Well I see why Catholics are not real christians.

[FaustianSlip]

Bolding mine, because wouldn't it be akin to saying that Orthodox Jews aren't really Jewish because they also developed the Talmud and pray at great rabbis graves, and the real Jews are only the Karaites?

Not to threadjack, but there are plenty of Orthodox Jews who will quite aggressively assert that Reform and Conservative Judaism (and other denominations) aren't actually Judaism, and while the people practicing them may be Jews according to Jewish law (or may not, depending on certain accidents of birth), they aren't "real"/traditional/heimish/Torah Judaism. So it does happen in other religions.

Personally, I think it's mostly ridiculous. The only time I would buy into any of this, "Oooh, you're not really a Christian/Jew/Hindu/Pastafarian" is in contexts like Lina's, where not only are they trying to carve out a brand new denomination (or religion, if you will), but rather than just do that, they're attempting to lie their way into an existing community in order to steeplejack and/or gain some kind of validity for themselves. I would feel similarly about someone who wasn't baptized into the Catholic church summarily declaring themselves Catholic and frequenting churches in communion with Rome in order to receive the sacraments, or someone pretending to be Mormon in order to enter the Temple. That's just douchery. Beyond that though, whatever. And from a purely historical standpoint, virtually every Protestant denomination spawned from the Catholic church, whether they like it or not.

[Cerdwin]

...

From my perspective, as an Australian, our country around 1900 was largely Anglican, and so the term "dissenters" was used not for Protestants, but for non-Anglican Protestants such as Presbyterians -- because it wasn't "default Catholic, and others", it was "default Anglican, and others, and then there's the Catholics, ew don't intermarry with them". Certain areas in America had similar social views.

My mother's consternation at my marrying a Catholic was only surpassed by my mother in law's disappointment that I wasn't a 'good Catholic girl'. Now we sadden them equally by not choosing to bring our kids up in either church.

[Boogalou]

Catholics are Christians. All followers of Christ are Christians. Some just happen to be Catholic Christians. Some are Protestant Christians, Baptist Christians, Evangelical Christians, Lutheran Christians..... I could go on. Ugh, why do we continually have to explain this to people? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH is the world's largest, and Christianity's oldest, religious body. /rant

The Catholic Church isn't really the oldest Christian religious body. It's at least as old as Eastern Orthodoxy.

[FaustianSlip]

Yes, but prior to the Great Schism, the Orthodox churches (including Eastern Orthodoxy) and the Catholic/Roman church were one in the same. We can debate about who broke away from whom, I suppose, but at most, the two churches are equal in longevity. As someone with no dog at all in this particular fight, I would be inclined to say that it was the Orthodox church that broke away from Rome, as they were the ones who rejected papal authority, but it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this discussion, as I very much doubt that the average fundie or fundie-lite, Evangelical Christian would consider practitioners of Eastern/Greek Orthodoxy to be "real" Christians, either.

[MissA]

Fred Clark, who blogs at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist (not breaking because I bet he'd love FJ if he knew about us) has a great term for those those people who insist that they are "Christians" and that members of other Christian sects are Protestants/Catholics/Whatevers. He calls them the "Real True Christians". And honestly, that's how I almost always see it used, as an exclusionary term to indicate that other variants are not *really* Christian. Which, honestly, is tacky as hell.

[treemom]

I can't believe that we are actually having the Catholics are Christians discussion here. I didn't realize that people who had sense actually claimed otherwise.

[Loveday]

I can't believe that we are actually having the Catholics are Christians discussion here. I didn't realize that people who had sense actually claimed otherwise.

Me, either. I expect a debate like this on forums like the Baptist Board (where The Trail of Blood is often brought up as 'proof' that Baptists have existed since the stone was rolled away from the Tomb), but not here. Catholics and their predecessors back to the earliest days have always been Christians. Yes, there's a hell of a lot of window dressing now that wasn't there at the beginning, but remove all that, and Jesus is still at the Church's core.

[Mela99]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't refer to myself as a Christian. Partially because it is very different from standard Christianity and I embrace it because of that, and partially because I think a lot of crazypants in this world give Christianity a bad name, and I don't want to attach myself to that. And yes, the Catholic church has some naughty history, but not to the frightening, fundy, creeptastic level that makes me scared.

[treemom]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't refer to myself as a Christian. Partially because it is very different from standard Christianity and I embrace it because of that, and partially because I think a lot of crazypants in this world give Christianity a bad name, and I don't want to attach myself to that. And yes, the Catholic church has some naughty history, but not to the frightening, fundy, creeptastic level that makes me scared.

How is Catholicism not part of the greater Christian community.

Divinity of Christ? Check. yep I think that is all it takes.

[BlueChair]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't refer to myself as a Christian. Partially because it is very different from standard Christianity and I embrace it because of that, and partially because I think a lot of crazypants in this world give Christianity a bad name, and I don't want to attach myself to that. And yes, the Catholic church has some naughty history, but not to the frightening, fundy, creeptastic level that makes me scared.

This makes no sense to me. No matter what you call yourself, Catholics are Christians. You don't get to opt out because of unfavorable connotations.

[FaustianSlip]

He calls them the "Real True Christians". And honestly, that's how I almost always see it used, as an exclusionary term to indicate that other variants are not *really* Christian. Which, honestly, is tacky as hell.

QFT. There are few things that infuriate my (Episcopalian) mother more than when someone starts asking her, "Are you a Christian?" Because she knows, based on experience, that it almost never means, "Are you a member of a denomination that identifies Jesus Christ as the Messiah, such as the Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox church, the Baptist church, the Methodist church, the Episcopal church, the Amish, et cetera?" It's a wink wink, nudge nudge code for, "Are you my brand of Christian, namely, are you a born-again, evangelical and/or fundamentalist Christian?" Because as far as the asker is concerned, only those types of Christians are real Christians, anyway. I find it incredibly obnoxious, and I'm not even Christian any more! The equivalent for me in Jewland is when I see Orthodox people using phraseology like "Torah Jews" or "halachic Jews" or even "observant Jews" (because you can be an observant Reform Jew- I personally know a ton of them). The connotations of the last one can vary a lot based on context, but the first two are almost never used, in my experience, in anything but an exclusionary way. "Torah Jews" is the worst. Ugh.

As for the discussion itself, I only see one person who's actively trying to argue that Catholics and Christians are two separate, mutually exclusive categories. For the record, I absolutely consider Catholics Christians, along with pretty much every other mainline denomination. The only case I know of where I can kind of understand why some people would balk at lumping them in with the broader range of Christianity would be Mormonism, but that's because there's a whole set of doctrine there, along with whole additional sets of scriptures, that is profoundly different from anything else in Christianity. Historically, the Mormon church did for a while purposely differentiate itself from Christianity as a whole, as well (and actually, I would have similar feelings about the JW's). But that's more of a theological discussion for me than, "Neener, neener, you're not Christian!" I mean, call yourself whatever you want. Catholicism is so completely mainstream, though, I don't see why it's even up for debate.

[jaynie]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't refer to myself as a Christian. Partially because it is very different from standard Christianity and I embrace it because of that, and partially because I think a lot of crazypants in this world give Christianity a bad name, and I don't want to attach myself to that. And yes, the Catholic church has some naughty history, but not to the frightening, fundy, creeptastic level that makes me scared.

Really? I would have thought that Catholicism's reputation was at least as bad as it's Protestant counterparts these days, if not actually worse. That might be the area I live in / culture I grew up in, though.

Also, I would have used a lot stronger a word than "naughty" to describe the history and some of the values of the Catholic church. (Not talking about individual Catholics, here, who mighty be very very naughty or very very nice on a personal level).

[jenny_islander]

Well according to his church (He's not only a fundie... he's a pastor for a church... or well he WAS, he's much more lite now) they are Christians, no denomination and not Protestant just... Christians. And yes, that's generally what it means but most fundies are actually Christians not anything else.

That's how they differentiate it anyway. I have Protestant uncles too... that whole side of my family is whack.

It doesn't matter what they teach; the Catholic church is at least a thousand years older than whatever they are and it is Christian. I can call four five all day long and even get a bunch of people to agree with me and it'll still be four.

Non-denominational Protestant churches are infamous for doing this. The more a group insists on calling itself "just Christian," the more likely it is to be new (from the perspective of the whole body of Christ), small (ditto), and insistent that it and it alone is "just Christian." It can be taken to absurd lengths. We have a bunch in our town who insist on calling themselves "professing people," no capitals, as an outward show of humility--"Christian" would cheapen the name of Christ, you see. They are the most ingrown, prideful, nasty-minded, creepy, controlling jerks I have ever met.

ETA: I posted before I saw MissA's shout-out to Fred Clark. IIRC he posted the link to a FreeJinger thread that led me here in the first place, although it could've been someone else. I strongly recommend his blog to people who were raised to think of their family's or preacher's habits and opinions as "just Christian." (Also edited to remove the word "hateful" from my description of the professing people. Their attitude toward us heathens is usually more like prune-faced contempt, although one couple did try to stare a hole in my skull once, either for reading a book about plankton in a public place or for being the sister of the girl who saw the light and dumped their Josh Duggar-ish son more than 20 years previously, thus ending what they probably thought of as a done deal.)

[yaright]

I am catholic and I am a Christian because I believe in Jesus. And why are we having this debate on FJ? Secondly if you are protestant and I said: Protestants are not Christian they are Protestants, or Baptist are Christians they are Baptist; you would look at me like I was an idiot. Well your doing the same thing.

You can be nondenominational it doesn't mean you own the term "Christian"

As for not Claiming your faith because of some bad parts, EVERY RELIGION has bad parts, pagans, buddist, muslims, athiest etc etc every faith has the good the bad and the ugly.

Lastly back to the OP I LOVE that poster! Good points. I was told in Church once by a conservative Priest that "The church should never turn its back on Science and the Bible is never wrong. We just have interpreted it wrong if it doesn't match up with Science." I liked that speech alot. It might not work for others to me it was really enlightening.

[linnea27]

Really? I would have thought that Catholicism's reputation was at least as bad as it's Protestant counterparts these days, if not actually worse. That might be the area I live in / culture I grew up in, though.

Also, I would have used a lot stronger a word than "naughty" to describe the history and some of the values of the Catholic church. (Not talking about individual Catholics, here, who mighty be very very naughty or very very nice on a personal level).

ITA. The "Catholics have a better reputation than other Christians" viewpoint has me scratching my head, too.

[AtroposHeart]

I always love it when people qoute Einstein with "God does not place dice." and I reply, "Stop telling God what to do with his dice."

Then I go on a nerdy rant about this dude. Loads of fun!!!!

[tankgirl]

ITA. The "Catholics have a better reputation than other Christians" viewpoint has me scratching my head, too.

Some one either has not studied up on their history or turned a blind eye to it. While the Protestants have some dark periods, and as much as I hate seeing modern parents beating their kids, the old time Catholics, did some straight out evil shit, in the name of God.

[heinz57]

Not to threadjack, but there are plenty of Orthodox Jews who will quite aggressively assert that Reform and Conservative Judaism (and other denominations) aren't actually Judaism, and while the people practicing them may be Jews according to Jewish law (or may not, depending on certain accidents of birth), they aren't "real"/traditional/heimish/Torah Judaism. So it does happen in other religions.

For sure. But my point was not about the differences in Jewish denominations, trust me, I'm fully aware of the dog fight there :(

All I meant to say that if you say Catholics are not Christian because they have additional rules to what is in the Bible, then by analogy you'd have to say that Jews are not part of Judaism because they developed additional rules to what is in the Tanakh.

[Boogalou]

Yes, but prior to the Great Schism, the Orthodox churches (including Eastern Orthodoxy) and the Catholic/Roman church were one in the same. We can debate about who broke away from whom, I suppose, but at most, the two churches are equal in longevity. As someone with no dog at all in this particular fight, I would be inclined to say that it was the Orthodox church that broke away from Rome, as they were the ones who rejected papal authority, but it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this discussion, as I very much doubt that the average fundie or fundie-lite, Evangelical Christian would consider practitioners of Eastern/Greek Orthodoxy to be "real" Christians, either.

Oh, absolutely. I guess I am really just arguing over semantics. Catholocism is not the oldest Christian sect it is just one of the oldest Christian sects.

[divadivine]

No. There is no uniform way to be Christian. There is no one set Christian theology, liturgy, way of praying, etc. Protestant covers a whole mess of different denominations, including evangelicals, who fall under that title because they are not Catholic and not Orthodox. Christian is the big overarching classification for all smaller branches that believe in Christ. I'm stymied by how people can think Catholics aren't Christians when the Catholic Church holds the historical roots of their belief system.

You and I both.... so many "Christians" [non-Catholics] refuse to acknowledge Catholics as Christians when yes, the Catholic Church holds the historical roots of their belief system. They seem to have forgotten that detail some where along the way. Or they have selective memory recall.

[theologygeek]

Nein, sir/ma'am/!

I meant Christian and Catholic... different religions. Christianity is a religion on its own and believe different things than Catholics but Catholics are called "Christians" because they believe in Christ and stuff but that's like saying Death Metal and New Metal are the same... Sure, they share a root but they are completely different.

Um. Never mind. I'm going to bed.

[jesusfreak]

I am catholic and I am a Christian because I believe in Jesus. And why are we having this debate on FJ? Secondly if you are protestant and I said: Protestants are not Christian they are Protestants, or Baptist are Christians they are Baptist; you would look at me like I was an idiot. Well your doing the same thing.

You can be nondenominational it doesn't mean you own the term "Christian"

As for not Claiming your faith because of some bad parts, EVERY RELIGION has bad parts, pagans, buddist, muslims, athiest etc etc every faith has the good the bad and the ugly.

Lastly back to the OP I LOVE that poster! Good points. I was told in Church once by a conservative Priest that "The church should never turn its back on Science and the Bible is never wrong. We just have interpreted it wrong if it doesn't match up with Science." I liked that speech alot. It might not work for others to me it was really enlightening.

Atheism is not a religion or a faith.

[doggie]

I understood it differently than you did: The maker wanted to express that, against current views on the Catholic church, the church is no enemy of science.

Btw, creationism is no believe Catholics are required to hold, and most don't, and the current pope doesn't either.

Gregor Mendel was a priest, too... while we're talking about Catholic scientists.

no you got what I was after. I was being sarcastic in that this fellow is what made Catholics not Christians. I was not really arguing about Catholics are not christian I was giving a sarcastic reason why other Christians don't think Catholics are christian because they discovered the big bang.

[pixydust]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't refer to myself as a Christian. Partially because it is very different from standard Christianity and I embrace it because of that, and partially because I think a lot of crazypants in this world give Christianity a bad name, and I don't want to attach myself to that. And yes, the Catholic church has some naughty history, but not to the frightening, fundy, creeptastic level that makes me scared.

Please tell that to my Jewish ancestors.

[heinz57]

Please tell that to my Jewish ancestors.

This.