Do You Ever Feel Sad?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I do feel sad for the kids, they didnt choose this life and they have no future. Especially when you see little kids who are very bright and intelligent, and know that by the time they are adults that spirit will be crushed out of them and they will be as unhappy looking as their siblings.

[ilovetchotchkes]

In my church there's a little girl (maybe 2) who always runs out of the aisle and grabs the deaconess' hand when she's walking to the back of the church during the recession. It's absolutely adorable. One day I watched her and realized that infraction would probably cost dearly in plumbing supply line in another church and another life. The kids in my church are all whip-smart, polite, talented, energetic, helpful and vivacious, and it breaks my heart to look at them and think all these people see is a big red and white target; they're all I think about when I read some tirade on child beating. Michael Pearl, or anyone wielding plumbing supply line, will touch those children over my dead body.

My 2 year old is extremely spirited, stubborn and well, HIM.

I thank G-d every day we got him and not some fundie family who would beat the precious amazing spirit out of him.

[formerlyfundie]

Honestly, I have recently come to the point where I not only feel sad, but guilty as well. As someone who struggles deeply with trying to erase my mind of all things fundie related, I keep slipping back from guilt and fear. I have issues when my children say or do things that are inappropriate (granted they are 2 and 1) and feeling like them misbehaving is my fault because fundie children are so "well behaved". My daughter is a free spirited little sprite, my son is a CARING, nurturing little boy, so the opposite of the gender roles forced in these circles. I struggle with getting dressed and wondering if I'm "defrauding" anyone. -_-. This lifestyle bleeds into every part of your life and the guilt is overwhelming, even when you think you are over it. I was only "in" for 4 years, but coming out has been a horrible spiritual struggle. I can't even imagine what the Duggar or Maxwell kids would face if they ever left...they have been indoctrinated since birth.

[fundiefan]

I feel sad for for the little kids and babies. I do not feel sad for the grown adults who have every ability to choose otherwise but don't. I don't feel sorry for Sarah Maxwell (or other adults) because she's chosen to spend her adult life as a child in her father's house. For all that comes with leaving - she's a legal adult and could do it if she wanted to. She has chosen her life.

The little kids don't have a choice and I feel very sad for the hellish lives they are born into. When a baby is born to these fundie breeders, my heart breaks a little. When teenagers are married off, my heart breaks a little.

But, when an adult makes a choice, there is no sadness.

[salsa]

I feel sad for for the little kids and babies. I do not feel sad for the grown adults who have every ability to choose otherwise but don't. I don't feel sorry for Sarah Maxwell (or other adults) because she's chosen to spend her adult life as a child in her father's house. For all that comes with leaving - she's a legal adult and could do it if she wanted to. She has chosen her life.

The little kids don't have a choice and I feel very sad for the hellish lives they are born into. When a baby is born to these fundie breeders, my heart breaks a little. When teenagers are married off, my heart breaks a little.

But, when an adult makes a choice, there is no sadness.

I disagree with you about the adults. When your choices are taken away from you from birth, you become grown without really becoming an adult. You are groomed to second-guess any thought you have about independence or anything other than towing the party line. It's much like an abused spouse, IMO. It seems easy to say, "well, they ought to leave!" but when their spirit is crushed and they have no confidence left, they really believe they could not survive outside of that particlar relationship. Add that sort of Stockholm Syndrome to the threat of possibly destroying one's spiritual welfare and voila! You've got an adult who really can't make an informed decision.

[Deleted01]

Honestly, I have recently come to the point where I not only feel sad, but guilty as well. As someone who struggles deeply with trying to erase my mind of all things fundie related, I keep slipping back from guilt and fear. I have issues when my children say or do things that are inappropriate (granted they are 2 and 1) and feeling like them misbehaving is my fault because fundie children are so "well behaved". My daughter is a free spirited little sprite, my son is a CARING, nurturing little boy, so the opposite of the gender roles forced in these circles. I struggle with getting dressed and wondering if I'm "defrauding" anyone. -_-. This lifestyle bleeds into every part of your life and the guilt is overwhelming, even when you think you are over it. I was only "in" for 4 years, but coming out has been a horrible spiritual struggle. I can't even imagine what the Duggar or Maxwell kids would face if they ever left...they have been indoctrinated since birth.

This.

After I quit working at the Christian school, and was (though I didn't realize it then) on my way out of fundiedom, I also struggled with that. I kind of went the other extreme and flat out refused to wear a skirt or dress, even to church.

Another shining example of fundie double standards - the last IFB church I attended (not the one with the school), the pastor had taken my husband aside and told him that he would "prefer" if my girls and I wore skirts/dresses to church. Nothing EVER was said about the men wearing suits and ties, so they'd come to church wearing jeans and t-shirts. I told my headship that I'd consistently wear skirts/dresses to church as soon as the pastor starting requesting the men to wear a suit. Headship saw my point and never said a word about it again.

[twin2]

I disagree with you about the adults. When your choices are taken away from you from birth, you become grown without really becoming an adult. You are groomed to second-guess any thought you have about independence or anything other than towing the party line. It's much like an abused spouse, IMO. It seems easy to say, "well, they ought to leave!" but when their spirit is crushed and they have no confidence left, they really believe they could not survive outside of that particlar relationship. Add that sort of Stockholm Syndrome to the threat of possibly destroying one's spiritual welfare and voila! You've got an adult who really can't make an informed decision.

I was watching some documentary on TV a while back about Stockholm syndrome. When they went through actions of the captures and the traits of the victims, the first thing that popped into my mind was the Maxwells. The descriptions fit them completely. I think it was reading Sarah's post where she thanked her parents for not allowing her to have friends was when I realized that the she was so far gone her ability to choose anything no longer exists.

[meda]

I feel sad for the children and young adults who will miss so much in life and be stuck inside such a very small, dark little world. What I feel most is anger and fear for the future, because the wholesale rejection of science, modern medicine, schools, the complete contempt felt by them for our government institutions, courts, the constitution, unwillingness to serve in the military, peace corps, or any charitable organization that is not a "mission", the absolute, overweening, ignorance based sense of superiority they feel for anyone not like them has serious implications for any country with a secular elected government.

Fundies, and increasingly "fundie-lights" have an entire separate, parallel system of education, books, music, TV, "news" outlets, "science"....really a person can spend the bulk of their lives away from any source of information that is not explicitly "Christian". How can a society continue in any democratic way when large swaths of the population don't "believe in", or have any respect for, the notion of a secular society and basic human rights? Who are in fact being educated in such a way as to make critical thinking impossible, and to believe human rights are a bad and unbiblical thing.

I look at the riots happening right now, and I see a very young, undereducated, underemployed population of men who have been raised in an expressly patriarchal, authoritarian way. They have been denied opportunities by their societies, and have found some meaning and outlet for their rage in following the ideas of radical religious leaders. The fact that those leaders and the people rioting happen to be Muslim and use that particular religion as a rallying point is irrelevant. In the 1930's in America, Father Coughlin and other Christian religious demagogs were able to stir up similar marches and riots during the great depression. I think if as a society we continue to ignore the growing population of undereducated, underemployed, religiously indoctrinated young people in this country, the US will soon have an awful lot more in common with countries like Yemen, Tunisia and Libya.

[Marian the Librarian]

Add me to the roster of those on the sad-angry continuum. My personal trigger is the parental "We micro-manage our childrens' lives from the moment of conception straight through to the moment of death" phenomenon. The roboticized, fakey-fakey, smiley-happy affect publically blogged by kids in isolationist families (Maxwells, Botkins) sucks the air right out of my lungs.

I believe that many of these situations spring from severe, untreated depression. It's so frustrating to think that appropriate treatment for depression could result in a radically different outcome for those children.

[Jana814]

I to feel sad for the kids being raised as Fundies. They have no freedom and no way of getting out. I have to say the ones I feel the worst for is the Maxwell kids. They have no choices in life they have no idea what they r missing!

[Rosa]

Honestly, I have recently come to the point where I not only feel sad, but guilty as well. As someone who struggles deeply with trying to erase my mind of all things fundie related, I keep slipping back from guilt and fear. I have issues when my children say or do things that are inappropriate (granted they are 2 and 1) and feeling like them misbehaving is my fault because fundie children are so "well behaved". My daughter is a free spirited little sprite, my son is a CARING, nurturing little boy, so the opposite of the gender roles forced in these circles. I struggle with getting dressed and wondering if I'm "defrauding" anyone. -_-. This lifestyle bleeds into every part of your life and the guilt is overwhelming, even when you think you are over it. I was only "in" for 4 years, but coming out has been a horrible spiritual struggle. I can't even imagine what the Duggar or Maxwell kids would face if they ever left...they have been indoctrinated since birth.

My partner & i were both raised by authoritarians and struggle with this - i've found the parenting stuff that Melissa at Permission to Live and Libby Anne at Love Joy Feminism post to be really helpful. Melissa posts lots of resources and links, too.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Someone posted way upthread how "it's a waste" - that pretty much sums up my feeling about what people like the Maxwells are doing. They waste their lives on nonsense. Period. It's terrible how they force the family into it, and how they must "shelter" so hard because they know if they don't their kids will find OUT it's all nonsense in fairly short order. I do feel badly for the kids forced into it, but on the other hand, they then happily foist their nonsense onto others and walk around feeling superior about themselves, so mostly what they make me feel is just angry.

Mostly I got into this "hobby" out of fascination for the various rules and minutiae of the lifestyle, and the dynamics of how the "society" works (or in the case of these newer fundies, be they Christian ATI or Reconstructionists in the VF circle, or kollel-above-all charedi, DOESN'T work).

As such I think pointing out just how the whole thing is inconsistent, in no way "traditional," and is in fact a radical new culture made up out of wholecloth by a few people is useful, if only for the comfort of ranting. So yes - every chance possible, point out how the parents in most of these extreme families weren't raised anything like this way (and that's the only reason they're able to support this first generation).

Probably what bugs me the most is some of the reactions from wider society, people looking at the surface and thinking that wow, these are such great people, because they're so religious. They're so "nice" and so we mustn't, mustn't ever offend them or mock them or point out how it's all a bunch of BS. Any time the groups meet and there must be compromise, well, the secular people are supposed to compromise and wear extra clothes or not let women speak on the program or whatever it is to protect the delicate sensibilities of the religious, and we're supposed to be okay with that because we're supposed to feel somehow deep down that those religious people are on a higher level than we are. Eff that.

So mostly yeah, I'm just some combination of mad and laughing, though I do feel badly for the kids being deprived of actual educations. Depriving people of education (including the ability to read freely) is my big issue.

[desertvixen]

I feel sad for the children and young adults who will miss so much in life and be stuck inside such a very small, dark little world. What I feel most is anger and fear for the future, because the wholesale rejection of science, modern medicine, schools, the complete contempt felt by them for our government institutions, courts, the constitution, unwillingness to serve in the military, peace corps, or any charitable organization that is not a "mission", the absolute, overweening, ignorance based sense of superiority they feel for anyone not like them has serious implications for any country with a secular elected government.

This, especially as the more fundie things sort of trickle down into mainstream Christianity. I feel bad for the people we talk about, at least the kids who have been forced into a life where this is what they know. But I'm a little more worried about what their beliefs mean for me.

How they think that women should never be able to have any control over their reproductive life other than keeping our legs shut (which they don't even have as an option for married women) or resorting to coathangers.

How they think it would be just peachy to provoke a war with another country because none of their precious children would be endangered by it, since none of them promote the idea of joining the military, just dressing up and playing war games.

How they think the public school system is evil. Daycare is evil. Women working is evil. Women controlling their lives essentially equals EVIL to them.

Fuck them. I'm a lapsed Catholic, birth control using, pro-choice, working single mother who thinks quality day care is one of the world's best inventions... and I vote.

[caito]

I go through a lot of emotions when it comes to these people. A lot of it is pure fascination. I'm so fascinated by different cultures and lifestyles, and I enjoy imagining how I would react if I was plucked up and placed in a different world.

I do get sad sometimes, especially when I think of how many kids these people are having, and the things they're teaching their kids. It's unrealistic to think all of these kids will break away from the fundie lifestyle. I feel sad because a lot of them will never know any different. There's so much art, joy, and love outside of religion, and a lot of people are afraid of it.

Then sometimes I get angry because I'm raising my child to be open-minded, and here these people are having 5+ kids and teaching them extremely close-minded things. I feel like I'm fighting a war I can't win. I want the world my daughter grows up in to be better than the one I grew up in. I want to see science, reason, and logic triumph over religion. I want my daughter to see that world, but I just don't know if it's possible.

[theologygeek]

I disagree with you about the adults. When your choices are taken away from you from birth, you become grown without really becoming an adult. You are groomed to second-guess any thought you have about independence or anything other than towing the party line. It's much like an abused spouse, IMO. It seems easy to say, "well, they ought to leave!" but when their spirit is crushed and they have no confidence left, they really believe they could not survive outside of that particlar relationship. Add that sort of Stockholm Syndrome to the threat of possibly destroying one's spiritual welfare and voila! You've got an adult who really can't make an informed decision.

I don't know if you ever read my post about the woman I knew who killed herself. But she was like a child in a woman's body. I always felt like I was talking to a child. Also, at times she showed how terrified she was of her father. Nothing I did could get her to leave and I tried everything.

[theologygeek]

I was watching some documentary on TV a while back about Stockholm syndrome. When they went through actions of the captures and the traits of the victims, the first thing that popped into my mind was the Maxwells. The descriptions fit them completely. I think it was reading Sarah's post where she thanked her parents for not allowing her to have friends was when I realized that the she was so far gone her ability to choose anything no longer exists.

Steve Maxwell is pure evil. He's cunning like a dictator and knows how to instill fear to brainwash. He does it to his family, and he does it in his God business to make money.

[mkitten]

Honestly, I laugh so I don't cry. It's sad and even worse because I am so powerless to help. I do tend to feel anger more than sadness though.

ETA: Also, hope helps me a lot. I think that's why speculation about kids escaping is popular here. Even Sarah Maxwell could hypothetically escape some day, especially after Steve dies. This high turnover rate gives me some hope that kids and grandkids will get freedom after the patriarchs start dying off.

This.

I get so pissed off watching the Duggars blather on and on about having another blessing, while their older kids who need love and attention and choices and dreams and normal and NOT "Journey to Your Gendered Destiny" or "Crush Your Spirit" camps have to listen about the next child they will get to raise.

(sorry, feeling a bit rant-y this morning)

I just really hope that the kids and young adults realize that this type of situation isn't normal and that they do have choices and that the rest of the world isn't as scary as they've been told, there's people like FJ who are awesome who will help!

[Jana814]

One thing that really makes me sad all of this is what it will continue generation after generation for example in the Maxwell family. Abby Maxwell can recite scripture but can she sing a children's song that is not about Jesus? She can probably now help w/ cleaning but will she have friends outside of her siblings that she can share secrets with?

[Mythicwings]

I haven't been posting lately. Yesterday I signed in but couldn't find the words to respond to any threads. Lately, I have been feeling very sad about the whole fundie thing. My kids are thriving and they have such a spark in their eyes. Big smiles, spunky spirits, traveling and visiting new places. In college, out of college and working, will be going to college, one is a parent. They never stop eating, they drive me crazy, and they are loud and boisterous except for the quiet one. These fundies pop out one kid after another and the kids have dead eyes. They can't have hopes and dreams because those are dashed early on in life. It wouldn't matter anyway with their sub par homeschooling that forces kids to never amount to anything in life. The Maxwells especially put me over the edge. Mary is so adorable and my heart breaks for her. And Sarah. Geez, I just want to cry when I read what she writes. Her eyes are dead and her spirit is broken. I can't even stalk the Andersons any more. Everything fundie is depressing me. Sweet and innocent babies are born into lives of mental and physical abuse at the hands of crazy parents who are extremists. Does the fundie stuff depress anyone else, or is it just me?

I'll catch up with this thread in a bit, but for now *HUG* yes, me too. I wasn't coming here for a while just because I needed to not have the triggers, on top of the automatic profound empathy for all of the kids growing up like that. And it will be hard for any of them to leave because they are their own community, they work and play together, go on mission trips together, it's a big support system even though it's fucked up. It's emotionally overwhelming sometimes and especially for people who group up fundie, watching the Duggars, reading fundie blogs, coming here, can be like "safe re-exposure" to heal, but it can end up holding healing back sometimes too. It's good to take breaks.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Then sometimes I get angry because I'm raising my child to be open-minded, and here these people are having 5+ kids and teaching them extremely close-minded things. I feel like I'm fighting a war I can't win. I want the world my daughter grows up in to be better than the one I grew up in. I want to see science, reason, and logic triumph over religion. I want my daughter to see that world, but I just don't know if it's possible.

That's why it's important to pop that bubble whenever possible. Put that first crack in the armor.

Someone might have 5+ close-minded kids, but in a lot of cases they won't be so sheltered that they never get out into the world - and when they do, hopefully we've maintained some sense in the public sphere so that the nonsense isn't catered to. None of this "teach the controversy" BS. No tiptoeing around the question of Santa Claus.

And definitely none of the "I should get a pass for being a bigot because my religion requires it" nonsense. If people want to be bigots, they should own that opinion and suffer the consequences for it. Religion is a choice. Within a religion, how fundie you want to to go is a choice.

If anything, take comfort in the idea that perhaps certain groups feel the need to have 10+ children because they know they can't win over many "outsider" children on the strength of their movements' ideas. Increasing population from the inside is their only real way to go, where they can shelter from birth and try to prevent their kids ever seeing anything that might make them question, because they know damn well as soon as the kids question it's all over.

The Maxwells are pretty extreme in their level of sheltering (which is why they are interesting to my "peel up a rock, see what's underneath" fascination). They know they have to be, because if they let slip, their kids will find out stuff. Most fundies don't take it quite to that level, but even the Maxwells I'm not so sure they will be able to keep a second generation so sheltered. I think it will be very interesting to see what happens when Steve-O eventually dies. If nothing else, they've only got two kids married so far, and four grandchildren.

[Markie]

I, too, feel sad about the fundies' lives. They would not appreciate my sadness - probably scorn it. I also wonder how many non-blogging families like the Maxwells, or worse, are out there. I find myself looking for fundies when I am out, and trying to figure out where they might fit in the Fundy Spectrum.

Their lack of education and years of built up fear of the general population, will hold many into the roles assigned for them. Even if Smugs wanted to be a lawyer at one time, the odds are so stacked against him that he won't even be able to try.

I actually fear for the next generation. PP and ZsuZsu are 'training up" little racist, violent haters. They are little kids now and to be expected to believe what their parents tell them and the distorted things they show them. I can totally see many of their ilk to go postal.

[twin2]

Steve Maxwell is pure evil. He's cunning like a dictator and knows how to instill fear to brainwash. He does it to his family, and he does it in his God business to make money.

On the hierarchy fundie headship evil, Michael Pearl is number one, and Steve Maxwell is number two. What he has done to that family is horrid. What he accomplishes with emotional, and psychological manipulation is akin to what Pearls accomplish with plumbing line (though I would not rule out "tools of correction" with the Maxwells). What makes Steve a bit scarier, is that he is able package his brand of crazy up in a much nicer box and pretty bow. People look at the shinny blog, with all the smiling faces and think "gee this guy is on to something good". They don't dig deep enough to see how horrid it all is.

[browngrl]

This is a quote that I often remind myself of : "you can not do great things, you can only do small things with great love". When I get depressed about how impotent and small my efforts are I remind myself that even if I can't fix a problem I can usually find a way to do something - even if only a small thing - and for me that is comforting. When I see the Republicans/fundamentalists push forward agendas that I find hateful, I know that I don't have much power on my own to do anything but if I can help teach my young cousins/nieces/nephews/other children I am around to be fair,honest and kind then I have done something. I don't pretend that any comment I make will change anything - but perhaps by having a forum like FJ - someone trapped in a fundie lifestyle will see there is another way. So, yes, I do sometimes feel sad but then I remind myself that small things do matter and no one knows all ends - perhaps some small action/word of mine will start a cascade that will make a significant change.

[jaynie]

I'm another on the sad-angry scale. Mostly I just feel sad for them, though. The only fundies I don't feel sad for at all are the ones who come across as outright controlling psychopaths (like the Pearls and Steve Maxwell), because they're really doing it all for their own gain. But I do feel sorry for Zsu sometimes, even though she is pretty hateful, because she's obviously unhappy and could have been OK in a different life. And I do feel sorry for Michelle because I really think she's gone a bit wrong in her mind, and I feel sorry for Josh because he's acting exactly like a young teenager given the first taste of freedom and it's so obvious his repressive childhood has caused that. That doesn't excuse these people for being abusive assholes though, and I'd side with their innocent children over them and day. I guess it's a sliding scale of pity.

I feel sorriest for the stuck kids though. The Sarah Maxwells of the fundie world who will probably never be free because they've been taught to fear and obey, and the Mary Maxwells who are too young and sheltered to realize how trapped they are, and the Joy Duggars who might want out but who will have a huge struggle to actually make that happen, and the Jingers who are letting that dream of freedom die because it's too much to deal with. I feel sorry for the un-maternal girls and the un-macho guys who are never given a chance to develop their real potential because it doesn't fit the image. I feel especially sorry for the closeted ones, because there have to be some even though we can't know who, and that has to be hell. And I totally get those who say that's why the escape fantasies for the kids are common. It's a lot less heartbreaking to look at a clip of Duggar girls talking about how wonderful courtship is if one of them looks pissed off at the whole thing, because then it stops being "look at how brainwashed and limited these girls are" and becomes "look at how unconvinced Joy is! Run Joy! Make us proud!" Hope is a much better feeling than dismay.

[freejoytoo]

I feel depressed when I talk to other people about misogyny in daily life and none of them seem to take it seriously and think it's a thing of the past. I went on a forum and posted about stuff like this and the result is that the people knew nothing about feminism and nor do they care. It's like the fundies inadvertently have people in their corner.