but it doesn't make you less of a person because you haven't done those things.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I've had 2 hospital births and will not have another. My hospital experience was a nightmare (not my birth but the aftercare). HOWEVER, i have a more than proven pelvis, and "easy" births- once it comes time to push, the kid is out in under 20 minutes.

That being said.

I am of the firm belief that homebirth is NOT FOR EVERYONE. I think that you should have one uncomplicated vaginal birth under your belt, and employ a CNM as opposed to a DEM. And if I tried one and things went wonky i would be thanking G_d we lived in an age, and area where medical care for emergencies was easily obtained.

I loved my natural birth. But I also know that its either untenable or not possible for some women or hell, even not wanted, and that's OK.

[Wolfie]

At the same time, I've heard plenty of people (fortunately, typically acquaintances who don't always know my situation) remark on how 'natural' is the way to go with, well, everything. There's an incredible amount of judgment there on people who have to use medications, a sort of implied "you aren't trusting your body to do what it's supposed to". Part of me wants to stand up and start screaming "I won't get pregnant naturally. I don't f'ing ovulate! My body DOESN'T DO what it's supposed to do 'naturally'. Medical therapy is my best chance, and yes, that includes drugs!" While I retain a healthy respect for some forms of alternative medicine, this is a condition that's going to require at best a combination of alternative and traditional/Western medical techniques.

I have had problems with cysts, not polycystic as far as my diagnosis has been, but possibly endometriosis, and one person told me that her theory was that it was because I didn't have any kids. I don't think she meant it to be cruel, but it was. (even though I know it's not true, as I know many people who have had cysts and have children, including one who had a cyst that needed to be operated on during her pregnancy.)

People need to shut up sometimes.

[curlykate]

This guy needs to get over himself because dude it's not about your and you ManFeelings about Homebirth. Sure it's understandable to feel disappointed that you and your wife didn't get the birth experience you had dreamed of but does that need to be the focal point of your life when you just had a baby?

I think of homebirth/natural birth as analogous to running a marathon or climbing mount everest- it can be a really incredible experience for those who chose to attempt it but it doesn't make you less of a person because you haven't done those things.

This.

When I was pregnant, people were astounded that I wasn't considering a homebirth. To me, a homebirth is great....if that's what you feel comfortable doing! For me, I was much happier (and much more relaxed) knowing I was in a hospital, where if something went wrong, I was in the best place to have it dealt with. If other women are much more comfortable at home, then I'm glad they have the option of giving birth there. However, I don't see it as them being better than everyone else just because they chose to go the "natural" route. As long as the baby arrives safely, I don't care where the woman chooses to give birth!

[NjoyingNsanity]

I can totally understand how listening to people lucky enough to have a healthy baby bitch about not having the perfect birth they'd envisioned could make someone dealing with infertility want to slap the stupid out of them. My sister-in-law and her husband are going through it and it sucks, because they would make such wonderful parents that any kid would be so lucky to be raised by them. It makes me feel a bit guilty being the fertile myrtle of the family and sometimes forgetting how blessed I am.

One thing I've never understood after having had five kids is some moms near obsession with having the perfect "natural" birth. Me I'd read enough about what life was really like back in the day to really appreciate a hospital and easy access to life saving interventions and pain relief. I might be weird but I was never really into the idea of a home birth. The only slightly fringe thing I ever really wanted to try was laboring in water and that's only because I find water really soothing whenever I'm hurt or sick. The idea of a home birth always frightened me being in a hospital listening to the fetal heart monitor always kept me calm and reassured that my baby was fine and in case anything were to go wrong we were in the best possible place to be. Honestly I'm thankful for easy access to modern medical facilities two of my kids wouldn't be here without interventions one decided to come out face up and almost got stuck the other was my little gymnast and managed to keep turning in different breech positions right up to the 38 weeks and six days point and was transverse breech when she was delivered via c-section

[treemom]

I think the big difference between running a marathon and having a homebirth is that when people are disappointed they didn't complete a marathon, there aren't people on the other side of the world who were forced to run a marathon to completion which led to death of an infant and leaking piss and shit forever because they had no other choice.

I was disappointed when i didn't summit kili after planning to climb for a year, paying lots of money for the opportunity and getting 3 hours short of the summit before I developed severe complications from altitude sickness and turning back. And I didnt get a certificate, much less a baby out of it.

But the disappointment was mild. So yes, the disappointed, primarily white, middle to upper class women who whine about their stolen birth experience make me angry. I used to be more laid back about it. But then i went to Tanzania this summer. And failed to summit kili, but met amazing brave women who lost children because they had no other option than to "trust birth"

[wild little fox]

My cousin married when she was in her mid 30's and had a baby a little more than a year later. Her side of the family is small, not only in stature, but also in frame. My mother was adamant that cousin should not have a home birth, but since my cousin was born at home and her mother was so looking forward to it. I can understand that part, but it just should not have happened. As it ended up, they went to the hospital and the baby came via C-section. They were in the hospital for a long time after and the baby had to be on oxygen. My aunt, who is fundie, STILL goes on about how sad it was that they didn't have a homebirth. :angry-banghead: I STILL don't understand it! Their lives were on the line and it stressed the baby.

[jenny_islander]

it also sets people up to be judgmental assholes when someone doesn't care about the birth experience. you know what was spiritually transforming? the coke and sandwich i ordered when they were stitching up my massive tears.

I had not been able to eat normally for 9 months. That sandwich and coca cola were a spiritual experience.

I barfed straight through that first labor and the fish and chips they brought me after the baby was born were food of the gods!

[Jana814]

My cousin married when she was in her mid 30's and had a baby a little more than a year later. Her side of the family is small, not only in stature, but also in frame. My mother was adamant that cousin should not have a home birth, but since my cousin was born at home and her mother was so looking forward to it. I can understand that part, but it just should not have happened. As it ended up, they went to the hospital and the baby came via C-section. They were in the hospital for a long time after and the baby had to be on oxygen. My aunt, who is fundie, STILL goes on about how sad it was that they didn't have a homebirth. :angry-banghead: I STILL don't understand it! Their lives were on the line and it stressed the baby.

That's nuts!! Shouldn't you aunt be happy that your grandchild and daughter were healthy!!