Maxwell fantasy: What would happen if...

[eeemkaaayy]

This is EXACTLY why Steve is reluctant to allow Sarah to marry (and will hold tight onto Mary and Anna). A headship may well decide he's had enough of The Steve and tell him to shove it, then take the daughter away to live a life far different than the one she lives now. Or in the case of the reversal daughters, a life they've never known, you know, with PEOPLE and everything!

This so much. That man is such a control freak. I feel so bad for his children, especially the daughters. The older ones must have some faint memory of when life was normal. I'd feel so humiliated if I was 30 and living at home. I hope they all get married and realize how screwed up their family is. Hell, I'd be happy if they went from extreme fundie to just fundie.

[Hane]

LOL, indeed. Ironically enough, we are one of the least religious countries on the planet, actually - and if a Maxwell ever moves here I'll be at the airport with confetti and pom poms, I swear to FSM!

By coincidence, I was reading last night about the Czech Republic*, and was surprised to learn how secular it was in comparison with its old "partner," Slovakia.

*I had to look it up on Wikipedia because a character on Breaking Bad wanted to expand Walt's crystal meth trade to the Czech Republic, where she claimed 5% of the population were users, and I wanted to find out what the population of the Czech Republic is. Don't judge me.

[CrazySister]

This is EXACTLY why Steve is reluctant to allow Sarah to marry (and will hold tight onto Mary and Anna). A headship may well decide he's had enough of The Steve and tell him to shove it, then take the daughter away to live a life far different than the one she lives now. Or in the case of the reversal daughters, a life they've never known, you know, with PEOPLE and everything!

His sons are bred to believe they're supporting The Cult of Steve in some way and are far less likely to "allow" a rebellion from their wives, much less move away from their revenue stream. Joseph should be smart enough to know he could run his internet business from anywhere; a mile from Steve is still within his clutches. He would have to move to a place that would require a trip Uriah couldn't make, like the Czech Republic or something.

This is exactly why I don't think any of the girls will ever marry as long as they stay under Steve's thumb. What would a man would have to be like in order to be permitted to court any of the girls? I mean, I can't imagine Steve would even allow somebody as repulsive as the PP to court his girls!

[bananacat]

I don't see a rebellion going well. A common tactic of abuse is birth control sabotage. If Melanie rebelled, Nathan would likely yell and possibly become violent. If he seemed to tolerate it at first, he would probably secretly sabotage any attempt at birth control that he was aware of. Maybe Melanie could secretly get and IUD or the birth control shot at a free clinic, but that wouldn't really count as rebellion if she never told anyone. The truth is that she knows that she has no power and Nathan could cut her off from his money at any moment. That's sort of the point of Patriarchy - to make women completely dependent on men. Melanie has no money, so she couldn't buy a tv. If she used the food budget or something that Nathan lets her use, then he would probably refuse to give her extra money for food and would make her choose between returning the tv or making her kids go hungry. If she tried this often enough he could simply exercise tighter control over the money that is legally his. Although he probably wouldn't divorce her, he could threaten it and then she'd have nothing because she is completely dependent on him. The control is so tight to make sure that women have no chance of rebellion except for all-or-nothing, staying at a shelter, and possibly losing custody of their kids.

I know what psychological abuse is like and I can't fantasize about this type of thing because the reality would be far more disappointing than most of you realize.

[CrazySister]

I don't see a rebellion going well. A common tactic of abuse is birth control sabotage. If Melanie rebelled, Nathan would likely yell and possibly become violent. If he seemed to tolerate it at first, he would probably secretly sabotage any attempt at birth control that he was aware of. Maybe Melanie could secretly get and IUD or the birth control shot at a free clinic, but that wouldn't really count as rebellion if she never told anyone. The truth is that she knows that she has no power and Nathan could cut her off from his money at any moment. That's sort of the point of Patriarchy - to make women completely dependent on men. Melanie has no money, so she couldn't buy a tv. If she used the food budget or something that Nathan lets her use, then he would probably refuse to give her extra money for food and would make her choose between returning the tv or making her kids go hungry. If she tried this often enough he could simply exercise tighter control over the money that is legally his. Although he probably wouldn't divorce her, he could threaten it and then she'd have nothing because she is completely dependent on him. The control is so tight to make sure that women have no chance of rebellion except for all-or-nothing, staying at a shelter, and possibly losing custody of their kids.

I know what psychological abuse is like and I can't fantasize about this type of thing because the reality would be far more disappointing than most of you realize.

Friends I've had who've come out of abusive relationships, the fear of losing their kids is the primary reason they stayed as long as they did. Sadly, if Mel were to leave, I'm sure Steve would use every cent he has to keep her from getting custody or even having visitation rights. I'm sure he'd lie to the girls and do everything in his power to turn the girls away from Mel, too. It's a special kinda hell they live in.

[Hane]

Friends I've had who've come out of abusive relationships, the fear of losing their kids is the primary reason they stayed as long as they did. Sadly, if Mel were to leave, I'm sure Steve would use every cent he has to keep her from getting custody or even having visitation rights. I'm sure he'd lie to the girls and do everything in his power to turn the girls away from Mel, too. It's a special kinda hell they live in.

Sisters, you are entirely correct. The flaw in my "fantasy" is the fact that I tend to think of these folks as fictitious characters whom I can manipulate in my mind. I should have known better, as a charter member of one of the first domestic violence task forces in my state. A deputy mayor's wife stayed in the marriage and endured being slapped around because she was afraid of the "shame" she'd have to live with if she'd left. And the poorer women we met had it even worse.

[YPestis]

For these women to leave their relationships, they would need to plan way ahead. This means documenting their daily lives, documenting any abusive situations, finding alternative living arrangements and financial support. The last portion is extremely hard for fundie women as they are trained to avoid education and careers.

That said, I don't think losing custody of their children is common as long as they can prove that they are good caretakers. Family courts have traditionally favored women and primary caretakers in custody cases. My fear is financial insolvency for these women after the divorce. Most will have few means of support. Even with a generous husband, most single mothers struggle financially. The courts will award alimony and child support with the idea that the mother will get a job. Fundie women were not trained to have serious jobs or to be providers. They would have to start from scratch....with kids in tow. I can see how these fundie relationships can turn into jail sentences. Most will stay because they are conditioned to fear life without a husband. Even if they want to escape, it's so incredibly difficult with children. That's why I think few fundie women will ever leave their husbands. They will be forced to raise children in that cult and perpetuate this cycle of ignorance and poverty.

[nimerha]

By coincidence, I was reading last night about the Czech Republic*, and was surprised to learn how secular it was in comparison with its old "partner," Slovakia.

*I had to look it up on Wikipedia because a character on Breaking Bad wanted to expand Walt's crystal meth trade to the Czech Republic, where she claimed 5% of the population were users, and I wanted to find out what the population of the Czech Republic is. Don't judge me.

Sorry everyone for derailing the thread, but I can't pass this :)

It's funny, isn't it? Slovakia was always more religious than us, but 20th century basically made them more catholic than ever, whilst it pushed this entire country into agnosticism or atheism. Also, not to be discounted that people had always been much wealthier (relatively speaking) and less tied to the land here, so a much larger proportion left the country due to religious persecution under communism. What Jewish population survived the war, fled the country after - outside of Prague there is absolutely none.

(basically what it is, though, that the coupling of Czech Republic and Slovakia was just a political move to get SOME kind of independence after WWI, strength in numbers kinda thing. The entire "sister nations" spiel was a big fat lie, and aside from the language similarities, the countries didn't have very much in common when Czechoslovakia was formed)

And I looked up the actual number of crystal users: according to the government 2011 drug report, which seems pretty trustworthy to me, they are about 70% of hard users (the other 30% is on opiates) at 28k, which is about 0.25% of the population. Not that I thought you believed that quoted claim, but, you know. Just to set the record straight :)

[Hane]

Sorry everyone for derailing the thread, but I can't pass this :)

It's funny, isn't it? Slovakia was always more religious than us, but 20th century basically made them more catholic than ever, whilst it pushed this entire country into agnosticism or atheism. Also, not to be discounted that people had always been much wealthier (relatively speaking) and less tied to the land here, so a much larger proportion left the country due to religious persecution under communism. What Jewish population survived the war, fled the country after - outside of Prague there is absolutely none.

(basically what it is, though, that the coupling of Czech Republic and Slovakia was just a political move to get SOME kind of independence after WWI, strength in numbers kinda thing. The entire "sister nations" spiel was a big fat lie, and aside from the language similarities, the countries didn't have very much in common when Czechoslovakia was formed)

And I looked up the actual number of crystal users: according to the government 2011 drug report, which seems pretty trustworthy to me, they are about 70% of hard users (the other 30% is on opiates) at 28k, which is about 0.25% of the population. Not that I thought you believed that quoted claim, but, you know. Just to set the record straight :)

Thanks, nimerha! I knew about the various ways countries were stuck together and split apart in Europe, usually in the wake of wars, and that the Czech and Slovak regions weren't a natural "fit" for each other. I had a half-Slovak boyfriend in college, whose grandfather--or was it great-uncle?--was the Prime Minister of the Carpatho-Ukraine. (There was a grandfather and a great-uncle, Fedir and Yulian Revay--not sure which was which.) He told me quite emphatically that the Czechs and the Slovaks are two distinct peoples. When the elders in the family told the kids that Yulian had been the prime minister of a country that lasted about a year, the kids all thought that it was a family joke.

Oh, and the 5% of "meth-head" Czechs? That number was dreamed up by a character who worked in marketing, where exaggeration is the law.

I now end the Queen Goddess Empress of all FJ thread derailments.