Question about "Marxists" and "socialists"

[thoughtful]

Mine:

Shall we all get together and have the Dalai Lama over for lunch?

[Alecto]

Thoughtful, that sounds like a splendid idea! We can invite Nelson Mandella as well.

[Staceyjw]

The fundies hate socialism for several reasons, the primary one is that they believe the govt has no business dealing with social care/services, that they feel wreck the social order (Christian Patriarchy). They think that the poor and such should be helped only by the church (with strings, of course). They also feel that the government helping families remain financially stable only destroys the true family structure, ie Patriarchy. When Mom is able to work out of the home, and single moms can survive, women and children are no longer dependent on the male head of household. And that household isn't dependent on a church to help them either. To the fundies, this is the source of all evil.

While non fundies see guaranteed paid maternity/paternity leave, health care not linked to employment, food programs, subsidized child care, and welfare, as necessary and family friendly, fundies see this as anything but. This is why they can scream about being "family friendly" until they are blue in the face, while passing policy that directly harms families. The thing is, they only want to support some families, ones just like their own, and think that their tax dollars going to secular services is forcing them to support for the wrong type of family.

Since they believe Patriarchy is mandated by the Bible, they can easily convince themselves that a secular government helping the poor is against Gods plan. They may donate to a fundie charity or a mission, and assume this fulfills their Christian duty, but they never help without strings.

I don't agree with this way of thinking, but at least I get it. What I DONT understand is all of the hard working, lower income American families that also hate socialism and consistently vote against things that would help them. "Socialism" is like "liberal"- words that are like boogie men, even though if you showed people their actual meanings and related beliefs, many more people would identify themselves as such. The Rethuglicans are genius- getting poor people to vote for the things that rich people want in the age of easy to get information, is a PR miracle. They use religion, and it works.

[thoughtful]

Thoughtful, that sounds like a splendid idea! We can invite Nelson Mandella as well.

Great!

Let's plan the menu - no tater tot casserole, OK?

[notsocommon]

Some people think that socialism would lead to communism. Its silly, I know but that is what they believe.

Like any of them even knows what either means.

[tehgoobster]

The fundies hate socialism for several reasons, the primary one is that they believe the govt has no business dealing with social care/services, that they feel wreck the social order (Christian Patriarchy). They think that the poor and such should be helped only by the church (with strings, of course). They also feel that the government helping families remain financially stable only destroys the true family structure, ie Patriarchy. When Mom is able to work out of the home, and single moms can survive, women and children are no longer dependent on the male head of household. And that household isn't dependent on a church to help them either. To the fundies, this is the source of all evil.

Exactly. If people were dependent on churches for charity, many churches could withhold help from those who didn't live according to their precepts. If people were truly desperate for food, for example, it's possible that they'd comply with the church's teachings (at least outwardly) in order to put food on the table. There would be no government schools, so eventually, only the wealthy would be thoroughly well-educated, thus ensuring a rigid class system. The patriarchs at the top of the totem pole would need people to tend to their vast estates, and who better to do it than the uneducated, needy masses? Some fundies think that slavery is biblical, so people could become slaves to pay off their debts, and that'd serve the godly patriarchs' needs even better. Basically, churches would have more control to lord it over the needy and advance their interests, and that's just the way that some fundies would like it.

[Austin]

Exactly. If people were dependent on churches for charity, many churches could withhold help from those who didn't live according to their precepts. If people were truly desperate for food, for example, it's possible that they'd comply with the church's teachings (at least outwardly) in order to put food on the table. There would be no government schools, so eventually, only the wealthy would be thoroughly well-educated, thus ensuring a rigid class system. The patriarchs at the top of the totem pole would need people to tend to their vast estates, and who better to do it than the uneducated, needy masses? Some fundies think that slavery is biblical, so people could become slaves to pay off their debts, and that'd serve the godly patriarchs' needs even better. Basically, churches would have more control to lord it over the needy and advance their interests, and that's just the way that some fundies would like it.

ITA with your assessment, and it seems like we tried this for a couple thousand years and it didn't work too well. . . at least for anybody not in the upper echelon.

[bbfreethinker]

Thoughtful, that sounds like a splendid idea! We can invite Nelson Mandella as well.

Ooh, can I come too? I'm almost smack dab in the middle of the green square. Or is it rude to invite myself?

[Alecto]

Ooh, can I come too? I'm almost smack dab in the middle of the green square. Or is it rude to invite myself?

You are more than welcome!

[notsocommon]

I am in the same area as most of you guys. Can I come to the party as well? I have fresh, homemade blueberry cobbler!

[slh12280]

Don't know how to show the graph but here ya go:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... 5&soc=3.44

Please go easy on me :)

[Brainsample]

Don't know how to show the graph but here ya go:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... 5&soc=3.44

Please go easy on me :)

If you were over on that vertical axis where I'd put Doug Phillips, I'd be really really worried! You're only falling out with Sarah Palin and Huckabee, aren't you? :mrgreen:

[Brainsample]

The fundies hate socialism for several reasons, the primary one is that they believe the govt has no business dealing with social care/services, that they feel wreck the social order (Christian Patriarchy).

But here's the kicker -- most all of what passes for Christian patriarchy was obliterated. Jesus did nothing but go around braking all of the social rules concerning women. And Paul's writings get sticky in translation because of his advanced level of Greek. When you look at Jesus in context, He was a blasphemous rebel in terms of the Jewish patriarchal system, and he was committing blasphemy, over and over.

The stuff that's written there is cultural -- to not needlesly buck the social order. But in principle and as the principles of Christianity changed culture, it should free women, just like slaves were freed. Most of this patriarchy stuff is entirely social.

Christianity doesn't want you to abandon your kids if you're a mom -- not any more than any rational and well adjusted mother does, no matter what her belief system. And in special circumstances, it doesn't matter as long as the family's needs are met. That is written even in the old Jewish law -- and many of those tasks (domestic support) can be delegated to another who is hired to help with them.

It's the traditions of social stuff that gets passed off as expressly Christian that's the problem. Look at the discussion of dresses. Technically, everyone wore robes, and they did not wear dresses. But what would the pissing preacher tell you?

[JesusFightClub]

Like any of them even knows what either means.

I do, and it does make sense...but many fail to see how it would work in practice and that a mildly centre left government like Obama's is not, actually, some kind of socialist revolution. Or even "the long march through the institutions" which I doubt any of them either understand, know or place in context.

[meda]

[attachment=0]Untitled.jpg[/attachment]

Can I come to lunch? I'll bring the organic, fair trade dessert that I bartered for with the anarchist baking collective.

[Deleted12]

I wouldn't want anyone to be confused about where I'm coming from on the whole "socialism" thing, so here's mine:

<>

[debrand]

I've taken the test before and my dot was on the vertical line. It's moved to the left. Now I'm in the light green with the Dalai Lahma

For some reason, I can't copy and poste my results. How do you guys get the graph to show in your post?

[Austin]

I've taken the test before and my dot was on the vertical line. It's moved to the left. Now I'm in the light green with the Dalai Lahma

For some reason, I can't copy and poste my results. How do you guys get the graph to show in your post?

I'm not great at these things, Debrand, but here's what worked for me: After I took the test, I opened FJ in another window and opened a new response to this topic. I clicked on the "Img" button in the formatting bar and then I went back to my graph, right clicked and opened properties, and copied and pasted the image URL between the "Img" codes on my ope post just as with any other formatting code.

Hope that helps.

[debrand]

Thanks Austin. :clap:

[bananacat]

I hope you guys realize that that libertarian graph is essentially propaganda to convince naive college students that they are Libertarian. The questions are so ridiculously skewed that it's basically impossible to be anything other than libertarian without casting yourself as pure evil.

[Kaylee]

I've taken this a few times in the past. I find it interesting that, as I get older, my "dot" keeps moving down and to the left. I guess I really am become more "liberal" with age. :o

[GolightlyGrrl]

Well, this isn't a surprise.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... &soc=-3.28

[Austin]

I hope you guys realize that that libertarian graph is essentially propaganda to convince naive college students that they are Libertarian. The questions are so ridiculously skewed that it's basically impossible to be anything other than libertarian without casting yourself as pure evil.

Well, I certainly don't think anyone will be making major life decisions based on a little quiz on the webz, any more than one would with a quiz in Cosmo.

But thanks for warning us. :roll:

[bananacat]

I'm just surprised that anyone even takes it seriously. It might as well just ask "Are you libertarian or do you love Hitler?" or "Do you love or hate freedom?" It's really has some of the most leading questions I have ever seen in a questionnaire.

[clarinetpower]

*walks in late to the party, but has 2 bottles of wine and a chocolate cheesecake so hopes everyone will act happy to see her*