Well I see why Catholics are not real christians.

[doggie]

Well of course I don't think this but this may be why

[Arete]

Well, any faith that allows its leadership to systematically apply data to explain natural phenomena obviously has lost the right to be called Christian. :hand: Why else do you think fundies always refer to it as "the Catholic religion"?

[velly]

I don't know if this is joking or not (been up for 18 hours nursing a tortoise back to health) but the Christian and Catholic religions are VERY different. I was raised by a Christian father and a Catholic mother... the differences were drilled into me every time they argued.

[Wolfie]

I don't know if this is joking or not (been up for 18 hours nursing a tortoise back to health) but the Christian and Catholic religions are VERY different. I was raised by a Christian father and a Catholic mother... the differences were drilled into me every time they argued.

Um, I think you mean Protestant and Catholic. They're both Christian, along with Orthodox and some other variations.

My mom was Protestant, my dad Catholic. The biggest difference we noticed growing up is that Catholics are much more into ritual than most protestants (though Episcopalians/Church of England has a lot of ritual too.) But basically, in spite of the variations, and how you pray, they believe that there is God, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit. (though the Holy Spirit isn't emphasized in all Christian religions and is often just considered to be part of Jesus, and with the Trinity, they're all one anyway.)

[velly]

Um, I think you mean Protestant and Catholic. They're both Christian, along with Orthodox and some other variations.

My mom was Protestant, my dad Catholic. The biggest difference we noticed growing up is that Catholics are much more into ritual than most protestants (though Episcopalians/Church of England has a lot of ritual too.) But basically, in spite of the variations, and how you pray, they believe that there is God, Jesus his son, and the Holy Spirit. (though the Holy Spirit isn't emphasized in all Christian religions and is often just considered to be part of Jesus, and with the Trinity, they're all one anyway.)

Nein, sir/ma'am/!

I meant Christian and Catholic... different religions. Christianity is a religion on its own and believe different things than Catholics but Catholics are called "Christians" because they believe in Christ and stuff but that's like saying Death Metal and New Metal are the same... Sure, they share a root but they are completely different.

[Patsy]

Some people use "Christian" as different from "Catholic", but "Christian" basically just means (in most definitions) that you follow a religion based on Jesus. Catholicism, Orthodox churches and the Protestant branches (I'm assuming your dad was from one of those) are all under that umbrella.

[velly]

Some people use "Christian" as different from "Catholic", but "Christian" basically just means (in most definitions) that you follow a religion based on Jesus. Catholicism, Orthodox churches and the Protestant branches (I'm assuming your dad was from one of those) are all under that umbrella.

Well according to his church (He's not only a fundie... he's a pastor for a church... or well he WAS, he's much more lite now) they are Christians, no denomination and not Protestant just... Christians. And yes, that's generally what it means but most fundies are actually Christians not anything else.

That's how they differentiate it anyway. I have Protestant uncles too... that whole side of my family is whack.

[Patsy]

Or, here's my hamfisted summary of church histories:

There were some very early root churches, like Ethiopian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox. Catholicism rooted in Rome and spread around different parts of Europe, and in western Europe was basically what Christianity was. There were a few Catholic schisms where two different people claimed to be Pope at the same time, but I think only one of those split churches survives in any form today, the rest were eventually subsumed. So basically, in England, France, etc, everyone was Catholic. Then a whole bunch of Protestant churches split off c 1500 - that's where Martin Luther, John Calvin, Henry VIII come in.

From my perspective, as an Australian, our country around 1900 was largely Anglican, and so the term "dissenters" was used not for Protestants, but for non-Anglican Protestants such as Presbyterians -- because it wasn't "default Catholic, and others", it was "default Anglican, and others, and then there's the Catholics, ew don't intermarry with them". Certain areas in America had similar social views.

So... yes. I'm assuming the "Christian" church has its origins somewhere, and didn't exist alongside Catholicism this whole time. Presumably it has origins in some strand or another. Of course, it's troublesome trying to smack a label on a church just because it shares features with another :D If you're not a "Calvinist" (believe that salvation is a matter of fate, basically), you're an "Arminian", but just because that term is named after a dude called Jacobus Arminius, who was against Calvinist thought, doesn't mean that if you're an Arminian, your belief system stems from his theology.

His church being called "Christian" would be perfectly accurate, because presumably it is indeed Christian, but it's a bit like calling a shop "a shop" and never giving it a name, and then saying "no, no, shops are totally different to second-hand stores because we buy all our stock new!" Most people would say a second-hand store is a type of "shop", and the lack of a label is fine... until it starts confusing the issue and making it seem like the term actually defines the whole picture of what "a shop" or "Christianity" is.

[Patsy]

most fundies are actually Christians not anything else

A lot of the ones we discuss here might search the Bible and come to their own conclusions on certain things - and not necessarily just follow what their priest says - but the churches they go to are still of some denomination or another. Many of the people discussed here go to Independent Baptist churches, for instance, which I think means that they are based in the Baptist tradition, but they're not actually a part of the current family of churches and so wouldn't get any funding or guidance from the wider network of Baptist churches in America.

If that's an incorrect representation of Independent Baptist churches, somebody please correct me.

[Wolfie]

Nein, sir/ma'am/!

I meant Christian and Catholic... different religions. Christianity is a religion on its own and believe different things than Catholics but Catholics are called "Christians" because they believe in Christ and stuff but that's like saying Death Metal and New Metal are the same... Sure, they share a root but they are completely different.

I still disagree, Protestant and Catholic are both Christian. Just different branches, and Death Metal and New Metal are both Metal, just different types.

[Cran]

velly, because some random fundie-church teaches it, and your dad believe sit, doesn't make it true.

"Christianity" is, as pointed out, an umbrella term, that covers different kinds of Christians. The main denominations are (in order of numbers) Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.

Those people who claim to be "only Christians" may of course do so, but as above, this doesn't make it true, either. You always follow a specific interpretation of the bible and the Christian tradition, and this exactly is a denomination.

Most "I am Christian only"-people will fall into a Protestant denomination, usually evangelical with Baptist/Calvinist leanings.

And btw, how could anyone believing that Christ is the saviour, God etc. NOT be called Christian? Very confusing. Oh, no, wait: Uneducated is the word I was looking for. Fundie indoctrination spreads its misinformation out until the next generation... and the next. And further. Makes Baby Jesus weep, you know.

[alaeangelorum]

I still disagree, Protestant and Catholic are both Christian. Just different branches, and Death Metal and New Metal are both Metal, just different types.

^ ITA. There may be people within whole umbrella group Christian who specifically refer to themselves as Christian and Christian only, but that does not mean that Catholics and Orthodox believers are not Christian. In the UK at least we have some Protestant churches that are very 'high' (have incense, lots of decoration, Eucharist every Sunday and believe in something similar to transubstantiation) and very like Catholic churches but still Protestant.

[Maggie Mae]

I went to Catholic (and Hebrew) school. I was taught at the Catholic school that anyone who believed that Jesus CHRIST was the son of god is a CHRISTian. So I never really understood the whole "Catholics aren't Xian" viewpoint. At all. it has Christ in the name, afterall

[fundyfunland]

I went to Catholic (and Hebrew) school. I was taught at the Catholic school that anyone who believed that Jesus CHRIST was the son of god is a CHRISTian. So I never really understood the whole "Catholics aren't Xian" viewpoint. At all. it has Christ in the name, afterall

Ah, you beat me to it. Really, anyone who believes Christ is the messiah & son of God, is Christian! And, I know this might hurt but, that includes LDS (Mormons), Jehovah's Witnesses, and any orthodox variety. I'd also venture to say that any cult that claims Christ is the son of God & messiah is also Christian.

[ricky_ticky]

Another aspect about this debate that eludes me is the claim made by some modern Protestant groups that the Catholic religion worships the devil or is entirely corrupt and debased. I mean, technically speaking aren't both belief systems based upon the same texts and the same fundamental doctrine of the divinity of Christ? I understand the "problematic" aspects of sainthood and the papacy, (and numerous others,) but isn't following the leadership and biblical interpretations of a guy like Gothard, (or Dougie,) sort of similar to following a pope? And ultimately, didn't the Catholic church precede the Protestant forms of Christianity? How would Protestant Christianity exist without Catholicism and/or the Orthodox forms of Christianity?

[Muriel]

velly, because some random fundie-church teaches it, and your dad believe sit, doesn't make it true.

"Christianity" is, as pointed out, an umbrella term, that covers different kinds of Christians. The main denominations are (in order of numbers) Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox.

Those people who claim to be "only Christians" may of course do so, but as above, this doesn't make it true, either. You always follow a specific interpretation of the bible and the Christian tradition, and this exactly is a denomination.

Most "I am Christian only"-people will fall into a Protestant denomination, usually evangelical with Baptist/Calvinist leanings.

And btw, how could anyone believing that Christ is the saviour, God etc. NOT be called Christian? Very confusing. Oh, no, wait: Uneducated is the word I was looking for. Fundie indoctrination spreads its misinformation out until the next generation... and the next. And further. Makes Baby Jesus weep, you know.

This. I feel quite offended when some random self proclaimed "Christian pastor" says that Catholics are not Christians :roll:

[bouncyball]

I get real angry when people get snobby about Catholics. I think it's very offensive not to call them Christians, but I do see where the argument comes from. There's a lot of idolatry and stuff that's not in the Bible tagged on by the Pope via 'apostolic succession', which also isn't in the Bible. Since I'm an atheist I don't give a shit, I just respect people's wishes and call them what they wish to be called.

[lilith]

Well of course I don't think this but this may be why

I think the person who wrote that wants me to think "oh, evil catholic priest, trying to disprove 6 day creationism", but I'm actually thinking that he must be a really brave and clever man to pursue a course of research that may (and probably did) shake the faith he has built his life on.

And I'm also thinking that any true believer should have no fear of science, because if they have true faith they shouldn't be afraid of the truths science will reveal.

[BlueChair]

I don't know if this is joking or not (been up for 18 hours nursing a tortoise back to health) but the Christian and Catholic religions are VERY different. I was raised by a Christian father and a Catholic mother... the differences were drilled into me every time they argued.

I think you are maybe talking about an issue of semantics based on where you come from? I've noticed a lot in Europe that when people say Christian what they are really referring to is Protestant. They get specific when they speak about Catholics and Orthodox or even more notable fringe Christian groups such as the Mormons. But various brands of Protestantism get lumped together under the title of Christian. Just because Christian = Protestant in their way of speaking does not mean Catholics (and everyone else who believes in Christ) are not Christian. And I'm speaking as an atheist, for what it's worth.

[divadivine]

Nein, sir/ma'am/!

I meant Christian and Catholic... different religions. Christianity is a religion on its own and believe different things than Catholics but Catholics are called "Christians" because they believe in Christ and stuff but that's like saying Death Metal and New Metal are the same... Sure, they share a root but they are completely different.

Catholics are Christians. All followers of Christ are Christians. Some just happen to be Catholic Christians. Some are Protestant Christians, Baptist Christians, Evangelical Christians, Lutheran Christians..... I could go on. Ugh, why do we continually have to explain this to people? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is the world's largest, and Christianity's oldest, religious body. /rant

[BlueChair]

Catholics are Christians. All followers of Christ are Christians. Some just happen to be Catholic Christians. Some are Protestant Christians, Baptist Christians, Evangelical Christians, Lutheran Christians..... I could go on. Ugh, why do we continually have to explain this to people? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is the world's largest, and Christianity's oldest, religious body. /rant

No. There is no uniform way to be Christian. There is no one set Christian theology, liturgy, way of praying, etc. Protestant covers a whole mess of different denominations, including evangelicals, who fall under that title because they are not Catholic and not Orthodox. Christian is the big overarching classification for all smaller branches that believe in Christ. I'm stymied by how people can think Catholics aren't Christians when the Catholic Church holds the historical roots of their belief system.

[heinz57]

I get real angry when people get snobby about Catholics. I think it's very offensive not to call them Christians, but I do see where the argument comes from. There's a lot of idolatry and stuff that's not in the Bible tagged on by the Pope via 'apostolic succession', which also isn't in the Bible. Since I'm an atheist I don't give a shit, I just respect people's wishes and call them what they wish to be called.

Bolding mine, because wouldn't it be akin to saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jewish because they also developed the Talmud and pray at great rabbis graves, and the real Jews are only the Karaites?

Catholicism is really old and developed plenty of traditions/customs, that doesn't make it unchristian, because the basic tenant is still that Jesus is the Messiah. The fundies also practice a lot of things that are not in the Bible, it doesn't make them any more/less christian.

[Cran]

I understood it differently than you did: The maker wanted to express that, against current views on the Catholic church, the church is no enemy of science.

Btw, creationism is no believe Catholics are required to hold, and most don't, and the current pope doesn't either.

Gregor Mendel was a priest, too... while we're talking about Catholic scientists.

[TudorRose]

when I was a Baptist fundy kid, I was taught that we weren't Protestants, that we were never part of the Church of Rome. (If anyone's curious, try to read "The Trail Of Blood." It's a booklet that traces out this denomination's alleged history through a bunch of different fringe groups. I found it very boring and illogical at the same time. Just because there were this group, and this group--that doesn't mean American Baptists CAME from them. The author doesn't really draw those lines very well.)

My mom still gets upset if I call her 'Protestant.' (Not that I troll my mother like that. mostly, we don't talk church. But she finds it offensive)

[bouncyball]

Bolding mine, because wouldn't it be akin to saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jewish because they also developed the Talmud and pray at great rabbis graves, and the real Jews are only the Karaites?

Catholicism is really old and developed plenty of traditions/customs, that doesn't make it unchristian, because the basic tenant is still that Jesus is the Messiah. The fundies also practice a lot of things that are not in the Bible, it doesn't make them any more/less christian.

You make a good point, I never considered it within the context of Judaism. I certainly wouldn't say Orthodox Jews weren't 'real' Jews. I find it hard to defend my old faith to some of my vociferous Baptist friends (I was raised Catholic and had a full education, but I am now atheist.)