Lori Alexander believes in force-feeding children

[CrazyCatLady]

in the past i worked with a child (psychologist) with major food issues as a result of being force fed. force feeding does NOTHING but harm. Lori is a complete idiot.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Lol, thank you experiencedd

Tabatha2, I'm not emmiedahl, but in my experience - both my own issues and witnessing others - people are a LOT more understanding about these sort of things than they were even 10 years ago or so. Schools have a lot of different lunch choices, or you send in stuff that the child can tolerate; family and friends will usually go out of their way to accommodate people with different needs and tastes; restaurants take special requests or already have items on the menu that cater to various food issues. The only real problem I've encountered has been the embarrassment, as an adult, to be seen as SUCH a picky eater. I've rarely been in a situation where I haven't had at least something that I can eat, and I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to find many adults "pickier" than I am.

Fortunately, more and more knowledge is becoming available re sensory issues and super-tasters. You'll still get people that will eye roll, but the majority of the people I come across are genuinely interested in it.

(And let me just say, from the perspective of the one with the sensory issues - it SUCKS and it is embarrassing as hell sometimes. I wish that I weren't stuck just eating rolls at certain get-togethers. It's not something that is a choice, and if those of us with these issues could just "get over it", I assure you, we would in a heartbeat.)

ETA - In a lot of situations, like with emmiedahl's little one, it's a matter of finding foods that the child can tolerate, and building onto those foods. He liked things like grapes and pickles, with a crispness/crunchiness to them, so we talked about other things with those textures, and also combining the things he already liked into new formats. (He liked blueberries, so let's try blueberries mixed with something else! He likes the feel of how grapes pop, let's try a hot dog since it has a similar oral sensation.) Once you start doing that, you'd be surprised at how much you can expand their tolerable food list so that it's more socially acceptable.

[emmiedahl]

How do prepare such a child for going off to school, visiting relatives or friends or just eating out-all those instances where you sometimes don't have a choice between eating or going without?

He has sensory issues and there is little I can do outside of tube feeding to get him to eat things he does not like. I am working with him to include more foods gradually, but it is hard. A few weeks ago I convinced him to eat a bite of chicken and the texture made him throw up. It's a neurological thing and punishing him for it would be like punishing a child for having seizures. I am sure we will be working with this issue for a while, hopefully working together rather than being enemies.

I have four other normal-picky kids and they have different expectations.

Thanks again, Kat!

[tabitha2]

Thank you for your answer.I as because i have never known anyone like that and i just wanted to know more.

[dairyfreelife]

Lol, thank you experiencedd

Tabatha2, I'm not emmiedahl, but in my experience - both my own issues and witnessing others - people are a LOT more understanding about these sort of things than they were even 10 years ago or so. Schools have a lot of different lunch choices, or you send in stuff that the child can tolerate; family and friends will usually go out of their way to accommodate people with different needs and tastes; restaurants take special requests or already have items on the menu that cater to various food issues. The only real problem I've encountered has been the embarrassment, as an adult, to be seen as SUCH a picky eater. I've rarely been in a situation where I haven't had at least something that I can eat, and I'm betting you'd be hard pressed to find many adults "pickier" than I am.

Fortunately, more and more knowledge is becoming available re sensory issues and super-tasters. You'll still get people that will eye roll, but the majority of the people I come across are genuinely interested in it.

(And let me just say, from the perspective of the one with the sensory issues - it SUCKS and it is embarrassing as hell sometimes. I wish that I weren't stuck just eating rolls at certain get-togethers. It's not something that is a choice, and if those of us with these issues could just "get over it", I assure you, we would in a heartbeat.)

We mention sensory issues as a concern for schools and eating out, what about food allergies and intolerances? Those aren't any different to me. Having a variety of food at places makes this easier.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Thank you for your answer.I as because i have never known anyone like that and i just wanted to know more.

It's something of a fascination with me, since I grew up like that and no one really seemed to listen to me when I said I *can't* eat these things. I'm not specially trained or anything, but I've dealt with a lot of kids with similar issues, so feel free to ask questions and I can try to answer. Also, google "super tasters" and you'll probably find some interesting information. I tend to fall somewhere in between sensory issue and super taster, which is...frustrating as fuck.

[StarrieEyedKat]

We mention sensory issues as a concern for schools and eating out, what about food allergies and intolerances? Those aren't any different to me. Having a variety of food at places makes this easier.

I generally lump them all together as well, as they all bring about pretty much the same challenge - finding something the kid/person is able to eat. I think the general public has MUCH more sympathy and exposure to those with allergies and intolerance, whereas they tend to see people with sensory issues as being picky. Hopefully, that's starting to change.

[tabitha2]

I grew up very,very poor and had to eat what was given so i might literally have starved had i not liked pretty much everything.

[Witsec7]

Our family was composed of three adults (my BIL lived with us) and the spawn. I was aware of everyones likes and dislikes. There was no way I was gonna feed anyone food they didn't want, esp. considering my family history. Menus were collaborative and we all traded off on cooking. We all dined at the table with a variety of foods to choose from. It was a bit less problematic than Emmies since we had a majority of adults, and I was the adult with a lot of mealtime deal breakers. The cooperative unit, i.e. the family, worked it out so no one was discomforted. I suspect Emmies situation is a bit more complicated since kids, and considering their needs and desires is in the fore, and the kids are in the majority, and she has tighter budget constrictions than I had in those days.

[Conuly]

How do prepare such a child for going off to school, visiting relatives or friends or just eating out-all those instances where you sometimes don't have a choice between eating or going without?

Presumably you pack a lunch for the first two scenarios and for the last you eat in advance and then try to order something in the restaurant that they CAN eat.

And, of course, since you're working on expanding their palates, you do the same thing in advance of these situations just in case they want to try a new food. You talk about how some foods taste or feel the same as others, you remind them that it's okay to taste something and spit it out (discreetly, thanks) if they don't like it (look, you're going for progress, and even putting it in their mouths is progress), you discuss polite ways to refuse an unwanted food ("no thanks" is better than "THAT IS SO GROSS! EW! YUCK! MOM, THEY'RE TRYING TO POISON ME!"), that sort of thing.

We mention sensory issues as a concern for schools and eating out, what about food allergies and intolerances? Those aren't any different to me. Having a variety of food at places makes this easier.

It's also important to remember that some children who seem picky or like they have sensory issues* actually have food allergies or intolerances. They avoid fish or carrots or eggs because those foods make them sick... but it might not be in a way that looks sick from the outside.

I have a dairy sensitivity that, when I was a child, manifested as mood swings. Violent, dramatic outbursts followed by hysterical laughter and then exhausted tears. But if my parents hadn't been very well-read on the subject, I doubt they would EVER have identified that as the trigger! It simply doesn't seem like the sort of thing you expect from something your kid eats!

So, yeah. There are a number of reasons your kid might not want to eat any particular food, or might avoid MANY foods. If you'd make an adaptation for an allergy, you can make an adaptation for another reason... which might be an allergy (or intolerance) in disguise.

* Incidentally, since we're talking about sensory sensitivities, it's not always true that sensory issues mean you only like bland foods. It's almost a stereotype that "picky eaters" will only eat white pasta, chicken nuggets, and applesauce. Although it's not much talked about, it's entirely possible to go the other way and crave very flavorful, spicy foods. Hence why I'm always overspicing when I cook. To me, it's just right! If it's bland, especially if it doesn't even have an interesting texture, there's a chance it might make me gag. I'm *not* a "picky eater", but craving flavor like this can have the same result - you're not sure if something will taste strong enough, so you always pick the safe bet. Or, like I did as a child, drown everything with copious amounts of mustard AND ketchup AND salt AND pepper. (Or, if it was sweet, cinnamon AND brown sugar AND nutmeg AND syrup.)

I grew up very,very poor and had to eat what was given so i might literally have starved had i not liked pretty much everything.

Which is unfortunate. Sometimes humans have to make tradeoffs between the best way to parent and the way that will at least ensure survival... or, in truly unfortunate situations, the way that will ensure survival for at least SOME of your children.

I doubt that Lori and her family are in such dire straits as that, though.

[TXDuck]

I grew up very,very poor and had to eat what was given so i might literally have starved had i not liked pretty much everything.

I sometimes worry about what would have happened to my son had he not been born into this family. He had celiac disease and (according to the counselor and pedal).this probably fueled his food issues for lack of a term. You can eventually get him to try new foods. But you have to introduce them the right way and accept when they've been rejected. And he will starve himself rather than eat something new or disliked. It would be the height of cruelty and parental failure to think he'll eat what's in front of him when he's hungry enough. No, he won't.

The vast majority of kids will learn to at least sample what's in front of them. A select few do not. And my heart breaks for those kids caught in fundie families. They, quite possibly, are the worst equipped for dealing appropriately with kids with issues.

[dairyfreelife]

Presumably you pack a lunch for the first two scenarios and for the last you eat in advance and then try to order something in the restaurant that they CAN eat.

And, of course, since you're working on expanding their palates, you do the same thing in advance of these situations just in case they want to try a new food. You talk about how some foods taste or feel the same as others, you remind them that it's okay to taste something and spit it out (discreetly, thanks) if they don't like it (look, you're going for progress, and even putting it in their mouths is progress), you discuss polite ways to refuse an unwanted food ("no thanks" is better than "THAT IS SO GROSS! EW! YUCK! MOM, THEY'RE TRYING TO POISON ME!"), that sort of thing.

It's also important to remember that some children who seem picky or like they have sensory issues* actually have food allergies or intolerances. They avoid fish or carrots or eggs because those foods make them sick... but it might not be in a way that looks sick from the outside.

I have a dairy sensitivity that, when I was a child, manifested as mood swings. Violent, dramatic outbursts followed by hysterical laughter and then exhausted tears. But if my parents hadn't been very well-read on the subject, I doubt they would EVER have identified that as the trigger! It simply doesn't seem like the sort of thing you expect from something your kid eats!

So, yeah. There are a number of reasons your kid might not want to eat any particular food, or might avoid MANY foods. If you'd make an adaptation for an allergy, you can make an adaptation for another reason... which might be an allergy (or intolerance) in disguise.

* Incidentally, since we're talking about sensory sensitivities, it's not always true that sensory issues mean you only like bland foods. It's almost a stereotype that "picky eaters" will only eat white pasta, chicken nuggets, and applesauce. Although it's not much talked about, it's entirely possible to go the other way and crave very flavorful, spicy foods. Hence why I'm always overspicing when I cook. To me, it's just right! If it's bland, especially if it doesn't even have an interesting texture, there's a chance it might make me gag. I'm *not* a "picky eater", but craving flavor like this can have the same result - you're not sure if something will taste strong enough, so you always pick the safe bet. Or, like I did as a child, drown everything with copious amounts of mustard AND ketchup AND salt AND pepper. (Or, if it was sweet, cinnamon AND brown sugar AND nutmeg AND syrup.)

Which is unfortunate. Sometimes humans have to make tradeoffs between the best way to parent and the way that will at least ensure survival... or, in truly unfortunate situations, the way that will ensure survival for at least SOME of your children.

I doubt that Lori and her family are in such dire straits as that, though.

My comment was the quoted there, you're preaching to the choir. ;) I think sensory should be treated the same and adults should work to find out why the child is refusing to eat the food. Not like it? Okay, fine. Something about bother you? Why do they have to eat that food? Find something else. Bananas often gave me a stomachache so I didn't eat them much. Now I learn I'm allergic mildly to them oddly enough. Severe lactose/casein intolerant here, and I did not develop that until I was in high school. A child can develop an allergy to a food or an intolerance. To me, it's selfish to force a child to eat something without even trying to learn what's upset the child about that food in the first place.

[Conuly]

More like trying to expand on what you said :)

(I really, really, really like things to be complete. Really complete. In high school I routinely got told that my essays were too long but that they had to give me a good grade anyway because they weren't bloated, just... complete.)

[Want More Babies]

Lori likes to tout herself as a Titus 2 mentor. The way her son is treating his precious "gift from God" shows how evil and vile her own teaching is and contrary to what Jesus Himself taught.

http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/7-9.htm

Lori is not a true follower of Jesus Christ and I am sure He would like for her to stop taking His name in vain.

Why anyone would even listen to what she has to say after this post is beyond me. Her true colors show more and more every day.

[Bloo]

dairyfreelife- as a fellow emetophobe, I hear you. The anxiety surrounding it was awful, especially in the days when I was young. My mother was stuck on the idea that you were only in danger of throwing up if your stomach hurt. In my case, that's patently untrue- it always manifests as a pushing, pressurized feeling in my throat. I would tell her that I felt like I was going to throw up, and she'd ask me how long my stomach had been hurting. I would tell her it didn't hurt, that my throat felt funny, and she'd interpret that to mean "sore." I got very frustrated as I didn't have the language to express it otherwise, and that just added to my horror with the whole thing. It was years before I learned that other people experienced this sensation as well.

Regarding food, this reminds me of a situation when I was about eight. One of my dad's favorite meals (and mine as well) is beef stroganoff. That particular night, he'd prepared the sauce on it. Now, my palate is EXTREMELY sensitive to spice. It's painful to me to eat pepperoni pizza because it's too spicy. I take one bite and say, "Daddy, this is spicy." He told me it wasn't (wtf, was I lying?) and to keep eating. Reluctantly I took another few bites, heavily meted by whatever beverage I had that night. It still made my mouth tingle painfully. Dad then said, "You know, it is a bit spicy. I'm going to have a look at the paprika I used." We all go into the kitchen and the paprika is shut, sealed, and put away. Instead, out with the other ingredients, was cayenne pepper. THEN he felt bad about what he made me eat. Still, I can't help but be a little angry that he dismissed me at first, until he was able to detect something. I was by no means a picky eater, either, and I loved that particular dish. But my dad is like the fundies in one major way- his opinion matters, but no one else's does.

[YPestis]

I will clarify what I have stated in regards to cooking separate meals for kids who refuse what's on their plate. I still stand by the idea that most kids who refuse to eat their dinner are doing this for nonmedical reasons.

I was a brat when I would pick at my food and my parents made it worse by cooking me foods I wanted rather than what was available. My SO was the same way. I know there are kids who have eating disorders and neurologic reasons for not eating but those are in the minority. I don't think most kids feel like they would vomit if forced to eat certain foods whether due to its textures or taste. I feel most just don't want to eat it because chips and cupcakes just taste better.

Nowhere in history have we seen such a diversity of food. If sensory disorder was commonly the reason for food aversion in children, then most children would starve to death in the past. For most of human history, and up until just this past century, our diet was unvarying and very limited. Kids were told they could eat with available or not eat at all because no one could afford anything different. There's not a sudden increase in sensory disorders in the last 20 years. Most kids who refuse to eat because they don't feel hungry or merely don't like what's in front of them.

My parents grew up in a third world country and they have often told me that they only noticed a raise in finicky eaters when the country became abundant with food. It wasn't for neurologic reasons that kids were refusing to eat certain basic staples, it was because kids preferred eating the cookies and ice cream than their vegetables. When my dad was growing up, the only foods available were rice and veggies. He was always hungry because there was a famine and never picked at his food.

Growing up in better economic times, my parents cooked me separate meals if I didn't eat what was in front of me. I feel that only worsened my finicky eating habits. Strangely, I never felt the same finickiness when I was in someone else's home where it was rude to refuse to eat what was offered to me (or to demand a separate meal).

My SO, who is a great lover of food, was even more indulged than I was when it came to food. He and his brother each had their own food quirks so their mother would often cook separate meals for each boy. Neither had special medical reasons for not liking peas or eggs. There are no texture aversion from them, no nausea or vomiting inducing gagging from foods they dont' like. They merely disliked certain foods. Their mother once told me she sometimes cooked herself to exhaustion cooking separate meals. Both our families enjoy home cooked, elaborate meals. To cook a separate meal isn't about opening up a can, it's washing, cutting, baking, stir-frying. It was no small feat for us kids to demand a separate meals from the parents.

Interestingly enough, my SO refuse to do that with me. He knows what I don't like but if he accidentally cooks something not to my liking, he refuses to prepare a separate meal unless it's very simple (like pasta).

That's one of the main reasons I feel I will never cook my kids a separate meal if they don't like what's in front of them. I know the reasons for my picky eating and my SO knows his reasons for it. I don't think we are unique or rare in why we picked at our food. Yes, there are real medical reasons for avoiding certain foods, but most kids don't have that. Someone asked why can adults have food preferences and children can't? Well, most responsible adults eat foods they dislike like veggies, and learn to avoid too much ice cream. I don't know too many five year olds who have the self control to do that. I would make an attempt to cook something that everyone can eat, but sometimes, you just have to draw a line and tell kids to live with what's on the table.

[HoneyBunny]

How does one force a screaming 15-month old to eat twenty bites of something she doesn't want? Really? 'Cause i really don't know. If he shoved the food in her screaming little mouth, wouldn't she have spit it out, or choked on it? She's a baby, for pete's sake. I'm having bad dreams here of her father's huge hand clamped over her open mouth while she's trying to cry and it's making me feel really, really ill. WWJD? I don't think he'd do that.

[Mama Mia]

I don't understand why more people don't just take a middle ground --- make a meal you think most people will like at least part of -- and stock some simple, nutritious, foods that anyone over the age of 3 should be able to fetch for themselves. Even a very, very young child can grab an apple and string cheese or carrot sticks and yogurt. And once they are 5 ish they should be able to pour their own healthy cereal or make a peanut butter sandwich.

That way you aren't force feeding or starving your children or waiting on them hand and foot. Most of the time they will probably like something you made ( especially if you do such a good job of thinking about textures etc like emmiedahl ), and if they don't they will not go hungry but will realize they have to do the work themselves.

[nomoxian]

The thread starter story is so sad, but the stories other people have told are intriguing and got me thinking...

When I was a kid my doctor told my parents that getting me to stop being a picky eater would be to get me to eat by serving the foods they wanted me to eat. They didn't serve any chicken, beef, pasta or other foods I liked. I ended up starving for 2 weeks and got an ammonia. Doctor said I was the "most stobborn" patient he had seen in all his decades of practice, and after that my parents let me eat what I wanted (As an adult, I only 'remember' this via what I've been told) A few years ago, when I really tried to be adventurous with food and tried a bunch of new things, I ended up going into shock. Got an allergy test and it showed that a lot of the foods I didn't like as a kid were things that could quite literally kill me.

And the texture thing does me in! For example, I can have bananas in a smoothie but I'd gag if I bit into one, and I love ketchup but you couldn't pay me to eat a tomato

[Sunnichick31]

I hate that people think it's OK to force kids to eat things they don't like. Odds are, if you let a child control their own diet (to a certain point, anyway.) they'll be fine. For example- I can't stand tomatos unless they are in sauce form. Does that mean that I was horribly malnoished as a child because I didn't like a vegetable? No. I still ate carrots and brocolli and cauliflower and corn and loads of other things. No big deal, I didn't (and still don't) like any melon other than watermelon. Does that mean that I ended up with all sorts of vitamin deficencies? No, because I still ate apples and oranges and cherries (don't you dare get between me and a bag of cherries!) and rasberries and loads of other fruits. As long as kids have healthy options and do NOT have the option of having cake for dinner, they will do just fine on their own, and they will figure out what they do and do not like. Some things may just be childhood pickyness, others may be hated for life.

(oh, and someone mentioned that forcing a kid to eat foods they don't like may scar them for life. It's true, LOL. I don't have panic attacks or go into fits of hysteria whenever I see cantalope, but I do remember that when I was in daycare, I ended up in time out because i refused to finish the cantalope I was given and I wouldn't stop crying (I was like, 3.) cause I didn't want to be in time out, but I didn't want to eat it either. I still remember that. it's nothing major compared to what other people might go through, but it proves that this stuff sticks with you.)

[Koala]

I don't understand why more people don't just take a middle ground --- make a meal you think most people will like at least part of -- and stock some simple, nutritious, foods that anyone over the age of 3 should be able to fetch for themselves. Even a very, very young child can grab an apple and string cheese or carrot sticks and yogurt. And once they are 5 ish they should be able to pour their own healthy cereal or make a peanut butter sandwich.

That way you aren't force feeding or starving your children or waiting on them hand and foot. Most of the time they will probably like something you made ( especially if you do such a good job of thinking about textures etc like emmiedahl ), and if they don't they will not go hungry but will realize they have to do the work themselves.

Exactly. We have always done that with our kids and they eat very well to my way of thinking.

[Koala]

I don't think most kids feel like they would vomit if forced to eat certain foods whether due to its textures or taste. I feel most just don't want to eat it because chips and cupcakes just taste better.

I know a lot of parents, but none of them allow their kids cupcakes or chips in place of meals. :? What I've heard (some) people saying is that they offer their kids cereal or a sandwich w/ some fruit. Not really comparable with cupcakes and chips.

Interestingly enough, my SO refuse to do that with me. He knows what I don't like but if he accidentally cooks something not to my liking, he refuses to prepare a separate meal unless it's very simple (like pasta).

That's one of the main reasons I feel I will never cook my kids a separate meal if they don't like what's in front of them.

:shock: Huh? Sounds like your SO has set some firm guidelines. I guess I understand though. He probably doesn't want you filling up on cupcakes and chips. :roll:

Seriously, how old are you? If you don't like what he cooks, then make something for yourself.

Someone asked why can adults have food preferences and children can't? Well, most responsible adults eat foods they dislike like veggies, and learn to avoid too much ice cream. I don't know too many five year olds who have the self control to do that. I would make an attempt to cook something that everyone can eat, but sometimes, you just have to draw a line and tell kids to live with what's on the table.

The adults I know don't eat things they dislike. They pass on them and eat other healthy things they do like. You talk as if they only healthy options are what's on the table. That's not true. You can allow a child to choose from many healthy foods that they like without forcing them to eat whatever you decided to cook for dinner. This has nothing to do with whether a 5 year old has self control or not. You still do the grocery shopping a decide which foods come into the house. You don't have to cook a 2nd meal if your child doesn't like what you're having. You simply allow them to have a turkey sandwich with some veggies or fruit.

[HoneyBunny]

I just, for the first time, left a message for dear Lori. First thing this morning I'm wondering how someone forces a 15-month old to eat. I can't get away from this. Did he beat her between bites? Withhold her air? It sounds just horribly horrible, awfully awful. I'm all for letting a toddler know that she isn't going to get her way all the time. But how does one get a toddler to chew and swallow food she doesn't want? What Lori glosses over and praises as her son being a "good daddy", I have a feeling went down much, much more evil-y.

[formergothardite]

Do you at least get to go fix your own meal if you SO fixes something you don't like?

I'm an adult and there are a ton of foods I don't eat. Why would I force myself to eat something I hated? Life is too short to eat yucky food.

[Witsec7]

Do you at least get to go fix your own meal if you SO fixes something you don't like?

I'm an adult and there are a ton of foods I don't eat. Why would I force myself to eat something I hated? Life is too short to eat yucky food.

Amen to the bold. I do so enjoy cooking what I want to eat. The whole concept of eating something you don't like because an intimate refused to consider your preferences doesn't sit well with me.