Shaking with anger - Kelly Crawford is awful

[Hane]

How dare that person be named Jane. She's a blot on my name.

[Dev83]

Maybe I'm nuts, but I'm one USAdian who does not begrudge paying my fair share of taxes. I'm just an office worker, but my income falls in the top 20%. I'm a single empty-nester, with no one to support but myself. Maybe there's something wrong with me that I want to support things that don't benefit me directly at this point in my life (public schools, social welfare safety nets), but I've always believed that people should help one another.

Nope, I am in your camp completely. I would gladly pay higher taxes so that everyone would have access to healthcare, quality public education (INCLUDING sex education), inexpensive college, and so that no child or adult ever has to worry if they will be able to put food on the table.

And IMO that is what the Jesus that these assholes claim to follow would do. Unless I missed the portion of the bible that said "Make sure you keep all of your money and don't help the lazy poor people that don't deserve it because they are just going to go and get their nails done"

[JesusFightClub]

Stepping in here - I am a communist and I dream of an independent Scotland run on a system of workers' soviets. So I'm a bit unrepresentative of the forum as a whole :lol:

I've also been on welfare (and shortly will be again) and have been in charge of dishing it out. And I don't recognise Kelly's argument at all. It doesn't make any sense. :doh:

She's trying to say "We love all the poor people! But we don't want to give them any help!" These are two contradictory arguments. She's also got a Red Scare horror of socialism (intriguingly one of her contributors has made the "line" argument that socialism leads inexorably to communism. My belief would be that it should. But this is not what Effie or Obama are saying.)

I don't understand how someone can set themselves up as an authority and have such a completely incoherent line with no internal consistency at all. She's basically just saying "Um, yeah! Bad things! There's some bad things and some good things! I think! But anyway I'm horrified and the whole world is America and everywhere else is evil! Some people are sluts and shouldn't get money! But not me, I'm a good person!" How can people take her even vaguely seriously? That's a child's level of political debate.

In my work I see this a bit. I can't go into details but it does always remind me of 1984. "Take Julia! Julia! Not me!"

I applaud people like you, Effie, who actually bring the debate to them. I'm not clever enough to do it - I'm a natural apparatchik, sadly :oops: I love it when feisty FJists go and challenge these people on their own ground.

[aggythenostic]

would gladly pay higher taxes so that everyone would have access to healthcare, quality public education (INCLUDING sex education), inexpensive college, and so that no child or adult ever has to worry if they will be able to put food on the table.

THIS. I gladly pay school taxes although I have no children. Because it is good for EVERYONE to have an educated population.

These people do not understand how programs work. They seem to think someone strolls up to the window, and a nice socialist hands them a bunch of twenty dollar bills. Just to ponder Kelly's idiocy for one minute - who would administer these charities and decide where donations go? When would someone be truly 'needy' in their eyes? Was Kelly 'truly needy' when her house disappeared? Shouldn't she have made do with less? Lived with her parents? Not had all her stupid doily crap?

I just can't.

[Aisling]

I'm in N.Ireland so a different system but still..Due to various circumstances I've had to go on welfare before. I'm a student at the minute, so I have loans out for that, but *hopefully* if all goes to plan and I don't fuck up my dissertation, I will eventually graduate and be able to take up a reasonably well paid job. So when I do pay taxes, I won't mind at all, because I've seen how easily people can find themselves in positions where they need help. Frankly, if it wasn't for welfare tiding me over, I'd have been fucked for my entire life, instead of only a couple of years.

I see it as give and take. Yes I have had to depend on the welfare system, but by the time I retire I will have *touch wood* put in far more than I ever took out.

[Guest Anonymous]

I had to stop at "Some of the money that is stolen from me is going to pay for birth control. That is not caring for the impoverished" How the hell is paying for birth control it helping? It's helping those who can't afford more kids from having more kids and dividing already-meager resources among more mouths. That's a big help! A friend of mine didn't realize she was pregnant until she was 7 months along, and her family's in a bad position. Their youngest was about to start school and she was going to get a job. They need the money. But now it's child care and working or not working. Condoms didn't work as well as Depo or the pill would have backing it up.

[slickcat79]

I had to stop at "Some of the money that is stolen from me is going to pay for birth control. That is not caring for the impoverished" How the hell is paying for birth control it helping? It's helping those who can't afford more kids from having more kids and dividing already-meager resources among more mouths. That's a big help! A friend of mine didn't realize she was pregnant until she was 7 months along, and her family's in a bad position. Their youngest was about to start school and she was going to get a job. They need the money. But now it's child care and working or not working. Condoms didn't work as well as Depo or the pill would have backing it up.

Not to mention the fact that she wouldn't want her money "stolen" to help pay for the care of their children either. I guess some of them might meet her arbitrary standards of the "deserving" poor, but she'd mostly tell the freeloading slackers to lie in the bed they made.

[Guest Anonymous]

While I agree that Kelly C's reply is venomous, I find the idea of anyone being happy to pay taxes somewhat strange...

I know people who are happy to because they believe it's helping those who are less fortunate. It's not really an "oh my god oI'm so excited to pay taxes!" thing. It's more like "I'm happy to do what I can to help."

[Guest Anonymous]

"We live in a country where anyone feasibly determined and able to work can make a living."

Not when there are more people looking for jobs than there are jobs available, or when people with experience in a field can't get work in their field and aren't qualified for other non-entry-level careers, have no experience for most entry-level jobs or are considered over qualified, then have to compete with 20 others for a single part-time shift at McDonald's. If we were in a country with so many vacancies in every field that businesses just can't keep up and are desperate for workers because there aren't many people looking for new jobs, then I'd agree with her. Too bad there's this thing called reality.

[Guest Anonymous]

I’d also like to make a point, in the past when charity was private, poor people had to receive their help at the hands of the rich…and I am sure it was convicting to be rich and doing your duty, see the difficult situations in which people lived…and would spur feelings of compassion in you…rather than knowing that there are “poor†people out there, but not knowing any, never helped any, because the govt does it…

If this was so true, there wouldn't be countless stories out of those times past about poor people starving. A Christmas Carol was a response to the greed of the rich willing to let the working poor die. The Little Match Girl was about a CHILD who froze to death because no one would look twice at a barefoot homeless child when it was snowing. A lot of stories are commentaries of the times they're written, and endure today because of the uncomfortable truths they made people face.

The government stepped in because the rich weren't willing to lift a finger or spare a penny.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm sure Kelly would much rather see any poor person surviving on hot dogs and ramen noodles, though :roll:

RIght, because all that high-calorie processed crap loaded with salt will make people skinny.

[Guest Anonymous]

I often buy a giant chunk of meat and cut it into meat for several meals. It is very economical. I bought a giant hunk of beef for $1.69 a lb and it came to more than $30. But I cut it into steaks and roasts and stew meat, then froze it; it lasted my large family about a month. I live in an area where hamburger is around $5-6 a pound on sale, so this was a great deal. If I ate pork, I might think I was the woman in Kelly's little vignette because most of our meat comes from deals like this.

When I was a kid, we weren't rich. We had a lot of hamburger because it was cheapest then. It was the bits and pieces of whatever was left. When I grew up, married, and ended up in charge of a household on a tight budget, for a while I went right for the hamburger and was upset it cost so much. I didn't even want to look at the delicious roasts that were treats growing up. But one day I did since we had a little extra one month, and I was floored to see that whole cuts are usually cheaper! I've bought strip steak for $1 less a pound than the hamburger on sale. Filet Mignon is always too expensive, but even t-bones can be $6 a pound or less on sale. Roasts can be as little at 69 cents when sales are really good. The trick is getting ahead enough to buy for a month instead of having a $20 and buying until you get another $20 to buy a little more. We got on food stamps and that made it so we could buy on sale without going hungry until. We have a pound of ground in the freezer for chili on Sunday. Otherwise it's chicken, fish, pork, and a couple pieces of beef. We don't eat "poor" because we were blessed enough to get a month ahead. I'm sure some people look down on us for buying whole cuts of meat instead of more expensive hamburger.

[Guest Anonymous]

Secondly, if she thinks "anyone feasibly determined and able to work" can make a living in the US, she really needs to read "Nickel and Dimed," or anything by Barbara Ehrenrich.

That was even written in an economy with a lot of jobs. It was still hard. I've read it twice and get so upset over the pregnant woman who was so exhausted from heavy housecleaning and only got a little bag of chips for her lunch.

[Guest Anonymous]

I beg to disagree... I voted, my vote was counted and for reginal elections we vote and those are counted to. Were the elections a bit sketchy? Every Venezuelan election since the last dictatorship is voiced out as a fraud (I kid you not, every last one) so realkly Venezuelans don't know how to lose =P. I don't know where you get that this is not a democracy. I could explina it further to you because I know how the press sometimes twists things. I am completely right wing but I cannot deny the reality of the situation.

I guess I could see that we could be considered part of the populism movement but a lot of our new laws are indeed socialist laws.

And I see now, well that makes sense (about the health care). Though seriously sometimes I wonder what people think they are asking for when they want 'socialism' to happen. Do you guys mean all of it or some aspects (like the health care, for example)? Because really getting socialism to work, I've come to realize, takes the WHOLE 100% of people to agree to it. And, as history has shown, people have issues with agreeing. I think the US has done it best by trying to implement some socialists things but not go completely ape shit with it (ala Venezuela)

All we want are for all people to have access to the basics, like medical care and healthy food. No one's saying let's cover plastic surgery or filet mignon and lobster. We're saying let's not bankrupt families when a kid gets cancer. Let's not make a woman with a limp in her breast go without a mammogram or a man with a testicular lump go without a prostate exam because these aren't seen as emergencies. Let's not make people starve or toss just enough of a bone that they can each cheap chili or hot dogs in their mac-and-cheese if they save a buck somewhere else in the budget.

No one is saying let's all pool all our money and divide it evenly. That would cause people to not work at all because they wouldn't have to and wouldn't be any poorer than someone else. We're not saying let's send millionaires to the poor house.

[mirele]

Maybe I'm nuts, but I'm one USAdian who does not begrudge paying my fair share of taxes. I'm just an office worker, but my income falls in the top 20%. I'm a single empty-nester, with no one to support but myself. Maybe there's something wrong with me that I want to support things that don't benefit me directly at this point in my life (public schools, social welfare safety nets), but I've always believed that people should help one another.

And, putting the social safety net aside, doesn't everyone LIKE having safe roads, water, bridges, and traffic lights? And who wouldn't rather rely on our local departments of public works, police, and fire departments instead of having to wait for BRADRICK! to deign to show up?

THIS!

I have no problem paying my taxes for just about everything except for the bloated defense budget. But I even pay those, because, frankly, tangling with the IRS as a tax protester is simply not worth it.

[snarktastic]

Hey Effie, can you fill us in on how the 'tyranny and misery' in Sweden's going right now? And all those communist murders? :lol:

It must be awful. The high median income, fantastic education system, great medical care, and outstanding national beauty.

You must just be longing to move to a trailer park in Alabama.

(Edited as I know how to spell Alabama. I think)

[Witsec7]

I don't mean to step on any toes here but I trhink as probably the only person living in a socialist country here should say: socialsm doesn't necessary a) work or is as good as people paint it out to be.

Here in the US we need those pieces of socialism that temper the inequities of capitalism. We need good schools, a social safety net, public housing, public transport, police, fire, water districts, and single payer health care for all Americans.

[emmiedahl]

Here in the US we need those pieces of socialism that temper the inequities of capitalism. We need good schools, a social safety net, public housing, public transport, police, fire, water districts, and single payer health care for all Americans.

A key thing to remember about the US is that we *can* afford those things. Socialism is not always an effective plan in countries that don't have enough to go resources around. You end up taking food from one person's mouth to put in someone else's.

In the US, there is a huge and growing underclass of working or want-to-be-working people who have no health care, bad roads, zero police protection, shitty schools, and are struggling just to keep a roof and food. There is an upper class that is growing in wealth but not in numbers, people who are using their fortunes to legally screw more people out of more money. Then there is a middle class sandwiched between, people who aspire to the upper class but could easily end up in the lower classes with a single bad decision or blip in the economy.

The middle class and working class do not exist merely to prop up the ultra-rich. We are people, with needs, and we deserve some of the benefits of the fortunes we are helping to create for the ultra-wealthy.

[tanksmom]

Kelly's complaint is that SHE doesn't get to choose who gets helped and that just annoys her. Anyone who uses the excuse that they are taxed so they won't give to charity wouldn't have given to charity without the tax. Really, she needs to look at some actual history books to see how well it worked when the church and private individuals took care of the poor. *Spoiler alert* it didn't work.

And for the poster who was complaining about the "plump" person buying the pork roast. Saying that you don't want to fat shame.... but.... is the same as fat shaming. You are judging someone on nothing more than how they look.

I will say that it's been awhile since I've read the bible but I'm pretty sure that it mentioned something about helping the less fortunate and it wasn't tied to them going to the same church that you went to.

[Witsec7]

Kelly's complaint is that SHE doesn't get to choose who gets helped and that just annoys her. Anyone who uses the excuse that they are taxed so they won't give to charity wouldn't have given to charity without the tax. Really, she needs to look at some actual history books to see how well it worked when the church and private individuals took care of the poor. *Spoiler alert* it didn't work.

And for the poster who was complaining about the "plump" person buying the pork roast. Saying that you don't want to fat shame.... but.... is the same as fat shaming. You are judging someone on nothing more than how they look.

I will say that it's been awhile since I've read the bible but I'm pretty sure that it mentioned something about helping the less fortunate and it wasn't tied to them going to the same church that you went to.

I have to say I thought about Kelly when I went shopping today. My SNAP card gets refilled on the 9th and weather permitting I do my big shopping. I was heading into the checkout line and she came to mind. I realized that my cart was filled with fresh fruits and veg and no really extravagant items. I went straight to the oil aisle and bought a six ounce bottle of white truffle oil. It's fantastic when sprayed on popcorn. I'll think of Kelly every time I enjoy it. :lol:

[Deleted03]

I beg to disagree... I voted, my vote was counted and for reginal elections we vote and those are counted to. Were the elections a bit sketchy? Every Venezuelan election since the last dictatorship is voiced out as a fraud (I kid you not, every last one) so realkly Venezuelans don't know how to lose =P. I don't know where you get that this is not a democracy. I could explina it further to you because I know how the press sometimes twists things. I am completely right wing but I cannot deny the reality of the situation.

I guess I could see that we could be considered part of the populism movement but a lot of our new laws are indeed socialist laws.

And I see now, well that makes sense (about the health care). Though seriously sometimes I wonder what people think they are asking for when they want 'socialism' to happen. Do you guys mean all of it or some aspects (like the health care, for example)? Because really getting socialism to work, I've come to realize, takes the WHOLE 100% of people to agree to it. And, as history has shown, people have issues with agreeing. I think the US has done it best by trying to implement some socialists things but not go completely ape shit with it (ala Venezuela)

Venezuela's score for democracy on Polity (a democracy score index) was -3 for 2000. To be considered democratic you need +6 (the range is -10 to +10) So no Venezuela is not a democracy. Now I agree there are limitations to those indicators. But to score -3 is significant.

Venezuela is the heart of the populism movement, not just maybe considered.

My Argentinian friend was floored to see the health state of people around here in the NorthEast. he said that he never seen that in Argentina. No the US did not do it well. Just look at the numbers and the expense of health care is much higher with such a small return in the US.

[Effie]

Aggy, what response did she give me? I didn't see it. She has removed it. I have tried to write a longer post here twice now, but my cell-phone messes with me

[aggythenostic]

It was her typical "I know you are but what am I" response - basically saying well if I'm so stupid, how about these stupid thoughts? Then she rambled on a bit about how Socialism is against God's way in some tortured idiocy.

[Effie]

It was her typical "I know you are but what am I" response - basically saying well if I'm so stupid, how about these stupid thoughts? Then she rambled on a bit about how Socialism is against God's way in some tortured idiocy.

Haha okay, no big surprise there. :doh:

(Let's see if she accepts my comment to Lucy.)

This is a social democracy, which is a direction within socialism. Social democracy is not 100 % socialism. I do not believe in 100 % true socialism. That comment of mine should have had the word ‘social democracy’ and not ‘socialism’ to be correct. I mentioned above somewhere that I live in a social democracy, didn’t I (otherwise I sure made a fool of myself)?

Honestly, I was mad when I wrote those small comments after each other up there, so they were indeed less reasonable than my first comment. My country is a “living example of why social democracy has succeeded†is what I should have written. Free market is part of (our model of) a social democracy. Those economists do not have a different perspective than mine. They pointed out a certain aspect, without within our modern social democracy, which has especially been proven to be successful. The only thing in that article which I would question is the focus on the last 15 years. The last 15 years are not the only successful years in our history.

Lucy, interesting observation. You can also observe that our abortion rates were considerably lower just some few years ago. Instead of focusing on our last years, look at the whole picture. Something has happened, during the last couple of years, which has led to the higher abortion rates we have today. Our version of your right-wingers (or well, the right side – perhaps I should not equal them to right-wingers) are in power today and they have been in power the last few years. They support our model of social democracy as well, but they often phase in economy measures. During their first term of office (they are now on their second term) they invested less in our public school, yet they wanted a lot of changes to happen. What do we have at public school? Yes, sexual education. How the quality has been of said education is questionable. (If anyone questioned the findings in the early 80s of how a proper sex. education among other factors leads to lower abortion rates, that person can now 30 years later notice how the Netherlands especially, but the rest of Western Europe, are all living examples of how far proper information can take you. I do not know if anyone still believes in abstinence education, but I sense that's possible, considering all those other ideas people have out there.)

I do not expect our higher abortion rates to remain that way. If they do so, I will not blame the Swedish Social Democrats for it, but the Moderate (Swedish Conservative) Party.

Lucy, I probably sound a lot nastier than I am. If you want to know more about this system, I would like to talk with you somewhere else. I do think I should continue commenting here.

[Effie]

Btw. If Kelly thinks her apology-comment meant anything to me, it didn't. It's certainly not the first time I have discussed something with her. I "know" her back from the time she had her blog "families against feminism". I know how nasty she is (but sometimes I forget that), so I expect sarcasm from her. I also know I didn't sound nice in my comments to her either. With a history of "knowing" her for 6 years, I do not have much nice things to say to her. (She doesn't know me, since I have had different IP:s, different e-mail addresses throughout the years...) I even wrote to her when I was a teenager. At that time I was horrified to read about her ideas (I had only seen similar views like hers in writings from misogynistic male authors from another century). Considering she wrote that women should stay at home, I just couldn't see what she based that on. I wrote something about how she should not focus so much on a person's vagina (because that was the main difference I saw between me and a man, and I thought she put waaay too much focus on that...). Of course that comment never saw the light.