No Handsex !!

[3 is enough]

Did Mrs. Bates get permission to share this info? I would be quite upset if my mother was sharing private matters about my relationship on public websites.

That's the point. Until marriage, there IS no privacy. They also read all incoming text messages from Sarah as a family. That poor couple can't even have a private conversation.

[DamnPrecious]

The first time I kissed someone I was 13. I was 17 when I gave away my oral purity (that's as delitcate as I get lol). 20 The whole shebang. We dated for 5 months first. I think I waited waaay longer than all these fundies. They meet, court, and marry within this time frame.

[mythoughtis]

Well, if we want to follow the verse.... why don't we just eliminate marriage and sex since Paul said it was better to be celibate? Oh, wait, that was the Shakers and they all died out...!

These people pick and choose what parts to follow, just like everyone else. However, the average Christian makes these choices primarily on what makes sense today, and usually from the New Testament. For example, no slaves, no multiple wives, it's ok to work on Sunday, dating is great!, who cares about dietary restrictions (we have stoves, pasteurizing, refrigerators and freezers), etc.

[ophelia]

To me it seems like there isn't really a guideline for the ATI fundies. We saw Anna and Josh and that nasty handsex thing. Now there is Zach and Sarah and they have the six inch rule, but Robert and Kendalyn who are also ATI even hugged before their marriage and not only these awkward side hugs. It's really pick and choose, isn't it?

Another thing is that crazy Bradrick-Brown courtship? It was forbidden for Pete to say I love you??? Whats so wrong with that? And was it his idea or Papa Brown's??

And last: do you remember the wedding special for Anna and Smuggar? They showed them having their wedding pictures before the ceremony and on their pictures they KISS? Whats going on there????? Or do I remember wrong?

[Jessica]

(0:58) Almost!

[ophelia]

yeah but there are also the wedding pictures from the beach that you see on their website. they weren't made at their wedding day, because Annas hair has that ugly style there and at her wedding she looked pretty cute I must admit. But maybe they were made afterwards, when kissing was already allowed!

[bananacat]

I remember reading online once that there's some culture that thinks it's corruption to actually touch your spouse anywhere other than necessary while having sex, and that you can't see them, so they make babies through having sex through a hole in the sheet.

That's probably what's next.

I'm pretty sure that this was a propaganda myth made up about various groups in the past (most notable Jews) as a way to make them look bad.

[clarinetpower]

http://www.snopes.com/religion/sheet.asp

[FundiesInMyFamily]

Another thing is that crazy Bradrick-Brown courtship? It was forbidden for Pete to say I love you???

I have read on some blogs that until they are actually engaged and/or married, couples in some circles are not supposed to fall in love with their intended (translated - give away pieces of their heart). They are supposed to get to know one another, pray a whole lot, counsel w/ Daddy, but not lean their heart that way.

I know its fictional, but this totally reminds me of Nikki from Big Love - she didn't marry Bill for love, she married for 'the principle' because she thought that was the way heavenly father wanted it... she had a big freak out in the last season because she realized she actually had fallen in love with him.

[Piper]

Okay, if the Duggars allow touching (hand sex), and the Bates don't allow it, I wonder what the "rules" will be, if a Duggar and a Bates offspring want to begin a courtship. :roll:

[BlackHawk]

The first time I kissed someone I was 13. I was 17 when I gave away my oral purity (that's as delitcate as I get lol). 20 The whole shebang. We dated for 5 months first. I think I waited waaay longer than all these fundies. They meet, court, and marry within this time frame.

Oral purity is the funniest damn thing I've heard tonight! I was a boring gay.. guess I still am. I was 24 when I had my first kiss, 25 at oral purity and purity... and I'm 26.. so in reality... I got none as a kid. I did watch the kid down the street jack off once... but I then told him he was killing kittens. I think was 7 or 8. Ohh I did hold hands with a boy at school I thought was hot.. does that count?

[HowRude]

My mom won't let me hug boyfriends front of her and I'm 21 years old so any guy I bring home we have to pretend to hate( each other (or so she thinks).I feel like its so dumb because I have to hug creepy guys I never met in my life at church. I feel bad for Zach hand holding is extreme and totally innocent. Its not like something you could be proud to say that you've never done before like sex and in some circles kissing. Not holding hands is weird, if you cannot comfortably hold someones hand can you imagine how awkward the wedding night will be or living together gives me the heebie jeebies.

[Aurora]

Heh heh, "oral purity". :lol:

[forever ago]

http://www.snopes.com/religion/sheet.asp

For Jews yes it's made up, but I swear I have a friend who knows a lot of crazy-ass fundies who actually do this. The only time sexual parts are to be viewed is when a mother is changing a baby's diaper. I only heard about this a year or so ago, so my memory may be fuzzy.

[ophelia]

Okay, if the Duggars allow touching (hand sex), and the Bates don't allow it, I wonder what the "rules" will be, if a Duggar and a Bates offspring want to begin a courtship. :roll:

Maybe they are allowed to hold hands in Arkansas and whenever they meet in Tennessee they have to follow the 6 inch rule,

But who knows.. if there really ever is going to be a Bates / Duggar courtship the couple might pray about it with their parents and God tells them that now it's ok to hold hands!

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Okay, if the Duggars allow touching (hand sex), and the Bates don't allow it, I wonder what the "rules" will be, if a Duggar and a Bates offspring want to begin a courtship. :roll:

Here's my guess: IF such a courtship occurs (or IS going on) then they can only visit by Skype on a computer screen in front of as much of the family as is home at the time. They would have to stay home (or with another ATI family) if there was a "fellowshipping" visit since they'd be too close!!

I wonder though if it isn't wishful thinking that one of the Duggars/Bates would pair off. After all, how many parents & friends have hoped their kids would marry each other? How often does it really work out that way!!

[Avalondaughter]

You know what? In a weird way, I can see the appeal.

I've always been a huge fan of Chaim Potok novels. He tended to view Orthodox and Hasidic Judaism through rose-colored glasses, making the worst of them just repressive, but never really abusive.

In his novel "The Promise" modern Orthodox Reuven has a girlfriend at the beginning of the novel and they seem to have a normal boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. However, she finds herself intrigued, and falling hard for, Reuven's best friend Danny, a man living in a secular world, with Hasidic beliefs. He wants to date her as well, but they have to play by his rules. When they begin dating he asks her point blank if she is a virgin. She actually respects him for it because she admires his devotion. They date. During the time they date they never touch. Still, during their time there seems to be this enormous sense of intimacy between them. They have deep and important conversations. Reuven observes them at one point, sitting next to each other, but never touching. Yet there is this enormous closeness. Danny clearly wants this woman's mind long before he wants her body.

I was a teenager and still a virgin at the time and I thought it was the most romantic thing ever. I started thinking about how much one could deepen the emotional connection in a relationship if you took all of the sex out of it.

It was a novel of course, and probably totally unrealistic. I doubt Potok himself never kissed a girl before he married. Still, at the time I think I longed to connect so much with a boyfriend. I'd have gladly waited for marriage if I could have such a deep connection to a guy.

Maybe in the end this is what the fundies envision as well? Granted, Danny is much less sexist than the fundies or his Hasidic counterparts, but maybe this is the ideal they are all shooting for?

Just a thought.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

In the Potok novels I remember Rueven being interested in Danny's sister and being told to forget it, she'd been engaged since way back when. I wonder if this happens to QF/P kids if they express an interest?

[nutella addict]

[This is what happens when i de-lurk. I actually start answering! Oh no, I'll never get work done at this rate!]

I personally find the 6-inch rule extreme and suspect it makes everything else, especially touching, more tempting. That is going to be one loooong wedding night. First they have to hold hands and touch, and then kiss, then realize that they can kiss with tongue, then consider *gasp* taking off clothing!

My high school friends and I were a mixed batch of religions and devotion to those religions, and yet only ONE of us had sex in high school, and all but one of those of us who have since were all dating for at least three years or so first, and are marrying those guys. But hand-holding, kissing on the cheek, making-out, 2nd base, 3rd base? All fair game. Maybe that's why we can all get our degrees before rushing off to make babies, because we didn't restrict ourselves so much.

In college my way-more-evangelical/conservative-than-me Bible study leader told me my boyfriend shouldn't sleep in my apartment (when visiting from 500 miles away...) and that we should stop kissing because it could lead to temptation. Guess what? Not kissing led to WAY more temptation than anything else we'd been doing. Hmmmm. Also has it not occurred to them that "touch" may have meant "sexually touch" or was maybe just a warning against adultery?

My good old NIV Bible also points out "If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married." I reckon a bit of hand-holding and kissing is far from "acting improperly" but even if they do, ta-da, all they have to do is get married. Oh wait, they were already planning on that...

Oh, and I definitely believe hand-holding, hugs, and kisses on the cheek are fair game for any of my friends, not just my boyfriend...

[deelaem]

My good old NIV Bible also points out "If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to marry,he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get married."

Does your good old NIV Bible give the woman any choice in the matter?

[nutella addict]

Does your good old NIV Bible give the woman any choice in the matter?

Well, this particular sentence Paul is addressing the men, hence the man's side of things, however even Paul, talking to a patriarchal society, doesn't completely eliminate the woman's choice, so I'd argue, yes, even the Bible gives women a choice. Also I just realized I forgot to say *where* that quote is from, it's 1 Corinthians 7:36. If you look at the rest of the chapter, you'll see Paul gives almost the exact same instructions to both men and women - in my opinion it's one of the most equal parts of the Bible, and definitely so in terms of the historical context. He says to the "unmarried and the widows" - both sexes - "It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (also 1 Corinthians 7: 8-9) Also, if we spend too long nit-picking just one set of instructions from the entire Bible, it's just going to get silly, so please nobody start arguing that clearly the Bible says marriage is only for sex, because this is not a full picture of the rest of the instructions.

This is also the chapter that annoys me a lot when it comes to fundie patriarchs...right after the bit that the wife's body belongs to the husband it says, in the same verse, "In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife." As far as I'm concerned that just screams "YOU ARE EQUAL, MORONS!"

But last I checked, this threat was about handsex, not gender roles according to the Bible.

[sacrilicious]

Remember the show Wedding Story on TLC? I saw one where the bride didn't want to kiss until they were married, but I think they could hold hands and hug. Anyway, at the big moment when they were finally pronounced man and wife and allowed to kiss, the bride looked completely disgusted when it happened. I don't know if her new husband had a clove of garlic for breakfast, or what. It really looked like she had no idea what to expect and for whatever reason it didn't live up to her expectations. I always think about that when I read stuff like this. What is it like for these kids when they are allowed physical touch? Maybe the groom's hand will be sweaty the first time you touch it and it doesn't match up to what you imagined it would be.

[luckylassie]

Apparently, many Gothardite couples are told not to hold hands while they are courting. Supposedly, Anna's brother and his wife did not even touch during courtship (I read this on the old freejinger forum). I've even heard of cultures where the future bride and groom couldn't look at each other before the wedding. I don't think that I could resist touching my future spouse one bit. :lol:

[forever ago]

Remember the show Wedding Story on TLC? I saw one where the bride didn't want to kiss until they were married, but I think they could hold hands and hug. Anyway, at the big moment when they were finally pronounced man and wife and allowed to kiss, the bride looked completely disgusted when it happened. I don't know if her new husband had a clove of garlic for breakfast, or what. It really looked like she had no idea what to expect and for whatever reason it didn't live up to her expectations. I always think about that when I read stuff like this. What is it like for these kids when they are allowed physical touch? Maybe the groom's hand will be sweaty the first time you touch it and it doesn't match up to what you imagined it would be.

First kisses are never magical, wonderful things they're made out to be to naive girls who have never been kissed. The more you fantasize about and romanticize something, the worse the disappointment. Especially when it comes to sex.

[emeraldskull]

First kisses are never magical, wonderful things they're made out to be to naive girls who have never been kissed. The more you fantasize about and romanticize something, the worse the disappointment. Especially when it comes to sex.

I agree. Personally, I am saving sex for marriage, and haven't been kissed yet... but at least I know what to expect when the time arrives. I think in the fundie world since you aren't allowed to talk about it or research it or read about it or anything... all you have on the wedding night is what you imagined. But maybe the first kiss is wet, and feels gross. They didn't expect sex to hurt, or they didn't expect to still feel dirty (as others have said, it isn't a switch you can switch on and off!).

It's kinda sad, really. Their whole life is about being a wife and making babies... yet they aren't even able to enjoy the process! :(