No Handsex !!

[FundiesInMyFamily]

Was just reading over at TWOP, and someone quoted Kelly Bates as saying that Zach & his intended will not be holding hands during their courtship and engagement. They want to keep the "specialness of holding hands" special for marriage. And of course the kids chose this themelves after much prayer and discussion.

I feel terrible for any girl who must marry a stranger that she has never held hands with, never hugged, never had alone time with or had any private discussions with. You can't just pick someone out of a crowd, point and say "God wants me to marry her".

[masagoroll]

LMAO, "the specialness of holding hands." Preschool children hold hands all the time. Are they defrauding their future spouses???

What about churches where people hold hands to pray in a prayer circle? Is that like an ORGY?

[homeschoolmomma1]

LMAO, "the specialness of holding hands." Preschool children hold hands all the time. Are they defrauding their future spouses???

What about churches where people hold hands to pray in a prayer circle? Is that like an ORGY?

:clap: You made me laugh this morning. Good thing I didn't have my cup of coffee this morning :dance:

[Smooth Beans]

LMAO, "the specialness of holding hands." Preschool children hold hands all the time. Are they defrauding their future spouses???

What about churches where people hold hands to pray in a prayer circle? Is that like an ORGY?

I just spat iced tea all over my monitor! :lol:

I wonder how many other young fundie couples will no longer be able to hold hands after all the handsex Smuggar and Anna indulged in...

[Koala]

take note Jim Bob and Michelle...you have just been one upped

[demgirl]

This constant re-upping of demonstrations of holiness and purity and godliness and the rest is simply inane. What's next? We kept two feet away from each other until we married! We put a curtain between us when we met in person before we married! We only spoke on the telephone before we married and all four of our parents, the leader of our home church and Doug Phillips were on the telephone extensions with us! Well, we only communicated by letters that were carefully screened by our parents, Bill Gothard, the full compliment of Vision Forum Interns, and all of my 15 siblings! Oh yeah, well we never bothered to talk at all before marriage -- it was totally arranged by our parents -- in fact, we didn't even get married in the same room, but did it by intercom!

[ophelia]

This constant re-upping of demonstrations of holiness and purity and godliness and the rest is simply inane. What's next? We kept two feet away from each other until we married! We put a curtain between us when we met in person before we married! We only spoke on the telephone before we married and all four of our parents, the leader of our home church and Doug Phillips were on the telephone extensions with us! Well, we only communicated by letters that were carefully screened by our parents, Bill Gothard, the full compliment of Vision Forum Interns, and all of my 15 siblings! Oh yeah, well we never bothered to talk at all before marriage -- it was totally arranged by our parents -- in fact, we didn't even get married in the same room, but did it by intercom!

Great!!! The best part of my day so far... :D

[apple1]

Was just reading over at TWOP, and someone quoted Kelly Bates as saying that Zach & his intended will not be holding hands during their courtship and engagement. They want to keep the "specialness of holding hands" special for marriage.

Didn't I just post something in another thread about STUPIDITY? Maybe I should edit that post and add

keep the "specialness of holding hands" special for marriage

Exactly how stupid can it get?

[Guest Anonymous]

This constant re-upping of demonstrations of holiness and purity and godliness and the rest is simply inane. What's next? We kept two feet away from each other until we married! We put a curtain between us when we met in person before we married! We only spoke on the telephone before we married and all four of our parents, the leader of our home church and Doug Phillips were on the telephone extensions with us! Well, we only communicated by letters that were carefully screened by our parents, Bill Gothard, the full compliment of Vision Forum Interns, and all of my 15 siblings! Oh yeah, well we never bothered to talk at all before marriage -- it was totally arranged by our parents -- in fact, we didn't even get married in the same room, but did it by intercom!

It's a spiritual arms race. At least they're not using real munitions.

[Patsy]

*sigh* I don't understand this ludicrous upping of displays. No sex before marriage is a pretty established standard in general and in Christian culture, in western society, so sure, keep those, particularly if you're conservative. There is NO good reason to put it any further. Sure, husbands and wives kiss. They also go grocery shopping, fart in front of one another, ask 'What do you want for dinner, babe?' and say 'I love you'. Why not say courting couples can't do that? Or, shit, seeing as siblings can hold hands, the fact that siblings do X is no longer reason to allow it between courting couples (e.g. Josh and Anna can side-hug but not kiss), so I guess you're no longer allowed to make eye contact or talk to one another, either. It's ridiculous. There is at least a suggestion about female virginity before marriage in the Bible, there's nothing about kissing.

[fundiefan]

*sigh* I don't understand this ludicrous upping of displays. No sex before marriage is a pretty established standard in general and in Christian culture, in western society, so sure, keep those, particularly if you're conservative. There is NO good reason to put it any further. Sure, husbands and wives kiss. They also go grocery shopping, fart in front of one another, ask 'What do you want for dinner, babe?' and say 'I love you'. Why not say courting couples can't do that? Or, shit, seeing as siblings can hold hands, the fact that siblings do X is no longer reason to allow it between courting couples (e.g. Josh and Anna can side-hug but not kiss), so I guess you're no longer allowed to make eye contact or talk to one another, either. It's ridiculous. There is at least a suggestion about female virginity before marriage in the Bible, there's nothing about kissing.

I lose track of the crazy, but wasn't there a fundie royalty courtship story where it was emphasized that the guy never said 'I love you' to his intended? And that was considered a good thing? Something about not having emotions or letting them control the courtship or something like that to keep their hearts pure and the focus on god or other absurd BS?

Don't touch. Six inches rule (or more). No sex. No kissing. No saying I love you. No being alone together. Oh, but you're to marry and make babies for god, starting on the wedding night.

[ChunkyBarbie]

All this one upping is Pride and Vanity, at the sake of their children no less. I wish Jesus would drop kick some of these dumb ass parents. The young couple can't even hold hands, may not even really like/love each other and on their wedding night go from-0 to baby making. WTF? Let's not forget that many of these kids have no clue how things work. Can you imagine your wedding night with no sexual knowledge, and the only penis you have seen belonged on the baby brother you have changed? Even if your told all your life sex is a speshul and beautiful thing God gave us, the reality of it can make a poor innocent go,"huh?' that can't be right!"

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I lose track of the crazy, but wasn't there a fundie royalty courtship story where it was emphasized that the guy never said 'I love you' to his intended? And that was considered a good thing? Something about not having emotions or letting them control the courtship or something like that to keep their hearts pure and the focus on god or other absurd BS?

Yup, that was Peter Bradrick. He also didn't tell Kelly that she was beautiful. Because he totally didn't notice... :roll:

[forever ago]

All this one upping is Pride and Vanity, at the sake of their children no less. I wish Jesus would drop kick some of these dumb ass parents. The young couple can't even hold hands, may not even really like/love each other and on their wedding night go from-0 to baby making. WTF? Let's not forget that many of these kids have no clue how things work. Can you imagine your wedding night with no sexual knowledge, and the only penis you have seen belonged on the baby brother you have changed? Even if your told all your life sex is a speshul and beautiful thing God gave us, the reality of it can make a poor innocent go,"huh?' that can't be right!"

I've just started to wonder just how many of these 'pure' marriages are consummated that night. My guess is not that many, since nerves would make it horribly painful for the girl, if the guy could even get it up! Going from 0 to baby-making is a horrible thing to force on your children. It's unnatural. Not even any hugging! Is hugging really that bad?!

[nolongerIFBx]

I don't believe this is one-up-man-ship. It was very surprising to me that Josh and Anna were allowed to hold hands. In the fundie culture I grew up in there was a "6-inch rule" and that meant no physical contact. The Bates are just following the norm for their culture.

This is based on 1 Corintians 7:1- "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." That's the King James Version which most fundies read. NASB is similar- "Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman." BUT the NIV reads- "Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.†and the ESV reads- "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." That's a world of difference!

Context! This whole chapter is Paul saying he wished that everyone was able to remain unmarried and celibate like him. He thought it was better- "it is good". But he acknowledges that not very many people are able to live that way- vs. 9- "But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." He goes on to say just at least make sure you're only having sex with your own spouse, not someone else's and not with someone you're not married to.

This is where being able to read koine Greek would come in handy because "don't touch" and "don't have sex" are way different translations.

[demgirl]

They must be consummated pretty quickly given the abundance of honeymoon babies these people produce.

I love how Paul was like, "We should all be celibate!" He did not understand Dominionism AT ALL. Also, apparently he also didn't understand that Jesus was down with the married folk. I love Paul -- half the time it's like he's talking about a totally different religion.

[Patsy]

Pretty sure there are versions that say "It is good for a man not to marry", or somesuch. So if people bothered to actually look at a verse before they ordered their kids to do something based on it, they should realise what it actually means. I don't think it's the sort of verse where interpretations would vary. It's pretty obviously about remaining single.

[Deleted05]

I don't believe this is one-up-man-ship. It was very surprising to me that Josh and Anna were allowed to hold hands. In the fundie culture I grew up in there was a "6-inch rule" and that meant no physical contact. The Bates are just following the norm for their culture.

This is based on 1 Corintians 7:1- "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." That's the King James Version which most fundies read. NASB is similar- "Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman." BUT the NIV reads- "Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.†and the ESV reads- "Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman." That's a world of difference!

Context! This whole chapter is Paul saying he wished that everyone was able to remain unmarried and celibate like him. He thought it was better- "it is good". But he acknowledges that not very many people are able to live that way- vs. 9- "But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." He goes on to say just at least make sure you're only having sex with your own spouse, not someone else's and not with someone you're not married to.

This is where being able to read koine Greek would come in handy because "don't touch" and "don't have sex" are way different translations.

I was always told that "to touch a woman" was a euphemism for touching in a sexual way. Has nothing to do with holding hands, or giving a hug, etc.

[nolongerIFBx]

I was always told that "to touch a woman" was a euphemism for touching in a sexual way. Has nothing to do with holding hands, or giving a hug, etc.

I agree. I'm just saying that one verse is taken and applied literally without taking into consideration the context which would explain that he didn't mean literally touch but sexually touch.

Of course then where do you draw the line on what is sexual touching? Were Josh and Anna touching in a sexual way when they held hands? :twisted:

[Jessica]

What I have always wanted to know is why they think the verse, as they interpret it, only applies to engaged couples. Don't they shake hands with their pastors, friends, friends' parents, etc? Why is it okay for Zach Bates to shake hands with Michelle or Jana Duggar but not hold hands with, or put the engagement ring on Sarah Reith? Why is it suddenly bad to touch because they're courting/engaged?

[pimpom]

Gnaaaargh! I'm sorry, but I DO believe this is totally one-upmanship if ever I saw it. If this continues, I predict that in a few years' time all the 'top-fundies' will not even know eachothers' name before they get married! That's how to be Properly Pure!

At the same time it reminds me of the Jewish concept/practice of Shomer Negiah, but though the same in its execution, is actually based on the idea that a menstruating woman is unclean, but since you can't know when each and every woman is having her period, it's safer to not touch them alltogether.

[Rhetorica]

Gnaaaargh! I'm sorry, but I DO believe this is totally one-upmanship if ever I saw it. If this continues, I predict that in a few years' time all the 'top-fundies' will not even know eachothers' name before they get married! That's how to be Properly Pure!

At the same time it reminds me of the Jewish concept/practice of Shomer Negiah, but though the same in its execution, is actually based on the idea that a menstruating woman is unclean, but since you can't know when each and every woman is having her period, it's safer to not touch them alltogether.

ITA. I also thought of the examples of Jewish extremism (pharisees) that many Christians love to cite as examples of legalism--men whose faces are black and blue from running into walls thanks to their insistence on covering their eyes lest they see a woman. (Thankfully Christianity has been spared such ridiculous legalism. )

[IReallyAmHopewell]

This constant re-upping of demonstrations of holiness and purity and godliness and the rest is simply inane.

Agreed, but TAKE THAT! Smug, defrauding Josh & Anna!!! hahahaah

Anything you can do, we can do better!

[3 is enough]

The minute I heard that Zach and Sarah were going to refrain from holding hands, I could hear Gil and Kelly saying, "Fuck you, Jim Bob and Michelle! We're holier than YOU!!!"

Isn't this escalating one-upmanship the polar opposite of how true Christians are supposed to behave?

[forever ago]

I think that Kelly just doesn't want to see her little babies ALL GROWN UP, and has a hair up her butt that Jimboob and Ofjimboob are fine with their kids being all grown up, holding hands and courting and things. THINK OF THE CHILDREN, JIMBOOB! THINK OF THEIR INNOCENCE!