Lori Alexander thinks teachers are rich

[GolightlyGrrl]

I just left a comment at Lori's remark regarding her piss poor command of the English language. Somehow I doubt she'll approve it.

[BlondeAsTheyCome]

She makes me want to stab things. Seriously, who makes over $100,000 teaching? No one. I'm graduating next spring with my B.S. in secondary social studies education and I won't ever make even half of what my DH does. It doesn't matter because I love and have a passion for teaching. I'm not in it for the money. She is stupid if she truly believes that teachers get into their profession for money. I have never heard of a single teacher who teaches because they thought it would be a good financial decision.

[Wolfie]

God, I must be doing it wrong. I make less than a third of that a year. I would like to meet these several wealthy teachers she knows and ask them what their secret is. Oh wait, I bet I can guess: Their secret is that they are a product of Lori's imagination, so they can make as much as she wants them to. :roll:

If you find them, can you let me know? I want to teach where they are teaching.

(now in the higher cost of living areas, the pay for the teachers will be higher, but even when I lived in a higher cost area, I never was in a district that paid $100,000 a year for even top of the pay scale teachers)

So, I found this http://lbusd.org/cms/lib2/CA01001643/Ce ... hedule.pdf and http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-275926--.html This is far from the norm. I did find a site that put as the "average salary" for a teacher the highest salary on the pay scale , huh, top is not average. The base salary at laguna beach is higher than the vast majority of teacher will make after even 10 years of teaching. Even in California. The highest salary step in the district where I work is less than 76,000, and that's after 33 years, with a masters plus more credits.

[Gil]

My husband is a teacher with a master's and 25 years of experience in the same big-city school district, and he is pretty much right at the median then. Where are these six-figure teachers? I'm a classical musician and I have made more than my husband every year of our marriage with the exception of the year that my orchestra went dark. (no thanks to my orchestra either, I teach and gig a lot)

It varies by state -- I have statistics per state, too. It varies pretty significantly down the board, but six figure teachers are far from common.

[Maggie Mae]

I know a few teachers who make close to 100K. But that's because they do commercial fishing in the summer months. Which means that they are working two full time jobs, one of which is listed as the most dangerous job in America.

I think it sucks that the conservatives can't see the value in education. You can't get better results by cutting funding. You get better results in schools by supporting education. You don't even have to financially support education to get better results - make schools a part of the community! Make sure when you watch your children perform in school talent shows, you stay for the whole show and tell all the kids what a great job they did! Take an interest in children who aren't your own.

I hate fundies and their seperationist "worldview".

[CrazyCatLady]

Lori is stupid. I honestly think the brain tumor took what little was there to begin with and destroyed it.

[lilwriter85]

Really? This? I agree with the gist of it but I can't help but feel massively awkward about the 'Why shouldn't teachers earn more than some nurses' part. You want a highly skilled job that is under-appreciated and underpaid? Think nursing. The nurses I know have crazy, far-reaching medical skills. They literally save people's lives and yet they get treated like doctors' servants and get paid jack shit for their trouble.

The reason I replied with "This" is because, I agree with golightlygirl's bolded part about Lori ripping teachers apart.

[PennySycamore]

Among the many misspellings in that screed, there was this sentence "It is disfunctional with no lack of accountablity." Should not that "no" be omitted? The sentence doesn't mean what she thinks it means, but rather the exact opposite.

[emmiedahl]

I wonder if she is counting top level administrators. I know of principals that make almost six figures and our superintendent of schools makes $300k per year. But the starting salaries for teachers around here runs $30,000. In my area this is a decent and livable wage that meets or surpasses what most people here make with a similar degree in another field, but hardly six figures.

[darkplumaged]

(now in the higher cost of living areas, the pay for the teachers will be higher, but even when I lived in a higher cost area, I never was in a district that paid $100,000 a year for even top of the pay scale teachers)

I live in one of the most expensive areas of the country, and median household income in my county exceeds $100,000. Even here, a teacher would have to have been in the classroom for 27 years and have a PhD in order to make $100,000. How many teachers have those qualifications?

Fundies are always so sure they're right and so sure that is getting one over on Christians/conservatives/real Americans.

[mama_bear]

I also disagree with the notion that no other job allows you to stay if you are a poor worker. Every organization I've dealt with has some workers who do not do a good job. Rude checkout clerks, mechanics who go days over their original estimate of completion, doctors who misdiagnose, the chef who makes a poor meal in a restaurant and the list could go on and on. Yes, some of those people will be fired but many will continue on in their positions regardless of less than stellar performance.

[ShadowyOne]

Fuck Lori with painful implements. My brother, who has a masters in computer science from one of the top universities in the US, left his job making big bucks at a software company because he was not fulfilled. He is currently in a fast-track program to become a teacher specializing in math, science, and computing after seeing his GF complete her teaching program (she had a concentration in special ed). When he graduates, he will likely work in the Chicago public school system, almost certainly starting in an underprivileged school, and certainly starting at a salary less than what he previously made. I know that there are teachers out there who are under par, but I agree with previous posts that there are (of course) under-performers in any field that one could mention (law of averages). My bro will make an absolutely fantastic teacher (and his GF already is, IMHO). It sometimes takes only one amazing teacher to inspire a kid (I remember mine; how many of you remember "the one" teacher who stood out for you?). I know that my bro will do so much good, and I have nothing but praise for the path that he's chosen to take, even though it's better for his soul than his wallet. [/rant]

[lilwriter85]

Lilwriter, you missed one! She misspelled "underprivileged" too!

Good catch. The other misspellings stood out more to me. I'm surprised that Lori hasn't corrected the misspellings. Sometime back, she had a hilarious typo in another posting which a FJ member pointed out and the next she changed it.

[Ralar]

Why shouldn't teachers earn more than some nurses and accountants? Why do so many people (including non-fundies) think that teaching is an easy low-skill job and that teachers should basically do it as charity work? Teachers need to pay for education and then they have a demanding job. They deserve to be paid fairly for the work they do. They aren't just leeches on taxpayer money; they provide a service in exchange for pay just like everyone else.

I guess they figure they do it without pay, and all the SOTDRT teachers they know ARE unskilled.

[YPestis]

I'm often surprised that anyone thinks teachers are overpaid.....if that was the case, then why don't people flock to teaching to get rich? I mean, so many people go into finance and wall street hoping they will strike it rich, why isn't teaching a path to riches for anyone if it was such a easy buck?

I think fundies like to denigrate any profession which they think interferes with their idea of a fundie paradise. Since public schools are evil and exposes kids to new ideas, those teachers must be leeches and overpaid. The same goes for women in non feminine professions because women aren't suppose to be in high paying, authoritative positions therefore they must be incompetent. The same goes for liberal arts professors since they teach "useless"things and it's "unbiblical, and they also perpetuate the educational system. I think the only professions they do respect ate those that stereotypically enforce their lifestyle and doesn't require them to violate their fundie beliefs. Thats why engineering and tradesmen professions are probably appealing....they are male dominated professions still and don't require them to question the bible too much. Plus, you can run your own business with it which reinforces their ideals of a family independent of the government. It's also why fundies are hostile to so many other jobs (women lawyers, teachers, professors, govt workers), because they may see it as a threat to their way of life.

[fundiefan]

My former sister in law is/was a teacher. Same job for 45 years in the same school. She was a special ed teacher. She retired the last year that I was married and there were lots of discussions at her retirement party about how she did it, etc. Somehow, we talked about her salary and she was pretty open with it. After 45 years, continuing education at her expense, including a Masters Degree which was necessary for any advancement after a point, she 'topped out' in the system 15 years before retiring at $65K a year.

Yes, she has a decent pension but she has more for her retirement from her own retirement investing and planning. The pension is, as she put it, 'going out to dinner' money while her own investments are her living money.

65K is certainly not a bad salary. It is comfortable and combined with her working husband, they lived a pretty decent life. But remember, too, she didn't reach that amount until after 30 years in the same job and she spent another 15 years never topping it.

It is not, however, 'rich' making. It is not an exorbitant amount of money that she was just being handed for doing nothing but 'working 9 months a year' and whatever other bullshit anti-teachers want to bitch about and make up.

I despise people who choose to vilify people who work for a living.

[lilwriter85]

I also disagree with the notion that no other job allows you to stay if you are a poor worker. Every organization I've dealt with has some workers who do not do a good job. Rude checkout clerks, mechanics who go days over their original estimate of completion, doctors who misdiagnose, the chef who makes a poor meal in a restaurant and the list could go on and on. Yes, some of those people will be fired but many will continue on in their positions regardless of less than stellar performance.

I have also seen various situations in which poor workers in different workplaces or career fields keep their jobs. I think Lori knows that, but she wanted to make it seem as if bad teachers are the only people who are never fired.

[kb2]

Maybe two teachers were married to each other, and their combined salaries were $100,000? But any way you look at it, she was being misleading on purpose.

Paying teachers more can attract better quality teachers--people who made it through higher degrees, have more experience, and in the case of late secondary education, studied their subject extensively. If we overpaid teachers a little bit, it would be a lot easier to demand more from them. Instead, we underpay them and then demand them to singlehandedly correct socioeconomic inequality in an overcrowded classroom with minimal supplies.

[Katiebug]

I live in a state with one of the highest rates of pay for teachers. The average starting salary for a teacher in Connecticut is somewhere upwards of $40K, with the average somewhere around $65K. Not stellar, and not six figures, but enough to live a reasonably comfortable middle-class lifestyle with really good benefits and working what are admittedly good hours for a working parent if the teacher in question is so inclined.

My three friends who are teachers have to be in to work by 7 AM, but leave by 2:30-3 PM every day. We did the math once and including Christmas break, winter break, spring break, and summer they have FAR more paid time off than I get (I have all of three weeks of vacation time each year and it took me 7 years of continuous service to get it). All three earn in the mid-$60K range annually as teachers without a master's or 6th year certificate, which is only a bit less than I earn as an engineer with two master's degrees. They'll top out at lower annual pay than I will in the long run unless they become administrators, but they all work a 7.5-8 hour day and get summers off with their young kids (no daycare expense for 2.5 months of the year saves a lot of money). Those who are tenured also have the ability to take a year of unpaid leave for the birth or adoption of a child and their job is held for them for that time. The medical insurance benefits are enviable.

Don't get me wrong, I'd lose my effing mind as a teacher and I don't think I'd be good at it. It absolutely wouldn't be the career for me! However in Connecticut there are a lot of benefits to going into teaching for those who choose to do it, including great benefits, a relative ton of paid time off/family-friendly work scheduling, and a decent amount of pay for the work done (unlike many places in the US). The average teacher I know makes around what an RN with a BSN or MSN would earn with a comparable degree of work experience since graduation.

The problem right now in CT is that we have a glut of young people with elementary ed certification and many school districts are laying off teachers and not hiring. If you have many of the secondary ed specialty certifications you can still get a job as a teacher, and with a special ed cert you can write your own ticket, but elementary ed, art, phys ed, etc? Forget about it. There are an awful lot of talented young men and women with bachelors and masters degrees and elementary ed certification working in parochial schools, before/after school programs, and daycares or preschools for much less money and crummy benefits because there simply aren't jobs available. Even if they can get in, many school districts have had to lay off teachers (or threaten to) and the new teachers without tenure are the ones at risk. The teachers in their late 20s/early 30s got in before the recession hit and are now usually tenured and thus safe. The young kids right out of school can't find jobs.

TL:DR but the teachers I know IRL are living a comfortable middle class lifestyle with decent pay and excellent benefits, but it's hard for new teachers to find a job nowadays. I recognize that this is a function of where I live and that teachers in other states are not as well-paid.

[mockingbird]

This is the current attitude in my hometown thanks to a hate campaign started by one of the school board members. It is in response to budget problems with our district. We have one of the highest-paying districts in the state and it's similar to what Katiebug described except in Ohio you have to have a master's (you can earn it while teaching but it has to be within a certain number of years). Some of the comments I have heard:

"I don't want to be paying for THEIR health insurance through my taxes."

"Why do teachers get good health insurance when mine is crap? It's not fair."

"They are just glorified babysitters."

"People who get 3 months off work a year shouldn't be paid that much."

"Teachers' salaries is the biggest expense in our district and that is a problem." (WTH? I agree with a comment on a news site that basically said, "We are a SCHOOL DISTRICT, what do you expect our biggest expense to be?")

"I work 9 to 5, teachers don't even work that long so shouldn't be paid this much."

"Teachers don't deserve to be paid $60K+ a year." (Usually followed by one of the other comments or "I don't get paid that much and I work more.")

Lori's rant is just like talking to most people in my hometown :(

All of this while praising the level of teaching and great programs in our district and not realizing that if we continue to fail to pass levies and alienate teachers through union busting and bully tactics our district is not going to stay as great as it was when I was in high school. We won't be able to attract good teachers if their pay rate is seriously cut and/or the quality/standards of our district decline, and won't have the funding for some of our extra programs (theatre, band, business, etc.). Previously to the budget/levy problems and anti-teacher campaign our district won a lot of awards. Who do you think is responsible for the success of our district so far? Surely NOT the teachers.

Within the past few years the teachers have made a lot of concessions in planning time available during the school day, amount of health benefits paid by the district, and class load. Because we had a big lay off a few years ago many of the teachers have more students and more classes than those in similar districts.

Katiebug to me you came off as neutral, but I just wanted to point out that although teachers have what seems like a shorter day and they do get a lot of vacation time (especially with summer) most of the teachers I know do not stop "working" once they leave the classroom - they put in more hours at home grading, lesson planning, etc. at night/on the weekends so the job doesn't really end with the shorter school day. I do think the schedule is pretty nice, but it's not as leisurely as some people expect.

[dairyfreelife]

I live in a state with one of the highest rates of pay for teachers. The average starting salary for a teacher in Connecticut is somewhere upwards of $40K, with the average somewhere around $65K. Not stellar, and not six figures, but enough to live a reasonably comfortable middle-class lifestyle with really good benefits and working what are admittedly good hours for a working parent if the teacher in question is so inclined.

My three friends who are teachers have to be in to work by 7 AM, but leave by 2:30-3 PM every day. We did the math once and including Christmas break, winter break, spring break, and summer they have FAR more paid time off than I get (I have all of three weeks of vacation time each year and it took me 7 years of continuous service to get it). All three earn in the mid-$60K range annually as teachers without a master's or 6th year certificate, which is only a bit less than I earn as an engineer with two master's degrees. They'll top out at lower annual pay than I will in the long run unless they become administrators, but they all work a 7.5-8 hour day and get summers off with their young kids (no daycare expense for 2.5 months of the year saves a lot of money). Those who are tenured also have the ability to take a year of unpaid leave for the birth or adoption of a child and their job is held for them for that time. The medical insurance benefits are enviable.

Don't get me wrong, I'd lose my effing mind as a teacher and I don't think I'd be good at it. It absolutely wouldn't be the career for me! However in Connecticut there are a lot of benefits to going into teaching for those who choose to do it, including great benefits, a relative ton of paid time off/family-friendly work scheduling, and a decent amount of pay for the work done (unlike many places in the US). The average teacher I know makes around what an RN with a BSN or MSN would earn with a comparable degree of work experience since graduation.

The problem right now in CT is that we have a glut of young people with elementary ed certification and many school districts are laying off teachers and not hiring. If you have many of the secondary ed specialty certifications you can still get a job as a teacher, and with a special ed cert you can write your own ticket, but elementary ed, art, phys ed, etc? Forget about it. There are an awful lot of talented young men and women with bachelors and masters degrees and elementary ed certification working in parochial schools, before/after school programs, and daycares or preschools for much less money and crummy benefits because there simply aren't jobs available. Even if they can get in, many school districts have had to lay off teachers (or threaten to) and the new teachers without tenure are the ones at risk. The teachers in their late 20s/early 30s got in before the recession hit and are now usually tenured and thus safe. The young kids right out of school can't find jobs.

TL:DR but the teachers I know IRL are living a comfortable middle class lifestyle with decent pay and excellent benefits, but it's hard for new teachers to find a job nowadays. I recognize that this is a function of where I live and that teachers in other states are not as well-paid.

Not sure about CT, but where I live (WV) teachers don't get paid for the three months they are on vacation. They're salaried for the nine months they work. There are two options: Get paid for nine months and nothing in the summer or take less pay throughout the nine months and spread it out for twelve. Either way it's the same amount. Most teachers also spend a lot of their own money as well. The average teacher I know spends around $500 min of their own money, not including the $300 stipend they get from the schools for supplies and items for children in their classrooms. In poorer districts, they easily spend even more. And as someone else said, most teachers work well beyond the school day grading and planning, etc.

Nursing and teaching are high stress jobs. We need teachers here, so young people could come down to WV, but they don't pay anywhere near as well. Cost of living is a lot cheaper, though, so they'd be fine. ;) But don't blame them for not wanting to come here.

[QueenNocturne]

This is the current attitude in my hometown thanks to a hate campaign started by one of the school board members. It is in response to budget problems with our district. We have one of the highest-paying districts in the state and it's similar to what Katiebug described except in Ohio you have to have a master's (you can earn it while teaching but it has to be within a certain number of years). Some of the comments I have heard:

"I don't want to be paying for THEIR health insurance through my taxes."

"Why do teachers get good health insurance when mine is crap? It's not fair."

"They are just glorified babysitters."

"People who get 3 months off work a year shouldn't be paid that much."

"Teachers' salaries is the biggest expense in our district and that is a problem." (WTH? I agree with a comment on a news site that basically said, "We are a SCHOOL DISTRICT, what do you expect our biggest expense to be?")

"I work 9 to 5, teachers don't even work that long so shouldn't be paid this much."

"Teachers don't deserve to be paid $60K+ a year." (Usually followed by one of the other comments or "I don't get paid that much and I work more.")

Lori's rant is just like talking to most people in my hometown :(

All of this while praising the level of teaching and great programs in our district and not realizing that if we continue to fail to pass levies and alienate teachers through union busting and bully tactics our district is not going to stay as great as it was when I was in high school. We won't be able to attract good teachers if their pay rate is seriously cut and/or the quality/standards of our district decline, and won't have the funding for some of our extra programs (theatre, band, business, etc.). Previously to the budget/levy problems and anti-teacher campaign our district won a lot of awards. Who do you think is responsible for the success of our district so far? Surely NOT the teachers.

Within the past few years the teachers have made a lot of concessions in planning time available during the school day, amount of health benefits paid by the district, and class load. Because we had a big lay off a few years ago many of the teachers have more students and more classes than those in similar districts.

Katiebug to me you came off as neutral, but I just wanted to point out that although teachers have what seems like a shorter day and they do get a lot of vacation time (especially with summer) most of the teachers I know do not stop "working" once they leave the classroom - they put in more hours at home grading, lesson planning, etc. at night/on the weekends so the job doesn't really end with the shorter school day. I do think the schedule is pretty nice, but it's not as leisurely as some people expect.

Mockingbird, I'm wondering if we went to the same school. A lot of it comes from people who don't have a lot of education or don't put a lot of value in education. It kills me how much people truly undervalue the role of a teacher.

[Wolfie]

IWe did the math once and including Christmas break, winter break, spring break, and summer they have FAR more paid time off than I get .

We only get paid for the time we are contracted to work. And in my case that means I don't get paid for a lot of time I do work. Some days I work 7:30- 3. Other days I'm working 7:30-5. And even other days I'm working 6 am-10pm. Sometimes that last thing is on a Saturday, which I don't get paid for, it's EXTRA. My insurance isn't great, and I pay for part of it (about $250 I have to cover, and next year it could go up to $400+ that I have to cover.) And the hours- well, just because I don't have students doesn't mean that I'm not working, I have prep that I have to do, and my district doesn't give all of their teachers prep time. And while we are supposed to have 1/2 hour lunch, that doesn't always happen. (just because we get 12 paychecks, doesn't mean we're paid for 12 months- it means that the districts make it easier for us to budget. When I started teaching I had a choice if I was paid for 10 or 12 months.)

My brother, with less education, makes more than I do as a public employee. He will max out at a lot more than I make. My dad was the same.

If you want to check out what teachers really make (before taxes and other required deductions are taken out, like health care and retirement) look at the district websites- I've found that the websites that claim to give accurate information aren't so accurate. But because we are public employees, its required to publish the salary schedules.

[amydamy]

Are we using nurses (perhaps the most famously underpaid profession ever) as a benchmark for being paid too much?

I'm an accountant and have a lot of friends from high school that are teachers, several in NJ which I think is on the higher end of teacher salaries , I'm pretty sure I out earn all of them. The one who comes closest has a masters and works in special education. Her job is incredibly stressful and I wouldn't do it for twice what she gets paid.

My MIL is a teacher and has people make comments about how she can afford a Lexus on a teachers salary but the only reason she has that car is my FIL is in a highly paid field.

[amydamy]

I also disagree with the notion that no other job allows you to stay if you are a poor worker. Every organization I've dealt with has some workers who do not do a good job. Rude checkout clerks, mechanics who go days over their original estimate of completion, doctors who misdiagnose, the chef who makes a poor meal in a restaurant and the list could go on and on. Yes, some of those people will be fired but many will continue on in their positions regardless of less than stellar performance.

I've worked with several fortune 100 companies that have people in high positions that I can not for the life of me figure out how they keep their jobs. One used to send emails that were so incomprehensible that it always took more than one person to figure out what he actually wanted. I think in most places you have to do something really really bad to be fired and even then if you know the right people you're OK. One place I worked the head of HR went to jail for manslaughter after he caused and accident that killed someone ( he intentionally cut someone off) and he still had his job when he got out.