Parental Notification Bill

[Turtle]

In an ideal world, a responsible parent should be informed of their child's medical procedure so they can support them, watch for complications, ect.

But a young women who is pregnant, seeking an abortion and terrified to tell her parents because of the negative repercussions isn't living in an ideal world, so we have to adjust to ensure her safety.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I have said before that I have mixed feelings. And I still do. I cannot imagine my child being afraid to tell me something like this, but teenagers are strange people sometimes and hesitant to admit mistakes.

I would rather my daughter get an abortion without my knowledge than try to have an unsafe and illegal one. I would rather she get an abortion without my knowledge than hide the pregnancy and live in denial until it is so late in the pregnancy that her options are restricted. I would rather she get an abortion without my knowledge than secretly give birth and abandon the baby in an unsafe location. So, as much as I would like to be informed about her general health and be there to support her, if that was not an option in her POV then an abortion should still be an option.

This is why I keep condoms and a morning after pill in the teenager's bathroom and replenish as needed without comment. Heaven forbid that my child be faced with this type of situation.

Exactly.

Our doctor (nicely) kicked me out of the exam room once my oldest turned 12. That was perfectly fine with me. I want my kids to be completely comfortable with their doctor and know that they have a safe place to discuss any medical concerns. To me, that's more important than my desire for control.

One smart thing that my mom did as we were growing up was to do "sex ed via pamphlet". Neither of us was really comfortable with face-to-face mother/daughter talks about sex, but she knew I loved to read and so she literally gave me a stack of pamphlets. One of them was for teen clinics run by the public health department. When I was getting ready to sleep with my boyfriend, I was too embarrassed to go to my regular doctor, so I took the pamphlet and went to the teen clinic instead. She knew that if she made the information and resources available, and stressed in general the importance of preventing both unwanted pregnancy and diseases, that we would be in a position to make good decisions.

[MrsKay]

I have said before that I have mixed feelings. And I still do. I cannot imagine my child being afraid to tell me something like this, but teenagers are strange people sometimes and hesitant to admit mistakes.

I would rather my daughter get an abortion without my knowledge than try to have an unsafe and illegal one. I would rather she get an abortion without my knowledge than hide the pregnancy and live in denial until it is so late in the pregnancy that her options are restricted. I would rather she get an abortion without my knowledge than secretly give birth and abandon the baby in an unsafe location. So, as much as I would like to be informed about her general health and be there to support her, if that was not an option in her POV then an abortion should still be an option.

This is why I keep condoms and a morning after pill in the teenager's bathroom and replenish as needed without comment. Heaven forbid that my child be faced with this type of situation.

This. My daughter doesn't live with me, and her grandparents don't always agree with me about things, but this area is one where I refuse to budge. I gave her "the talk" in a very thorough manner, and have reminded her several times that she is RH negative, so she needs to tell the doctor if she thinks that she might have been pregnant. I've made it very clear that the doctor will not be telling us anything. Her grandparents weren't too sure about the way I went about it, but there's not much they can do. They know that if something happens and she needs an abortion, I'll make damn sure that she gets it regardless of what they say or do.

However, I know that in times like unplanned pregnancy, any teenager can freak right out, and be afraid that her family will change their minds and go ballistic over it. If that ever happens, I want her to be able to feel like she CAN hide it if she needs to, and get an abortion in secret. No, it's not what I want her to go through, not ever. But if it's that or else a septic self-abortion or baby in a trash can? Yeah, I think I'll be voting for no parental consent or notification needed.

[BlackHawk]

Exactly.

Our doctor (nicely) kicked me out of the exam room once my oldest turned 12. That was perfectly fine with me. I want my kids to be completely comfortable with their doctor and know that they have a safe place to discuss any medical concerns. To me, that's more important than my desire for control.

One smart thing that my mom did as we were growing up was to do "sex ed via pamphlet". Neither of us was really comfortable with face-to-face mother/daughter talks about sex, but she knew I loved to read and so she literally gave me a stack of pamphlets. One of them was for teen clinics run by the public health department. When I was getting ready to sleep with my boyfriend, I was too embarrassed to go to my regular doctor, so I took the pamphlet and went to the teen clinic instead. She knew that if she made the information and resources available, and stressed in general the importance of preventing both unwanted pregnancy and diseases, that we would be in a position to make good decisions.

I know it's a difference in where we live and how we grew up, but while I'd be fine not being in the exam room, I would expect to be kept updated on my children's medical conditions. I don't need to know every nitty gritty detail, but I would expect to get a basic overview, even if it's just "The exam went great, everything checked out fine, and we'll see yah back in a year". And I would expect not to be lied to (such as being told everything is fine while the doc writes my child a script for depression meds cause she said she wanted to off herself). I don't care what anyone says, a 12 year old is not old enough to make their own medical decisions.

That said, I am torn on the parent notifications bills. I understand what everyone is saying about the abuse reasons, but at the same time my (hypothetical) 16 year old cannot get her ears pierced, sign for any other medical surgery, or even sign herself out of school without my permission. I also know, however, that I wouldn't prevent my child from having an abortion if that is what she really wanted. However, I just don't feel comfortable with a child who cannot sign her own slips being allowed to have a medical procedure without my knowledge. It's not even about permission for me, it's merely knowledge.

[patsymae]

Kids who feel like they can tell their parents do tell their parents.

And what about cases in which it is daddy or another male family member who caused the pregnancy in the first place? Not as uncommon as one would hope.

[valsa]

That said, I am torn on the parent notifications bills. I understand what everyone is saying about the abuse reasons, but at the same time my (hypothetical) 16 year old cannot get her ears pierced, sign for any other medical surgery, or even sign herself out of school without my permission. I also know, however, that I wouldn't prevent my child from having an abortion if that is what she really wanted. However, I just don't feel comfortable with a child who cannot sign her own slips being allowed to have a medical procedure without my knowledge. It's not even about permission for me, it's merely knowledge.

If she has the baby she can sign herself up for a C-section, an epidural, an episiotomy, and any other treatment she may need in regard to complications that arise due to the pregnancy. Once she has the child, she decides every medical (and other, legal) decision on behalf of the child.

[Rosa]

But Blackhawk, what if you were one of these fundie parents who would steal the antidepressants and take the kid in for a ceremony to banish the demon of depression instead?

Or what if your kid was depressed because Uncle Joey was molesting him or her - and had already told you and you threatened to send her to teen re-education camp if she didn't stop lying about Uncle Joey?

Think about the bloggers we read. Think about kids you knew in school who got the shit beat out of them for not towing their parents line.

OBVIOUSLY I don't think you'd be that person. I'm only using your name because I'm responding to you.

Every parent thinks they're the good parent who should get to know everything. And clearly, not every parent is.

[BlackHawk]

But Blackhawk, what if you were one of these fundie parents who would steal the antidepressants and take the kid in for a ceremony to banish the demon of depression instead?

Or what if your kid was depressed because Uncle Joey was molesting him or her - and had already told you and you threatened to send her to teen re-education camp if she didn't stop lying about Uncle Joey?

Think about the bloggers we read. Think about kids you knew in school who got the shit beat out of them for not towing their parents line.

OBVIOUSLY I don't think you'd be that person. I'm only using your name because I'm responding to you.

Every parent thinks they're the good parent who should get to know everything. And clearly, not every parent is.

While that may or may not happen in the world, at what age would you give the child the ability to have free reign in their doctors office? I mean, I know a 5 year old who is depressed and is on medication. Should have child have been given medication without parental knowledge because the parents may have stolen the meds?

I mean, you can go to the extremes for everything, but I don't think you can live in the extremes. Letting the child go in with the doctor on their own, I'm fine with that as they hit an age where they are more comfortable that way. Letting a child get medications without parental knowledge because something extreme may happen? I'm not so okay with that.

As for the molesting issue, when a child reveals that to their doctor, the doctor is required by law to report said case to CPS. There is no need to go to the parents, as by law they are to go straight to CPS.

I am not so dead set on the issue that I'm willing to die on the pavement for it. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around letting a young child make their own medical decision. They are children who may or may not understand completely the risks associated with medications or the likes. That's all I'm really saying.

[valsa]

I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around letting a young child make their own medical decision. They are children who may or may not understand completely the risks associated with medications or the likes. That's all I'm really saying.

But as has been pointed out, with regard to pregnancy, if the girl doesn't have an abortion and wants to have the child she gets to make all the medical decisions for both herself and the child. Why should abortion be held to a standard of "they're too young to make their own decisions" when child birth (which is far more medically risky and complex) is not.

[BlackHawk]

But as has been pointed out, with regard to pregnancy, if the girl doesn't have an abortion and wants to have the child she gets to make all the medical decisions for both herself and the child. Why should abortion be held to a standard of "they're too young to make their own decisions" when child birth (which is far more medically risky and complex) is not.

Yes, I saw that you pointed that out. I wanted to do a little research on it, because I had never heard that before. You are correct in that they get to make their own decisions regarding birth and delivery. I'm not saying a 16 year old shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions regarding abortion. I haven't said that. What I've said is I'm torn on the idea of not notifying the parent of an underage child that said child had a medical procedure. There are risks involved in an abortion, standards of care that need to be adhered to after the procedure is completed... and as a concerned parent I would want to know. I also understand the extremes that people point out here. There are parents who would abuse the teen, who would use this as an opportunity to shame the teen, who would be down right assholes and the teen may be in fear of her life. Which is why I'm torn on the whole concept.

[valsa]

as a concerned parent I would want to know.

As would I.

However, on this particular subject, the risk of harm far outweighs any positives.

It's a fair assumption that supportive parents who have a healthy and positive relationship with their child wouldn't need this law, because the child would inform them about the abortion herself.

The only people who benefit from this law are people who have daughters that have a reason not to tell them about the abortion.

Frankly, as much as I would want to know if my child had an abortion (to keep an eye out for the complications you mentioned), if we don't have the kind of relationship where she could tell me about it herself- then I don't deserve to know.

[kb2]

Another thing is, your options aren't, I will never be told about my child's abortion vs parental notification laws. In the state where I live, notifying parents on issues of teen sexual health is considered up to the health provider's discretion--they are neither required to inform the parents nor to not inform them. So if a teenager gets a positive pregnancy test, the doctor/nurse doesn't have to inform the parents, but they can.

And you don't have to be abusive for your kid to not want to come to you and tell you they're pregnant. A lot of parents wouldn't be abusive, and they may even be supportive of their child's decision to abort, but they would still be disappointed, and it would still be a hard thing to face.

[valsa]

And you don't have to be abusive for your kid to not want to come to you and tell you they're pregnant. A lot of parents wouldn't be abusive, and they may even be supportive of their child's decision to abort, but they would still be disappointed, and it would still be a hard thing to face.

True, you don't have to be abusive to have a child who doesn't want to tell you they're pregnant. However, even if the child just doesn't want to face your disappointment, the fact that that is a "petty" reason still isn't a good enough excuse to violate their right to reproductive privacy. A pregnant teen girl shouldn't have to justify their reason for not wanting to tell their parents or prove that it's a "good enough" reason to the doctor.

It makes me sad that your state allows doctors to violate that privacy. As a teen I really only opened up to my doctor for medical advice on sexual matters once I knew he wasn't allowed to tell my parents anything I said.

[kb2]

True, you don't have to be abusive to have a child who doesn't want to tell you they're pregnant. However, even if the child just doesn't want to face your disappointment, the fact that that is a "petty" reason still isn't a good enough excuse to violate their right to reproductive privacy. A pregnant teen girl shouldn't have to justify their reason for not wanting to tell their parents or prove that it's a "good enough" reason to the doctor.

It makes me sad that your state allows doctors to violate that privacy. As a teen I really only opened up to my doctor for medical advice on sexual matters once I knew he wasn't allowed to tell my parents anything I said.

I agree with you that there shouldn't be a "good enough" reason to not tell the parents. Parental notification laws don't just hurt pregnant teens in abusive families, they can hurt pregnant teens in normal families.

[Dev83]

Laws like these end in th deaths of kids. Plain and simple. Of course, no one on the pro-life side seems to think that is an issue.

Dropping this here:

Bill and Karen Bell

Sixteen years ago we would have supported legislation mandating parental involvement laws. Bills have been introduced by legislators to require minors under the age of 18 to notify their parents before obtaining an abortion, and to require minors to receive their parent's consent for an abortion. While these pieces of legislation seem reasonable on the surface, our experience has taught us that parental involvement laws seriously endanger the very families and teens they are intended to protect.

In 1988, our beautiful, vibrant, 17-year-old daughter Becky died suddenly, after a six-day illness. The pathologist who directed her autopsy concluded that the cause of her death was streptococcus pneumonia, brought about by an illegal abortion. Learning this, we finally understood our daughter's last words. In the hospital, she had taken off her oxygen mask and said, "Mom, Dad, I love you. Forgive me."

How could this have happened? Why would Becky have risked an illegal abortion? How could parents as close to their daughter as we had always been not have known that she was pregnant and desperate to deal with a situation that she believed she couldn't share with us?

We learned the sad answers to these questions in the weeks following our daughter's death. Becky had told her girlfriends that she believed we would be terribly hurt and disappointed in her if she told us about her pregnancy. Like a lot of young people, she was not comfortable sharing intimate details of her developing sexuality with her parents.

Becky discovered that our state has a parental consent law, which requires girls under the age of 18 to get their parent's permission before they can get an abortion. A Planned Parenthood counselor told her that she could apply for a judicial bypass as an alternative to parental consent. The counselor remembered Becky's response: "If I can't talk to my parents, how can I tell a judge who doesn't even know me?" We now know that in over ten years on the bench, the judge in our district has never issued a waiver to a teen for an abortion.

Desperate to avoid telling us about her pregnancy, and therefore unable to go to a reputable medical establishment, where abortions are provided compassionately and safely every day, Becky found someone operating outside the law who would help her. Becky had a back alley abortion. Indiana's parental involvement law ultimately led our daughter to her death.

Studies have established that the majority of teenagers (60-70%) do talk to their parents when they become pregnant. Of those who don't, about one-third are at risk of physical or emotional abuse. The rest, like Becky, believe for myriad reasons that this is a problem they must face without their parents.

Parental involvement laws further isolate girls in this last category, who feel it is impossible to turn to their parents, forcing them to instead make decisions and arrangements on their own.

All parents would want to know if their child was in a situation like Becky's. In fact, we would have supported the law in our state before we experienced the loss of our daughter. We have been forced to learn in the most painful way imaginable that laws cannot create family communication. We would rather have not known that our daughter had had an abortion, if it meant that she could have obtained the best of care, and come back home safely to us.

Many of you have daughters and granddaughters, and we are sure that you would want to be involved in any issues relating to their health and well-being - just as we did. Yet, the law in Indiana did not force Becky to involve us at her most desperate time.

As much as we would have wanted to help Becky through this crisis, the law did not succeed in forcing her to talk to us about issues she found too upsetting to share with us. For the sake of other parents' daughters, we urge legislators who are considering these very dangerous bills to remember Becky Bell, and to pass no laws that will increase the chances that even one desperate girl will feel that her only choice is an illegal abortion.

The law in Indiana did not make Becky come to us. Will other parental involvement laws be any different?

[Minerva]

It's a nitpick, but at sixteen you can get your ears and any part of your body except your face pierced without an adult signing for you. At least in Ontario you can. Furthermore, this is just the standard procedure that piercers have - I've never heard about there being a law governing piercings.

I totally understand parents wanting to know what medical procedures their preteen has had (after sixteen or so, it's the teen's business as far as I'm concerned - not only would I have been pretty fucked if I couldn't get birth control behind my dad's back at that age, but I would have been plain offended if my doctor had shared any of my medical information with my parents). However parental notification laws don't even come close to guaranteeing that you'll be told about your daughter's abortion. Judicial bypasses make the experience more traumatic, but they effectively de-fang the law. If she doesn't want you finding out, short of the judge being particularly conservative or her discovering her pregnancy shortly before the time limit, you won't be finding out. A much more effective way of ensuring you're aware of your daughter's medical history past puberty is having an open, sex-positive, non-judgemental parent-child relationship with her. That still doesn't guarantee anything, but it's a hell of a lot safer and more effective than a parental notification law.