Oh no! Maxwell's If/Then Chart not totally KJV!

[kpmom]

From the Maxwell's blog describing the If/Then Chart they sell,

 

"Scripture Version Note: ALL of the Maxwell books and CDs use the King James Version, but we recently discovered the IF/Then Chart (which we sell but didn't develop) isn't totally KJV. To our customers to whom this would matter, we wanted to let you know that there are four verses that are not KJV. Two of the verses on the If-Then part, one in the header of the chart, and another on the back. When we used the chart, we substituted verses we preferred to use rather than what was provided. We cut out paper the size of the rectangle where the other verse was located, copied our verse onto the paper, and taped it to the chart."

 

 

First of all, how do people who read a KJV bible every day of their lives just now discover these verses are not KJV?

 

Second, are their customers so dumb that they really need step by step directions on how to cover up a verse on the chart and write in their own? Never mind, don't answer that.

[Sunnichick31]

First, what's an If/then chart? Second, where do they talk about it not being KJV? (Seems like a lot of fundies make an idol out of KJV. Perhaps they should consider switching :) )

[takers401]

http://www.doorposts.com/details.aspx?id=14

It's a character chore chart that describes the poor behavior someone is doing (if), the correct behavior they should be doing via a Bible verse, and then a chore that the child needs to do (then) as a consequence for their bad behavior.

Used correctly I think this can actually be a good thing. A kid knows that if they display a certain behavior they'll get a specific punishment. Mom/Dad doesn't need to think up a punishment on the spot which may be too soft/hard and can tailor punishments to best fit the kid.

*ETA: Obviously the Bible verse isn't a requirement should 'you' not want to use it. I just like the general idea of a kid knowing the consequences of bad behavior beforehand.

[heart4home]

You probably won't get the exact, accurate meaning of the text unless you can read and understand the original language it was written in.

I don't think Jesus spoke in King James-era English.

[Conuly]

I don't think Jesus spoke in King James-era English.

Blasphemy! Not only did Jesus do so, but thou must as well!

Now, take three hours in the prayer closet and call me in the morning.

Edit: Interestingly, they also have a companion chart for rewarding your kid for good behavior. That shows more creativity than I expected from this crowd, honestly. Not a big fan of conditional rewards like that (all the evidence suggests it's counterproductive in the long run) but it's better than just beating the sin out of them. What the hell is a "servant's day", though?

[takers401]

Blasphemy! Not only did Jesus do so, but thou must as well!

Now, take three hours in the prayer closet and call me in the morning.

Edit: Interestingly, they also have a companion chart for rewarding your kid for good behavior. That shows more creativity than I expected from this crowd, honestly. Not a big fan of conditional rewards like that (all the evidence suggests it's counterproductive in the long run) but it's better than just beating the sin out of them. What the hell is a "servant's day", though?

Really? As a new Mom I would have thought the opposite. :oops: I'd love to see the article/study/etc you read that came to this conclusion.

[CrazyCatLady]

i have the kids i work with make their own if/than charts, but it's not just about punishment it's about getting kids to think about the long term consequences of actions both good and bad. i had no idea people SOLD these, they are so easy to make and tailor toward your child, plus the kids love making them and being involved.

also, i hate KJV. i suppose this means i am destined to burn.

[Conuly]

Really? As a new Mom I would have thought the opposite. :oops: I'd love to see the article/study/etc you read that came to this conclusion.

Most studies I've seen on praise and rewards show that it demotivates children. If you reward children for playing with markers, they are less likely to choose markers to play with on their own than the ones who weren't rewarded. If you praise them for helping others, they're less likely to want to help others in the future unless you're there to talk about how wonderful they are. Children who are complimented on being smart deliberately choose to do things that are easy because they can't risk challenging that assumption - and while the advice to praise effort is well-intended, recent studies coming out of China, where they've taken that idea and run with it, shows that kids there now believe that effort is an innate skill that can't be improved upon.

You want kids to want to do things because they're intrinsically motivated, not because they're hoping for a sticker.

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/200 ... chools.uk3

There's others, but I'm digging this up via google.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

http://www.doorposts.com/details.aspx?id=14

It's a character chore chart that describes the poor behavior someone is doing (if), the correct behavior they should be doing via a Bible verse, and then a chore that the child needs to do (then) as a consequence for their bad behavior.

Used correctly I think this can actually be a good thing. A kid knows that if they display a certain behavior they'll get a specific punishment. Mom/Dad doesn't need to think up a punishment on the spot which may be too soft/hard and can tailor punishments to best fit the kid.

*ETA: Obviously the Bible verse isn't a requirement should 'you' not want to use it. I just like the general idea of a kid knowing the consequences of bad behavior beforehand.

The idea behind this is actually pretty cool and might help with some things the offspring are doing now. Does anyone know of a secular version?

[Guest Anonymous]

The if.then chart doesn't just have chores as consequences. Some of the bible verses are about violence and the consequences are pictured as a number of sticks...

As to the issue of rewards for behaviour, am on a phone and can't post links but there is a wealth of psychological research data showing rewards to be very effective in encouraging positive behaviours. Interestingly, unexpected rewards, ie those not planned in advance, can have an even greater positive effect, suggesting that it is good to change routines up and give surprise rewards sometimes, in addition to traditional reward chart methods. :)

[Linnea]

Really? As a new Mom I would have thought the opposite. :oops: I'd love to see the article/study/etc you read that came to this conclusion.

Alfie Kohn's book "Punished by Rewards" is big in this line of thinking - about how if you make a big deal about rewarding certain behavior, kids will figure it's not worth doing for it's own sake, only for the rewards.

[Georgiana]

Alfie Kohn's book "Punished by Rewards" is big in this line of thinking - about how if you make a big deal about rewarding certain behavior, kids will figure it's not worth doing for it's own sake, only for the rewards.

Totally not scientific here, but my parents always reinforced my good behavior by telling me how proud they were of me and explaining how my good behavior had really helped other people. I began to see that good behavior helped everyone while bad behavior hurt others. In the end, I learned to love things like sharing etc. for their own sake because I knew it would benefit others even when my parents weren't around.

[Conuly]

Totally not scientific here, but my parents always reinforced my good behavior by telling me how proud they were of me and explaining how my good behavior had really helped other people. I began to see that good behavior helped everyone while bad behavior hurt others. In the end, I learned to love things like sharing etc. for their own sake because I knew it would benefit others even when my parents weren't around.

That's actually one thing Alfie Kohn suggests for people who are used to praising their kids and want to know what to say instead, that you point out the good effect their behavior has on the world. "Look how happy so-and-so is now that you let her borrow your doll", that sort of thing.

[takers401]

Most studies I've seen on praise and rewards show that it demotivates children. If you reward children for playing with markers, they are less likely to choose markers to play with on their own than the ones who weren't rewarded. If you praise them for helping others, they're less likely to want to help others in the future unless you're there to talk about how wonderful they are. Children who are complimented on being smart deliberately choose to do things that are easy because they can't risk challenging that assumption - and while the advice to praise effort is well-intended, recent studies coming out of China, where they've taken that idea and run with it, shows that kids there now believe that effort is an innate skill that can't be improved upon.

You want kids to want to do things because they're intrinsically motivated, not because they're hoping for a sticker.

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/200 ... chools.uk3

There's others, but I'm digging this up via google.

Thanks for the links!

[emmiedahl]

While consistently rewarding behavior turns it into a task to be completed, there are studies showing that inconsistent rewards can be effective. You know, those times when your kids are exceptionally well-behaved so you surprise them with fro-yo. Also, I think the studies referenced here deal with older children. If-then rewards can be very effective in building good habits in small children ime.

An older child needs to understand that their behavior is more important than a cost-benefit analysis. This is the age when they are psychologically primed to develop empathy, a sense of fairness, and other internal ideals. Example is one of the best ways of developing these. Just being empathetic and nonviolent and fair will go a long way toward teaching the right behavior.

[clarinetpower]

Note regarding the first link: great article, and from my years of teaching, totally true. "Good job!" means very little. "I like how you've figured out how to do X. You didn't know that last week."--makes them glow with pride, and try to figure out Y. It's not a lack of praise, it's very specific, thoughtful praise.

That article was also a chapter in the book "Nurture Shock" by Po Bronson and Ashley Merriman. Excellent read. Some really interesting educational studies in there (and not dry at all--I could hardly put it down.)

[Jessica]

Well, their customers are dumb enough to feel the need to spend $25 for a book that tells you how to schedule your day into half-hour blocks and use post-it notes to display it all.

[TheJewAmongUs]

Instead of giving instructions to cover up the verses with paper, why aren't the offering to refund or replace the charts? I'll have to consult the bible as to what Jesus would do. What is the King James version the one the Gideons leave in hotels? Because that's the only place I'm used to seeing a bible.

[Witsec7]

Well, their customers are dumb enough to feel the need to spend $25 for a book that tells you how to schedule your day into half-hour blocks and use post-it notes to display it all.

Yea I'm presuming most all of the folks who are their customers have computers. When I worked I used the calendar feature in my software to schedule stuff. But I didn't have eleventy! kids nor did I schedule routine housework.